Can Sasha pull a "Michelle Kwan" and get on the Olympic team?

[Mathman]

...we have seen what the other US girls can do the last two seasons. It is not good enough to be competitive...

Hah! Tell it to the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team!

 

[janetfan]

:sheesh:

If Sasha earns it at Nationals she goes to the Olys, there and then she can make your U.S. Ladies Medal dreams come true.

USA fans are lucky K as we have had many wonderful Lady skaters over the years.

My comments were directed to those that say things like, "Sasha doen't deserve a chance," or "Sasha can't land any jumps" "Sasha is no good," and other generally uninformed comments.

The last time I checked US Natls was open for all qualified skaters, including returning Olympic medalists.

I am fine with the two top finishers going to Vancouver. I particularly like Alissa and Mirai and do not like any Ladies from other countries better (OK, sometimes Laura )

I would particularly like to see Sasha skate again simply because I found much of her skating beautiful, elegant and in a class of it's own.

Good luck to your German girls, hope one of them will be allowed to skate in Vancouver

 

[Mathman]

^ Well, let's see. Sarah beat Rachael Flatt last year in her Junior Grand Prix event. Rachael beat Yu-na Kim in the long program at Skate America. Therefore...:yes:

 

[janetfan]

:yes: Your reasoning is impeccable Mathman.

and Miki beat Yuna in the SP at the GPF.

But was there more to it than just the scores?

Anything is possible on the ice - and when it isn't we can always rely on the tech caller and judges to distort reality

 

[silverlake22]

^ Well, let's see. Sarah beat Rachael Flatt last year in her Junior Grand Prix event. Rachael beat Yu-na Kim in the long program at Skate America. Therefore...:yes:

Oh yeah I forgot about that! Sarah's such a cutie and I love her triple-triple. Needs to work on her spirals though, she's tall and thin and has nice lines if she could just work on her flexibility and stretch, I think she could be the next big European skater :agree:

 

[chuckm]

Rachael had pretty easy GP's this season but somehow manged to miss the GPF. Ashley made the GPF and as I predicted she got creamed by Yuna and Miki who were far from their best,

Rachael SHOULD have won the bronze medal at CoC (Korpi skated horribly and was inexplicably rewarded with silver; she should have been 4th). Except for Korpi, she would have made the GPF.

And FYI, Rachael didn't compete against Miki Ando in the GP. At CoC the podium was Suzuki, Korpi, Rochette. At SA, the podium was Yu-Na, Rachael, Sebestyen. And Rachael BEAT Yu-Na in the FS at SA.

In my eyes, SASHA was mediocre at her last competition, Worlds 2006, when an easy win was well within reach. IMO, if Sasha had REALLY wanted a shot at the 2010 Olympics, she would have begun preparing in mid-2008, not 8 months before Vancouver.

^ Well, let's see. Sarah beat Rachael Flatt last year in her Junior Grand Prix event. Rachael beat Yu-na Kim in the long program at Skate America. Therefore...:yes:

That was two years ago. And Rachael had gone to Germany after competing the previous weekend in Japan.

Of course, Rachael went on to beat Sarah Hecken at 2008 Junior Worlds, 172.19 to 128.45, and at 2009 Skate America, 174.91 to 131.10.

 

[janetfan]

Rachael SHOULD have won the bronze medal at CoC (Korpi skated horribly and was inexplicably rewarded with silver; she should have been 4th).

In my eyes, SASHA was mediocre at her last competition, Worlds 2006, when an easy win was well within reach. .

But even you can understand that a mediocre Sasha won the bronze medal at Worlds.

A mediocre Rachael finishes behind Kiira. Quite a difference, no? A world medal for mediocre Sasha and nothing for mediocre Rachael.

I suspect you are right about much of this and I would not be surprised if Sasha can't skate at Natls. I hope she does though just because I enjoy her skating.

I think the other US Ladies are competitiors are maybe if Sasha shows they will all lift their game a little. Wouldn't that be enjoyable to see :yes:

 

[chuckm]

Did you see Korpi's performance at CoC? I did, and both SP and FS were sloppy. She was WAY overscored.

Korpi's FS: 2z, 3s+2t, 3lo, 1s, 3lo+2t+2lo, 2a+2t, 2a (3 triples)
Flatt's FS: 2a, 3f+2t, 3z, 3lo, 2z, 3f, 3s+2t+2lo (5 triples)

BTW, I sincerely hope that the US ladies don't go on this board and read your posts. It's one thing to critique individual performances, work ethic, etc, quite another to dismiss a whole team of US skaters as being hopelessly mediocre.

If you feel it necessary to denigrate a group of talented skaters in order to prop up the chances of your favorite, then what does it say about the true readiness of your fave?

