Age limit issue revisited; an article on young athletes & big injuries | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Age limit issue revisited; an article on young athletes & big injuries

High performance sports is related to a number of medical and psychological issues and is often criticised...
You've got my vote for the Post of the Decade! :yes: :clap: :clap: :clap: :rock:

However, as Feraina points out, the conclusion of all these data is to forbid our daughters to compete in high level sports at all. Certainly we see a lot of freakish ex-gynmasts, with squeaky voices, arrested growth, and various hormonal imbalances, paying for the rest of their lives for winning a gold medal at 14.

Not to mention the East German lady swimmers of a generation ago with their bass voices, big heads, craggy features, beards and chest hair.

The part that is not so clear is whether having an age limit for competing as a senior in figure skating does anything to address these problems.

In fact, with the CoP placing a premium on big tricks, I can foresee a day when the Juniors are the best in the sport, with Senior competitons held only for reasons of nostalgia (again, like gymnastics -- no twenty-year-old woman in the world can possibly compete in that sport against just-turned-16 Shawn Johnson).

The best women gymnasts in the world (1908 Olympics)

The best "woman" gymnast of 2007

About pyschological stress, it often seems like the very youngest competitors, like Tara Lipinski at the 1998 Olympics, just go out there and do their thing, while skaters a few years older feel the weight of exceptations a lot more.
 
You've got my vote for the Post of the Decade! :yes: :clap: :clap: :clap: :rock:

However, as Feraina points out, the conclusion of all these data is to forbid our daughters to compete in high level sports at all. ...

About pyschological stress, it often seems like the very youngest competitors, like Tara Lipinski at the 1998 Olympics, just go out there and do their thing, while skaters a few years older feel the weight of exceptations a lot more.

I agree it is the post of the decade.

I disagree that the conclusion means women cannot compete in hiigh level sports at all. After all, Irina Slutskaya has not had a lot of skating related injuries; I don't recall reading a lot about Maria Butyrskaya getting hurt a lot, and, Michelle probably could have retired with two Oly medals and 5 world titles and still saved her hip -- and that is just skating.

Also, I'm not sure if the ability of some (like Tara or Sarah) to "go out there and do their thing" is due to their youth or to their status as the "underdog" with the weight of expectations on other shoulders from the outset.
 
The part that is not so clear is whether having an age limit for competing as a senior in figure skating does anything to address these problems.

Exactly!

In fact, with the CoP placing a premium on big tricks, I can foresee a day when the Juniors are the best in the sport, with Senior competitons held only for reasons of nostalgia.

Gosh, you mean like the senior circuit would be like the old "professional" circuit, and the junior circuit will become the "amateur" circuit? Not inconceivable! :biggrin: That's the direction this is going anyway! There were more 3-3's in the ladies event at '06 JW than there were at the Olympics in the same year. And the technical content of the '08 JW among the top competitors will be similar in difficulty to the top WC competitors. Don't forget that Caroline had the highest TES in the SP and the second highest TES in the LP at the GPF, even though she's hardly considered to be an especially good jumper.

If we were to raise the GP age limit to 15 to be in line with the ISU championships, as some have been suggesting, then I think that would encourage this trend even more. After all, 3-3's and 3A's and quads are allowed by junior ladies (and have been successfully landed there). I _really_ don't see the point of how age limit at ISU senior competitions help to protect young athletes' bodies. And the hip/back-destroying spins are also practiced at the junior and even lower levels.

Yu-na Kim already tapered down or stopped altogether doing some ueber-flexible moves like the ina bauer, by the time she entered senior competition. Her back/hip woes are probably related to her relatively inflexible back and the repetitive stress of practicing all her ueber-flexible moves.
 
^Yuna dosn't do any extreme flexability moves. An ina bauer dosn't take that much flexiblity, and she does have a resonably flexible back, not super bendy, by respectable. Injuries related to flexblity issues and training flexablity come from doing too much too fast. If yuna's body wasn't physically capable of doing an ina bauer or a nice back bend, she wouldn't be able to do them at all. Injuries caused by stretching come from bad or inexperianced coaching/training or a person not knowing their limits and going too far.
 
Medusa - Best Post Ever! Thank you.

Part of the reason young girls tend to be so fearless is that their frontal cortex has not yet closed. This is where the doubt and flee or flight mechanism is located. Once it closes - usually within 1 year of menarche you will see signs of self doubt, self image; whether positive or negative.
This also leads into the time when the body is changing and their mind is as well. Kimmie is facing that and it is tough to get through. However some do and I think Kimmie may.

