Carmen Be Gone and Other Music Don'ts

[jkun]

Why? So many skaters have used it--Jenny Kirk, Orser, even Plushy.

I think certain pieces are definitely owned, or dominated by certain skaters. Similar to how Bolero brings back comparisons to T/D, other pieces of music can also bring certain comparisons. I think Jenm is right in saying that Danse Macabre is very strongly associated with Yuna. When watching Sergei Voronov's Danse Macabre this season, I could only think of Yuna's and how lacking Sergei's performance was.

 

[Skater Boy]

Schehrrazade - I know many people skated to it before, but I don't think anyone can ever top D/W

Bolero- Im just not sold on with it. (years ago, on my Nintendo, I had a figure skating game. The music my girl skated to was always Bolero, so I find it juniorish now I guess)

Well I think B and S already topped D/W with Scherrazade. That was ethereal and divine. D/W don't have quite the personality or dramatic flare to carry it off - good but not great like B and S. Wow, bliss on ice.

 

[Weathergal]

It's up to the whole team to find music that maybe isn't so well known, but that the skater can connect to.

I do give mad props to skaters who go outside the box with their music choices though.

Even Vornov's 100 random music cuts was entertaining BECAUSE he really, really liked it. He had confidence in his skating this season, and in his choreography too.

Yuzu did POTO, and everyone groaned, his Coach made him wait a season etc. But this was something he wanted to do with his whole heart. Shae Lynn Bourne said that she respected Yuzu's choice because he was so sure that this was the music for him.
The music isn't sophisticated like his Chopin SP and it is terribly overused, but he sells the program much better as a whole than his Notredame De Paris program which he never connected with.

Really well put Newbiespectator! Especially agree with the parts in bold. Voronov's music cuts were awful, but I admired the way he "worked it."

Also something to be said for the quote from Shae-Lynn Bourne about Yuzu and how much it meant for him to use the music. This is one reason I'm loathe to advocate for a ban, even though the POTOs in particular this year made my teeth clench.

So rather than saying which songs I'd want to ban in addition to POTO and Carmen, I'll just say songs I don't want to hear very much (unless the skater is really rocking them!) :dance:
"Firebird"
"Bolero" (OK, I almost want a ban on this one)
Gershwin, especially "Rhapsody in Blue" and "An American in Paris"
Muse (just not feeling those lyrics; didn't even really care for Jeremy's "Exogenesis Symphony")
"Nessun Dorma"
"Sarabande"

There IS wonderful classical music (and other genres) that isn't being used (or at least not overused). Ex. Kavaguti and Smirnov's "Manfred Symphony" program.

I realize it wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but I actually liked Liza's FP music this season. It was different from most other things out there, and she really sold it.

 

[Layback11]

There IS wonderful classical music (and other genres) that isn't being used (or at least not overused). Ex. Kavaguti and Smirnov's "Manfred Symphony" program.

Indeed there is, Weathergal! As a classically-trained violinist, I love classical music, and there's a lot of pieces that aren't totally overused. Even some of the "modern classical" (classical-style music, usually piano, by modern artists) is great and relatively-untouched for skating. Hannah Miller's 2014-15 LP is a great example (She picks really, really good LP music =)). Meditation from Thaiis is one of my favorite classical pieces, and it hasn't been completely overused yet, at least not as much as Carmen/POTO/Romeo and Juliet/Swan Lake/Gershwin, although a few people are skating to it-why aren't more people using that? Even better, there's a lot of great classical music that hasn't been touched. It's not classical music that people get fed up with-it's the four pieces that 87% of all skaters use. (Note: this is an approximation. )

 

[GF2445]

I especially like that their arrangement was faster than the recordings, as the impression is lighter. I read once, that the adagietto wasn't supposed to be played that slow by Mahler, this was a historic development.

The most recognised recording of this was done by thr chicago symphony- it goes for 9:47
But i have heard this movement played as slow as 12+ minutes which is rediculously slow.

 

[silverfoxes]

Sergei isn't even the only one using Danse Macabre this season...there's also Cappellini/Lannotte, Cannuscio/McManus, and I think at least one girl (might have been a jr). Denis Ten used it last season (with horrible music cuts, I might add). It was used by plenty of others before Yuna, like Tim Goebel, Yukina Ota, Annette Dytrt, Brian Orser, etc. The idea that someone "owns" a piece of music - especially a common piece like that! - is laughable to me. Maybe nobody should have touched it after Brian Orser!

 

[MiRé]

Sergei isn't even the only one using Danse Macabre this season...there's also Cappellini/Lannotte, Cannuscio/McManus, and I think at least one girl (might have been a jr). Denis Ten used it last season (with horrible music cuts, I might add). It was used by plenty of others before Yuna, like Tim Goebel, Yukina Ota, Annette Dytrt, Brian Orser, etc. The idea that someone "owns" a piece of music - especially a common piece like that! - is laughable to me. Maybe nobody should have touched it after Brian Orser!

did you even read what the OP wrote?