 

[Tonichelle]

But even you can understand that a mediocre Sasha won the bronze medal at Worlds.
:

so only when your favorites don't win the system is corrupt?

 

[janetfan]

so only when your favorites don't win the system is corrupt?

Hello - I agreed and said a subpar Sasha won bronze. Where did you come up with your comment toni? Nothing was said that '06 Worlds were fixed?

I think you are cross referencing posts from other topics :scratch:

I thought Kimmie won 06 Worlds and my point was even a subpar Sasha made a podium.

ETA: Upon reflection I agree with you toni. I probably do think the system is corrupt when my favs don't win

 

[Tonichelle]

what I'm saying is that while you agree she was subpar you are happy to announce she made the podium. okay, all well and good, but a subpar performance when it's not Sasha or another favorite - would it also deserve the same score/spot/recognition?

Sasha was given a bit of a gift at worlds, as is the norm in both systems after an olympics. old traditions die hard.

 

[janetfan]

what I'm saying is that while you agree she was subpar you are happy to announce she made the podium. okay, all well and good, but a subpar performance when it's not Sasha or another favorite - would it also deserve the same score/spot/recognition?

Sasha was given a bit of a gift at worlds, as is the norm in both systems after an olympics. old traditions die hard.

I really don't remember much from the Ladies at '06 Worlds except for Kimmie. I haven't watched Sasha, Fumie, or any others lately. I did recently watch Kimmie's LP and still enjoyed it.

I was happy to point out that Sasha typically had good results in front of Intl judges. You can disagree or interpret it anyway you like.

The same can't be said about our current group of skaters. Except for Alissa, they are still young so the book is still open on them.

 

[gsrossano]

The animated discussion shows how much attention I think Sasha competing at Nationals will bring to the event. It will certainly raise the excitement level even more above what you have with the four ladies who are currently fighting for two spots. For that reason alone I hope she shows up and has respectable skates.

But there seems to be a lot of 6.0 thinking going on. It doesn't matter who beat who in the past, or who was robbed or who got a gift in the past, or how Sashsa compares to any other skater then or now. We don't compare the skaters head to head anymore.

The real unknown IMO is whether Sasha currently has the tools to reach the 180-190 points she needs to make the US podium or the 190-200 points she needs to make the Olympic podium. And can she reach those point levels if her jumps are currently in sad shape, should that actually be the case? If she planned her comeback strategically and been training strategically that is certainly in the realm of possibility. If not, and if she has been working primarily to get back all her triples at the expense of the places she is more likely to get more points then she is in deep dodo.

There is no realistic route to the podium in the Men's event without the two most difficult jumps they do (3A, 4T), but there is a realistic route to the podium in the Ladies event without the two most difficult jumps they do (3Lz, 3F) -- if the skater choose that road. Wish I knew which route Sashsa was attempting to take.

 

[janetfan]

The animated discussion shows how much attention I think Sasha competing at Nationals will bring to the event. It will certainly raise the excitement level even more above what you have with the four ladies who are currently fighting for two spots. For that reason alone I hope she shows up and has respectable skates.

But there seems to be a lot of 6.0 thinking going on. It doesn't matter who beat who in the past, or who was robbed or who got a gift in the past, or how Sashsa compares to any other skater then or now. We don't compare the skaters head to head anymore.

The real unknown IMO is whether Sasha currently has the tools to reach the 180-190 points she needs to make the US podium or the 190-200 points she needs to make the Olympic podium. And can she reach those point levels if her jumps are currently in sad shape, should that actually be the case? If she planned her comeback strategically and been training strategically that is certainly in the realm of possibility. If not, and if she has been working primarily to get back all her triples at the expense of the places she is more likely to get more points then she is in deep dodo.

There is no realistic route to the podium in the Men's event without the two most difficult jumps they do (3A, 4T), but there is a realistic route to the podium in the Ladies event without the two most difficult jumps they do (3Lz, 3F) -- if the skater choose that road. Wish I knew which route Sashsa was attempting to take.

I think many posters here feel that Sasha "owes" them something, or has no right to skate at Natls - but I tend to agree more with your pov.

Of course I wish she would have skated at SA or TEB this season. I don't think she has helped her chances but if an injury prevented her from competing I see no reason to crucify her for that.

Looking on the positive side of things I agree that Sasha competing at Natls will make it more interesting. We might even get better coverage of skating events in general if the casual fan or public sees a recognizable name.

I really don't care so much about her "strategy" although others may find it interesting to think about.

For me, and others it would be fun to see Sasha compete one last time. The "new skating" is supposed to be more of a sport and last time I checked real sports are still about competing.