The Russian way years ago was to take the girls off the ice during their growth time. This prevented injury from stress on joints and the mind. They did train in other areas to keep their bodies in shape - but just not with the skates on. I do not know if Irina or Maria were part of that generation or if it was before their time. However I remember Katia Gordeeva took a period of time off during her growth to prevent injury.

I think it is important to understand that just because kids train at high levels for their sport doesn't mean that they are being abused. But, I love all the information given and think there is much to be learned by it.

More than anything, coaches and parents have to think of the kids not as machines who must be driven and pushed until they leave the sport but as children who will one day be adults and hopefully have good memories of their childhood.
 
Yu-na Kim already tapered down or stopped altogether doing some ueber-flexible moves like the ina bauer, by the time she entered senior competition. Her back/hip woes are probably related to her relatively inflexible back and the repetitive stress of practicing all her ueber-flexible moves.


I'm not so sure that YuNa's lack of uber-flexibility is the cause of chronic injuries. Someone uploaded the special on youtube of a Korean TV program where the crew documented YuNa's training regiment for several months prior to 2007 GPF, and it sounds like her injuries really began when she kept falling due to her ill-fitting boots. Wasn't her issue with boots a big concern in 2006? The constant falling because she couldn't find the proper fitting boots led to her hip injury, which then caused her back injury.

YuNa was relatively healthy prior to the beginning of her boot issue. It's also amazing that she was never properly fitted like other top skaters. I wonder what her health might have been had she not had the boot issue...
 
Also, I'm not sure if the ability of some (like Tara or Sarah) to "go out there and do their thing" is due to their youth or to their status as the "underdog" with the weight of expectations on other shoulders from the outset.

That's how I feel

Tara said in an interview (it's shown five bazillion times at nationals each year before the ladies skate) that she figured Michelle had won so she just went out and skated.

Sarah - same thing, she just wanted a good skate at the olympics and figured her time would be in 06...

I don't think Michelle's age was the factor as so much as who she was. From the time she stepped on senior ice she was pretty much dubbed the it girl the one who would rule figure skating by the US media... she went on to fulfill most of those expectations, the only one she didn't was being Olympic Champion - a title she wanted desperately as well... I think she and the US media put the pressure on her shoulders, and I don't think age was the reason (after all in 06 it was all about Emily and Kimmie because they were TEENs and TEENs ALWAYS win olympic Gold in skating... or so says NBC)
 
I agree it is the post of the decade.

I disagree that the conclusion means women cannot compete in hiigh level sports at all. After all, Irina Slutskaya has not had a lot of skating related injuries; I don't recall reading a lot about Maria Butyrskaya getting hurt a lot, and, Michelle probably could have retired with two Oly medals and 5 world titles and still saved her hip -- and that is just skating.

Well, that wasn't really my conclusion. My intention was to show readers the medical and psychological aspects of intensive training at such a young age. There will always be elite athletes at a young age - as there will always be young musicians who spend 5 hours a day playing the piano and perform at concerts at the age of 10 (which is from a psychological standpoint as dangerous as high-performance sports).

What I can't stand is the carelessness some people here voice their opinions concerning this matter - basically ignoring medical issues and also the athlete's wellfare.

The cure is not to raise the age limit even higher (but it should be 16!), it is not to ban children from intensive training. What I would like to see is a system that accepts the youth of the skaters, protects the young skaters and cares for them. There should be rules about the number of shows a kid is allowed to perform in (you cannot work at McDonalds at the age of 14 - why should you be allowed to perform in numerous shows at that age?). Let them do a show here and there, let them guest star, but there should be rules and controls.

Regular psychological and physical examinations. Is the kid relatively healthy, is the kid reasonably happy, are there signs of an eating-disorder... I don't know what is true about the rumours about Mira Leung's mother - but it all sounds very scary to me. So there should be supervision, schooling for the parents - what are the signs of eating disorders, when should my kid seek psychological counselling, how do I keep the kid fit and healthy?

I am also against home-schooling, I think that a child should have more than just the sport. But then again - home-schooling is forbidden in Germany (you can be jailed if your kids don't go to school) so I might be politically biased concerning that matter. There are special boarding schools for child-athletes here. If that is better than home-schooling - I don't know.

I wouldn't be here if I thought that intensive training shouldn't be allowed at a young age, all these athletes started at a young age - I know that and accept that. But I still think that the whole system is very flawed (not just in the US and Japan, but probably in most countries) and it doesn't consider the needs of children.

By the way - I didn't know that there was an award for the post of the decade ;-) But thanks!
 
