59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[lariko]

It doesn't take me 7 jumps to identify a poor jumper...

Now they will be rewarded and validated for being poor jumpers.

 

[lariko]

Should we compare the technical content of spins and step sequences and pair lifts now vs. 25 years ago?

Certainly one might prefer the earlier elements aesthetically.

(Personally I find beautiful and ugly, interesting and boring in both 6.0 and IJS eras, both simple and complex elements.)

But in terms of "higher faster stronger," skaters have certainly been pushing the envelope technically in those elements as well as in jumps.

And also in connections between elements, at least to some degree. Compared to the double-jump era (maybe with a few triples), not so much. Modern skaters tend not to have the rock-solid edges that figures-era skaters did, and the best skaters in that era were capable of fast crossovers and simple turns at speed, but combining complexity and speed at the same time has probably advanced significantly.

Personally, I want to see recognition of the technical difficulty of all sorts of elements, not just jumps, recognized and rewarded as athletic accomplishments. And mastery at the different kinds of technical skills rewarded, such that someone who excels more at blade-to-ice skills than in-air rotations can legitimately deserve higher technical scores based on mastery of those on-ice techniques, with scoring and program construction balanced to reward all these different kinds of skills.

Obviously anyone who can master highest difficulty in all kinds of technical skills including in-air rotation is going to have the best chance of winning medals.

And then of course there are the "artistic" areas of composition and presentation, which still count and can become deciding factors in otherwise close contests. But that's a separate issue than technical advancement.

Not at the expense of jumps.

 

[4everchan]

Now they will be rewarded and validated for being poor jumpers.

I think you are mistaken. Each jump will be even more important. Stronger jumpers who do higher base value will still remain wildly ahead. PCS will not be scored differently which means that it will not be the deciding factor. Trust me, your fave is safe.

 

[TT_Fin]

Someone elses' faves are safe, someone elses' (<-she there maybe the one of them) interest: gone.

 

[lariko]

I think you are mistaken. Each jump will be even more important. Stronger jumpers who do higher base value will still remain wildly ahead. PCS will not be scored differently which means that it will not be the deciding factor. Trust me, your fave is safe.

No, PCS with its huge proration factor will strongly dominate with 6 jumping passes. Don't you understand math? PCS bucket remains FIXED and HUGE, with those crazy multipliers that are in place based on old, higher absolute value average TES, while TES bucket loses BV and GOE on one whole jump, skewing things even more toward PCS dominance that was already way too obvious. And given how bias and unfair GOE is already, they will manipulate, manipulate and manipulate until quads are either 4+ or not at all proposition. When most athlets can solidly perform only one or two quads. Which means they won't show the max they can, that they won't, because clean triples are better, particularly in women.

On the other hand, Malinin is pushed to the insane degrees of risk, because of purely bias judgment calls. Sure, he finally received GOE he deserved at the Worlds, thank goodness, but before that they nickel and dimed his jumps. And that's what the next jumping athlets would face if God forbid they are not loveable goofballs.

It's not about favorites. I mean, unless Mozalev is the going to become Russia's national champion this season under new ruleset, which I don't see how it can happen. It's about what the programs will look like to win the most pluses under the new rules, and the programs in general will skew toward minimizing attempted jumping content. This is clearly an anti-jump ruling.

 

[Jammers]

How long has there been 7 jumping passes in skating? Anyone know?

 

[lariko]

How long has there been 7 jumping passes in skating? Anyone know?

Since at least 2014

 

[TontoK]

I think you are mistaken. Each jump will be even more important. Stronger jumpers who do higher base value will still remain wildly ahead. PCS will not be scored differently which means that it will not be the deciding factor. Trust me, your fave is safe.

Well then, what's the point?

We're doing this just so the type of skater you enjoy won't get trounced as badly on the scoreboard?

 

[4everchan]

Well then, what's the point?

We're doing this just so the type of skater you enjoy won't get trounced as badly on the scoreboard?

the point is that one less pass, can help create better programs. right now it's skate skate skate to the corner, and jump... repeat ... it also sends the message with the raise in spins and steps, even if marginal, that whole package skaters will be rewarded. Some of you guys are obsessed with how it could influence one skater or another... it's not the point of this change of rules.. it's to shape better programs... It will not affect so much the skaters in terms of ranking but it may create a better experience overall for the fans, which is what we should all want.

 

[Magill]

Now they will be rewarded and validated for being poor jumpers.

No. Poor overall skaters will have it a tiny bit more difficult to be guaranteed a win just skating in circles from jump to jump, or at least I hope so

 

[lariko]

Plus, if every jumping pass is even more critical than before, this means the skater needs to focus even more on delivering each jumping pass cleanly and with flawless technique. Which Malinin appropriately did to ensure a clean skate during the Worlds under insane stress. But that immediately carried the tidal wave of criticisms and nose-holding that this is (duh!) not artistic and people wailed for lower PCS.