If the other US Ladies don't do so well at Natls it could raise some interesting questions. Under the "new selection rules" Sasha should not come into play since she has not competed at GP's, Natls or Worlds the past few seasons.

I don't think any posters at GS have suggested they want or expect favoritism for Sasha. Most of us would like a good, fair competition witht the two best being selected for the Olympic team. If Sasha is one of the two best I hope she is selected. If she is not then I hope she is passed over.

That doesn't change my opinion about her skating at Natls. She has been a very good skater in the past and has represented her country well, winning many International medals in her career.

I think she has earned the right by her performances throughout her career for a chance to skate and compete one last time. And love her or hate her Sasha does raise the interest level and I fail to see how that is a bad thing for a sport that has been desperate for skaters with star power.

 

[chuckm]

I was happy to point out that Sasha typically had good results in front of Intl judges. You can disagree or interpret it anyway you like.

The same can't be said about our current group of skaters. Except for Alissa, they are still young so the book is still open on them.

Finishing 5th at Worlds 2009 in Rachael's first season at the Senior level isn't a "good result in front of Intl judges"? As for Alissa, her best Worlds finish was 11th in 2009. She was 15th in 2007.

Rachael Flatt won Junior Worlds 2008 at 15. Sasha Cohen finished 6th at JW at 15.

Sasha won her first GP medal, a bronze, in her 4th GP event, in her second season on the GP. Rachael won silver at 2008 COR, her second event, in her first season on the GP.

Try to have some kind of perspective, and do make an attempt to look at historical facts.

 

[janetfan]

Finishing 5th at Worlds 2009 in Rachael's first season at the Senior level isn't a "good result in front of Intl judges"? As for Alissa, her best Worlds finish was 11th in 2009. She was 15th in 2007.

Rachael Flatt won Junior Worlds 2008 at 15. Sasha Cohen finished 6th at JW at 15.

Sasha won her first GP medal, a bronze, in her 4th GP event, in her second season on the GP. Rachael won silver at 2008 COR, her second event, in her first season on the GP.

Try to have some kind of perspective, and do make an attempt to look at historical facts.

Very impressive. Rachael is just like Sasha.

I tend to go by bigger events than GP's OK?

If Rachael wins a world medal or Olympic medal I will be happy for her. If she wins Natls I will be happy for her, or for Ashley, Alissa, etc

If Sasha is named to the Olympic team I will be happy for her.
Won't you be happy for her too?

 

[MKFSfan]

I really don't remember much from the Ladies at '06 Worlds except for Kimmie. I haven't watched Sasha, Fumie, or any others lately. I did recently watch Kimmie's LP and still enjoyed it.

I was happy to point out that Sasha typically had good results in front of Intl judges. You can disagree or interpret it anyway you like.

The same can't be said about our current group of skaters. Except for Alissa, they are still young so the book is still open on them.

You are right-Sasha has always gotten good marks from the judges even when she stumbles. At 2006 Worlds, arguably one of her worst performances/competitions, she still managed a total score of 181.29, 2 points less than her Olympic total which many seem to think was such a great performance. The other competition from that season, TEB, she had a total score of 175.12. Now, COP has changed quite a bit, and if she skated exactly the same today, she would lose 6-8 points over all (taken into account there is now one less spin in the LP, about 3.5-4 points worth, and an "e" call on the flutz in both SP and LP, so another 2-4 points depending upon how severe the judges viewed that flutz). So, just the TEB score would dip Sasha under 170. US Ladies seem to end up in the 160 to low 170's range, and these scores would have 2006 Sasha right at the top with probably upper 170's.

The problem is the elite skaters are scoring in the 180-90's, 200 being the targeted score, the "6.0" so to speak. Sasha is a gifted spinner and spiraler, and always had a nice FW section. She could at the most score 20 points on non-jump elements if she were to get +GOE on all those elements. A bare jump layout of a few "decent" triples would be:
2ax
3sal
3t
3sal/2t x
3t/2t x
2ax x
2ax/2t/2lp x
....34.99 start value. Her start value for jumps in 2005-06 was 40 points. So unless she lands each jump pass CLEANLY, Sasha would need to raise her PCS to 66 to maintain that same Olympics/Worlds score. Not sure that is possible, so she needs a flip/lutz, this layout won't cut it.