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...after all in 06 it was all about Emily and Kimmie because they were TEENs and TEENs ALWAYS win olympic Gold in skating... or so says NBC.
Yeah, it makes us wonder what might have happened if Mao Asada had been allowed to skate. Would she have dropped a couple of triple Axels and a triple-triple-triple on the cautious old ladies' heads?
 
Yeah, it makes us wonder what might have happened if Mao Asada had been allowed to skate. Would she have dropped a couple of triple Axels and a triple-triple-triple on the cautious old ladies' heads?

But if she did go, wouldn't she have been the overwhelming favorite, with all the pressure that brings?
 
age restriction needs to be lifted. We all know the scientific fact that most girls have to master all difficult jumps prior to growth spurt (13,14 years old)in order to compete as world class skaters. It's moot to ask girls to postpone their practice of harder jumps until growth spurt because there's almost no chance that an elite female skater can add technically demand element such as 3lutz/3flip, 3+3, 3A on a consistent basis afterwards. Canada used to train their ladies this way, the results have not been very encouraging at all.

Many, if not most female skaters' technical ability has deteriorated dramatically after growth spurt.

Female skaters' active 'skating life' is already quite short, why should ISU restrict them even further?

This is EXACTLY what scares me about the sport! Force girls who have not yet completed their growing process to train the most physically damaging aspects because when they physically mature (if they physically mature) they WON'T be able to do them. This reminds me of using little children in factory work at the turn of century because they had little hands to get into dangerous machinery easier! I don't think I want to be a fan of a sport that someone over 15 yrs old and 85 pounds can't do. Or where mutilating a child's body through injury and halting the natural growth process is the only way to win. Ick! Why should a female skater NOT be able to compete for ten years if she wishes? Why should the sport be so damaging as to chew up a child of 16 and prevent her, without surgery, from being able to live a normal life (ala Tara)?
The intensive training often stops the natural growth of girls. Then a girl has an injury and can't skate for even a few brief months, the body takes over and she shoots up. Too bad little girl! You can only play if you stay a child and getting hurt in the process sc*ws you over!

Then there is the argument that to keep a skater out of the Olys because of her age ruins her chance. Really? To me that argues that said skater really isn't that good. If she is phenom now then she ought to be that good in another four years. Otherwise she is a flash in the pan more dependant on her physical immaturity then actual talent or skating skills. Other girls will come along, but she will have to be good enough to beat them, same as she would have had to beat the current crew. Maybe she will get too injured to compete in four years. There is that problem again of chewing up children in pursuit of the sport. Imagine if Messiner had won the Olympics and followed the same course she is on now. Or look at S. Hughes. In some ways it makes you question a sport where the athlete who has compete for a year or two, can win a huge prize can't sustain even passible levels of ability a year or two later. What is wrong with this picture?

I do think the age limitations ought to be consistent across the board. 15 yrs old for seniors girls. The argument that it will cause some poor girls to cool their heels in junior is a little silly. There are the rare jumping phenoms at 12 but they generally lack the basic skating skills to even compete really well at the junior level. At that 14-15 yr age we are only talking about one season at the juniro level. One "extra" year in juniors didn't seem to hurt Nagasu at all.
 
This is EXACTLY what scares me about the sport! Force girls who have not yet completed their growing process to train the most physically damaging aspects because when they physically mature (if they physically mature) they WON'T be able to do them. ..

You are exaggerating the situation. How about gymnastics? diving?It's even worse. All those little girls and boys doing tumbling and all those difficult and DANGEROUS stuff on a daily basis.

FS is much safer IMHO. Do not assume those little elite skaters are FORCED to train hard elements, they are NOT.
 
You are exaggerating the situation. How about gymnastics? diving?It's even worse. All those little girls and boys doing tumbling and all those difficult and DANGEROUS stuff on a daily basis.

FS is much safer IMHO. Do not assume those little elite skaters are FORCED to train hard elements, they are NOT.

Nobody is saying that diving or gymnastics are better - but just because there are sports out there that seem to be even more dangerous we should ignore the dangers of figure skating and intensive training at such a young age?

Of course lots of the young skaters want to improve and try new stuff, train hard elements. But lots of children also want to eat chocolate and sweets non-stop - and we don't permit that either! That's why they are called CHILDREN - they cannot vote, they aren't allowed to decide for themselves, they have parents whose job is to protect the children, from others and from themselves.
 
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Of course lots of the young skaters want to improve and try new stuff, train hard elements. But lots of children also want to eat chocolate and sweets non-stop - and we don't permit that either! That's why they are called CHILDREN - they cannot vote, they aren't allowed to decide for themselves, they have parents whose job is to protect the children, from others and from themselves.