 

[4everchan]

No, PCS with its huge proration factor will strongly dominate with 6 jumping passes. Don't you understand math?

LOL... better than you may imagine. PCS were supposed to be equal to BV. It's not the case when some skaters can go up to 120-130 in BV and top skaters will get about 95 in PC. Also, the top skaters in BV are WAY ahead of the pack while the top PCS skaters are 15%-20% higher only.
If you ask me if I understand math, sometimes I wonder if some fans understand figure skating.

 

[lariko]

the point is that one less pass, can help create better programs. right now it's skate skate skate to the corner, and jump... repeat ... it also sends the message with the raise in spins and steps, even if marginal, that whole package skaters will be rewarded. Some of you guys are obsessed with how it could influence one skater or another... it's not the point of this change of rules.. it's to shape better programs... It will not affect so much the skaters in terms of ranking but it may create a better experience overall for the fans, which is what we should all want.

Wrong.

 

[4everchan]

Plus, if every jumping pass is even more critical than before, this means the skater needs to focus even more on delivering each jumping pass cleanly and with flawless technique. Which Malinin appropriately did to ensure a clean skate during the Worlds under insane stress. But that immediately carried the tidal wave of criticisms and nose-holding that this is (duh!) not artistic and people wailed for lower PCS.

with one less jumping pass, Malinin may be able to show what he has other than fabulous jumping. It remains to be seen... but in your ideal world, Malinin would manage to do more with choreography with the added time and shut down the naysayers. I am waiting for it

 

[lariko]

LOL... better than you may imagine. PCS were supposed to be equal to BV. It's not the case when some skaters can go up to 120-130 in BV and top skaters will get about 95 in PC. Also, the top skaters in BV are WAY ahead of the pack while the top PCS skaters are 15%-20% higher only.
If you ask me if I understand math, sometimes I wonder if some fans understand figure skating.

Not with the GoE corrections and manipulations, otherwise Brown won't be so high in rankings with a popped double and no quads.

 

[4everchan]

Not with the GoE corrections and manipulations, otherwise Brown won't be so high in rankings with a popped double and no quads.

Jason didn't place so highly because of what he did well... he placed so highly because of what others did do badly.
And that is why, he is often near the top but has never medaled at worlds/olympics. He doesn't have the firepower to do so. He remains in the top ten because of his exquisite care to details and good positions. I am not a Jason Brown fan, but I do appreciate what he does.
Since I don't know math : popping a double axel makes a skater lose just over 3 points... Popping a quad makes a skater lose about 10 points...

 

[lariko]

with one less jumping pass, Malinin may be able to show what he has other than fabulous jumping. It remains to be seen... but in your ideal world, Malinin would manage to do more with choreography with the added time and shut down the naysayers. I am waiting for it

He has more choreo than most skaters with 7 passes already. They will always say that he won't just like they said he wasn't bending his knees deep enough and that's why his GoEs should be 1.

 

[lariko]

Jason didn't place so highly because of what he did well... he placed so highly because of what others did do badly.
And that is why, he is often near the top but has never medaled at worlds/olympics. He doesn't have the firepower to do so. He remains in the top ten because of his exquisite care to details and good positions. I am not a Jason Brown fan, but I do appreciate what he does.
Since I don't know math : popping a double axel makes a skater lose just over 3 points... Popping a quad makes a skater lose about 10 points...

Which is why the change in rules will nerf attempted jumping content across the field.

With previous balance of TES vs PCS, at least the higher jumping content was somewhat close to the top. Now it would be forced out because PCSs would wipe out TES.

 

[4everchan]

He has more choreo than most skaters with 7 passes already. They will always say that he won't just like they said he wasn't bending his knees deep enough and that's why his GoEs should be 1.

you know... i am fine praising Ilia for everything he does well and very fine he won worlds. And I am fine with people calling his flaws because he is not the perfect skater. That's just it.
One last time, the new rules won't affect Ilia's results. Let's stop with the demagogy

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Just changing the subject, the things I am most interested in were dealt with last night, and I am not sure what happened with all of them.

Firstly, was last year's decision to bring back pre-qualifying for the Majors reversed? (It was stupid to even think of bringing it back in the first place! It doesn't shorten an event - it lengthens it!)

Secondly, what about the numbers going through to the Free in the Majors (particularly in regards the Pairs)? Did they reverse last year's decision to reduce them?

Thirdly, what was the decision over the start orders in the Free? Did they do the sensible thing and reverse last year's decision to scrap doing it as the reverse order of the results from the Short?

CaroLiza_fan