For all we know, Sasha could be landing all her triples and the biggest "problem" is rotating the back end of a 3fl/3t combo! This is all speculation, janetfan, not so much bashing if Sasha ever could skate, land a jump, ever hit a deep edge, could outskate a snail etc, etc. We can only go by the few rumors that spill out. "Aunt Joyce" also reported earlier this year that Michelle was impressing USFSA officials during her practices and had all her triples back. I will always wonder if that was true, and if Michelle really did stop, think-"My body will not last rigorous training for the next 8 months, and I won't be a front runner for Gold, so I am not going to chance it." I just don't think Sasha will be back unless she truly feels she can contend for Gold at the Olympics. She has to know she could win Nationals with the above jump layout, say she only has one fall and her non-jump elements are perfectly done so that she gets all +1GOE's-she'll easily hit at the very least 50 for TES, and you know National judges will award her like a 65 in PCS, which gives her a 115 in the LP. But that sort of layout won't cut it Internationally for Gold.

 

[janetfan]

You are right-Sasha has always gotten good marks from the judges even when she stumbles. At 2006 Worlds, arguably one of her worst performances/competitions, she still managed a total score of 181.29, 2 points less than her Olympic total which many seem to think was such a great performance. The other competition from that season, TEB, she had a total score of 175.12. Now, COP has changed quite a bit, and if she skated exactly the same today, she would lose 6-8 points over all (taken into account there is now one less spin in the LP, about 3.5-4 points worth, and an "e" call on the flutz in both SP and LP, so another 2-4 points depending upon how severe the judges viewed that flutz). So, just the TEB score would dip Sasha under 170. US Ladies seem to end up in the 160 to low 170's range, and these scores would have 2006 Sasha right at the top with probably upper 170's.

The problem is the elite skaters are scoring in the 180-90's, 200 being the targeted score, the "6.0" so to speak. Sasha is a gifted spinner and spiraler, and always had a nice FW section. She could at the most score 20 points on non-jump elements if she were to get +GOE on all those elements. A bare jump layout of a few "decent" triples would be:
2ax
3sal
3t
3sal/2t x
3t/2t x
2ax x
2ax/2t/2lp x
....34.99 start value. Her start value for jumps in 2005-06 was 40 points. So unless she lands each jump pass CLEANLY, Sasha would need to raise her PCS to 66 to maintain that same Olympics/Worlds score. Not sure that is possible, so she needs a flip/lutz, this layout won't cut it.

For all we know, Sasha could be landing all her triples and the biggest "problem" is rotating the back end of a 3fl/3t combo! This is all speculation, janetfan, not so much bashing if Sasha ever could skate, land a jump, ever hit a deep edge, could outskate a snail etc, etc. We can only go by the few rumors that spill out. "Aunt Joyce" also reported earlier this year that Michelle was impressing USFSA officials during her practices and had all her triples back. I will always wonder if that was true, and if Michelle really did stop, think-"My body will not last rigorous training for the next 8 months, and I won't be a front runner for Gold, so I am not going to chance it." I just don't think Sasha will be back unless she truly feels she can contend for Gold at the Olympics. She has to know she could win Nationals with the above jump layout, say she only has one fall and her non-jump elements are perfectly done so that she gets all +1GOE's-she'll easily hit at the very least 50 for TES, and you know National judges will award her like a 65 in PCS, which gives her a 115 in the LP. But that sort of layout won't cut it Internationally for Gold.

You may be right and I never meant to imply that you were a "Sasha basher"

Your comments are pretty interesting and very fair.
The only bits I saw of Michelle were from the FOI show in Korea. I thought Michelle looked pretty good - but it was just show skating. Some of Sasha's show skating looks pretty good too - but again, as many never tire of pointing out, it is not the same as competing. :yes:

Maybe Speedy will move the Olympics back a month if that would help Sasha

 

[chuckm]

115 in the FS won't necessarily do it for Sasha, because Ashley, Alissa and Rachael are all capable of topping that score. And 115 is presupposing that Sasha skates a clean FS, something she's never, ever done at Nationals.

 

[Tinymavy15]

You are right-Sasha has always gotten good marks from the judges even when she stumbles. At 2006 Worlds, arguably one of her worst performances/competitions, she still managed a total score of 181.29, 2 points less than her Olympic total which many seem to think was such a great performance. The other competition from that season, TEB, she had a total score of 175.12. Now, COP has changed quite a bit, and if she skated exactly the same today, she would lose 6-8 points over all (taken into account there is now one less spin in the LP, about 3.5-4 points worth, and an "e" call on the flutz in both SP and LP, so another 2-4 points depending upon how severe the judges viewed that flutz). So, just the TEB score would dip Sasha under 170. US Ladies seem to end up in the 160 to low 170's range, and these scores would have 2006 Sasha right at the top with probably upper 170's.

The problem is the elite skaters are scoring in the 180-90's, 200 being the targeted score, the "6.0" so to speak.

Nobody but Yu-na and maybe Mao will hit 200. All the other "medal contenders" Joannie, Miki, Racheal, Akikio, Korpi, Kostner etc have not been getting scores anywhere near 200 this season.