Do you really believe female skaters need to wait after 16-17 to train harder jumps such as 3+3 etc? Its never going to work.
 
Do you really believe female skaters need to wait after 16-17 to train harder jumps such as 3+3 etc? Its never going to work.

Well, if I have to decide between seeing Triple-Triple-Combos at competitions and having less young girls terribly injured and emotionally distressed at an early age - I choose the wellfare of the young ladies / children. What we see and hear about is just the tip of the iceberg - how many promising skaters, gymnasts, ballet-dancers and divers were promising at the age of 10 to 12, got injured, never fulfilled their potential and are still handicapped by their injuries? If a big trick in figure skating or gymnastics is so dangerous and stressful on the body, so difficult that just tiny girls can learn it - perhaps it's time to say goodbye to that trick.
 
Do you really believe female skaters need to wait after 16-17 to train harder jumps such as 3+3 etc? Its never going to work.

And that ought to be telling us something! If it is IMPOSSIBLE for a 16 yr old girl to learn a triple-triple NOT because she lacks the talent or the motivation but because of the physics of being a grown-up then the sport isn't about skill but about who has the best genetics and who can prevent nature from taking its course best.
And it is possible. Girls' growth is easily studented by tough physical training. Their menarche is delayed.
And ever wonder why this conversation ONLY happens about girls? We value strength and athletic ability in boys but want girls to stay children.
 
And that ought to be telling us something! If it is IMPOSSIBLE for a 16 yr old girl to learn a triple-triple NOT because she lacks the talent or the motivation but because of the physics of being a grown-up then the sport isn't about skill but about who has the best genetics and who can prevent nature from taking its course best.

I don't think that's the right way to think about it, or at least it's an incomplete way.

Any highly trained skill, whether figure skating or playing an instrument, often requires intense training from an early age. No amazing pianist or violinist got started after 16-17. It's not only about the physical development, it's also about neural development, including a skill as apparently physical as landing a 3/3. Skaters need to take advantage of the neural plasticity of their brain (which inexorably goes into a steady decline from mid-teens, sadly!) to learn these tough moves, which require fine timing and coordination of the different parts of the body. Physical attributes like power and flexibility alone definitely wouldn't get you there.

Besides being able to learn more and faster, children have over adults the advantages of not being afraid of learning new things, and also healing much faster when they do get injured. It's much more dangerous for Joannie Rochette to try to master the 3-3 at her age, than it is for 14-year-olds. An older skater has slower reaction time, is more prone to falling, and any injury is more likely to affect a whole season.

That said, obviously even children aren't immune to injuries, and obsessive, repetitive training of one or a few elements can lead to long-term injuries, like Tara's hip, Miki's shoulder, Yu-na's back/hip, etc.

So in order to protect the sport and the athletes, skaters, their families, and their coaching teams just need to be really aware of the various risks, and balance them as well as they can against acquiring excellence in the sport.

Also, the reason we don't talk about guys is because they usually develop their full technical prowess later so young teens almost never appear among the elites. Their bodies don't hit a puberty wall the way women's bodies do, so they can continue adding difficulty to their tech content. Female skaters, on the other hand, rarely add new tough jumps to their arsenal after 17-18, and it is also very dangerous for their mature bodies to attempt to learn them (like Joannie is doing now).

ETA: To complete this last thought, I want to relate it back to the age limit. Although there are the occasional talented 14-year-old guys who have all the triples save the 3A as well as good presentation skills (like Patrick Chan at 14), they cannot compete with top senior men who are doing 3A and quads, so the issue of sending them to international competitions before 15 almost never comes up. So the age limit in men's event doesn't have nearly the same impact as it does in ladies'. Given the arbitrariness of the age rule (why 14 or 15, why is July 1 a magical date, why inconsistency across competitions & countries), and the difficulty of enforceability (how do you prevent a rogue federation from fudging birthdates of young, obscure skaters that nobody outside has ever heard of?), I think it's clear that the age rule is not a good idea and something else needs to be thought up.

If the scoring rules of figure skating were changed, such that 14-year-old girls have little chance of competing with mature women (e.g. by placing a greater emphasis on artistry), then there would be no need to decide whether someone like Rachael Flatt who missed the July 1 deadline by 3 weeks should or shouldn't go to the senior WC. And there would also be no incentive for some federations to cheat, and others to feel cheated. The age rule would then become redundant as it has been in the men's event.
 
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Well, if I have to decide between seeing Triple-Triple-Combos at competitions and having less young girls terribly injured and emotionally distressed at an early age - I choose the wellfare of the young ladies / children.

:rock::rock::rock:
 
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