RE

PS you can also choose to outlaw a piece because a legendary program (or one you just really love) was skated to it and you want that piece to be associated with only that one program. (On a side note, I like to call it 'figure skating treason' when somebody steals an iconic piece like that, LOL.)

stop jumping into conclusions without knowing what is discussed in the first place

 

[noskates]

For me, to call a piece "iconic" it almost has to be skated to by an Olympic Gold Medal winner or a multi-Worlds Gold Medal winner. So I guess Jenny Kirk doesn't fit in my description that anything she did was iconic. ( Not the point, but just had to say it.)

But I also disagree with those saying that the skater should skate to what they think they should skate to or are comfortable with. Not all skaters are evidently musically adept or know what's best for them and I think it should be a combination of the coach and the choreographer with input from the skater. Seems to me like the choreographer should take the lead since he or she has to put movement to the music. Figure skating has literally ruined some pieces of music for me because I've heard them over and over and skated to by sometimes less than talented performers. That always sticks in my mind. And pretty much all those pieces of music have been documented in this thread. Nice to know I'm not the only one! I swear to God, hearing any cut from Carmen is like poking a stick in my eye. On the other hand, I don't think the choreographer can always be trusted - point in fact was having teeny tiny Karen Chen skate to a huuuuuge piece of music from the Godfather. That just didn't resonate with me.

And in the final analysis, you're going to like some music and dislike others just like you like some programs and skaters and not-so-much others.

 

[silverfoxes]

did you even read what the OP wrote?

This is what I was replying to (and everything after it)

I think certain pieces are definitely owned, or dominated by certain skaters. Similar to how Bolero brings back comparisons to T/D, other pieces of music can also bring certain comparisons. I think Jenm is right in saying that Danse Macabre is very strongly associated with Yuna. When watching Sergei Voronov's Danse Macabre this season, I could only think of Yuna's and how lacking Sergei's performance was.

I don't think of Yuna when I think of "Danse Macabre," and she doesn't own it unless Saint-Saens wrote it especially for her, which I doubt very much, since it was written over 100 years before she was born...

 

[NanaPat]

Not overused, but horrible - Cell Block tango from Chicago. Moore-Towers/Marinaro used it this year complete with "Pop. Six. Squish. Cicero". Ugh.

I certainly agree that Carmen, POTO, and Bolero are way overdone. Another one that isn't overused quite as much but that I really dislike for skating is "Ave Maria". As soon as I hear it I either fast forward or hit mute.

 

[Meoima]

I don't think of Yuna when I think of "Danse Macabre," and she doesn't own it unless Saint-Saens wrote it especially for her, which I doubt very much, since it was written over 100 years before she was born...

Agree. As a person who had followed classical music before FS, this is my first thought about Danse Macabre:
https://youtu.be/9CHqhsMP80E

 

[dorispulaski]

As a person who doesn't care for St. Saens' Danse Macabre, I never think of any skater when I hear it. I think of listening to something else entirely as soon as possible.

I hated hearing all those POTO's at Worlds, but I wouldn't want to stop a skater from skating to what they are happy skating to.

But I think skaters should think twice before using music that people associate with ads, cartoons, or video games, unless the program is designed to fit with these cultural associations.

If you are skating to Woodkid, you might consider whether your interpretation is incongruous with Assassin's Creed. If you're skating to the William Tell Overture, do you want people thinking of the Lone Ranger? ....I can't hear The Barber of Seville without thinking of Bugs Bunny. Sometimes associations lead to inappropriate laughter from the audience and have to be a distraction.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't associate Danse Macabre specifically with Yuna Kim, either.

That said, I do agree that sometimes a piece of music is so strongly identified with a specific skater and program that it's a good idea for others to stay away from it for a while, or at least for skaters in the same discipline to do so. How long did it take before other Boleros showed up after T&D? And you don't really see it used in dance, either. I doubt any ice dancers will be touching the Mozart concerto that P/C used this season any time soon, either. I don't think anyone has skated to Winter since Yagudin's program, and KvdP had to answer questions about using MITIM a decade after Yagudin did (he noted that it was not called "Yagudin in the Iron Mask" ). I think for music to be strongly identified with one skater, the program has to be spectacular, but the music itself should be something that hasn't been used much before, at least not in that discipline. Which isn't the case with Yuna and Danse Macabre, and that might be the reason those who aren't as invested in her career don't see it as "hers".

OTOH, I have a friend who thinks that Tango de Roxanne was done so well by Yuna that it should be left alone by others.

Muse (just not feeling those lyrics; didn't even really care for Jeremy's "Exogenesis Symphony")

The Kerrs did it first, and better (2010 gala/2011 FD).

But I think skaters should think twice before using music that people associate with ads, cartoons, or video games, unless the program is designed to fit with these cultural associations.

If you are skating to Woodkid, you might consider whether your interpretation is incongruous with Assassin's Creed. If you're skating to the William Tell Overture, do you want people thinking of the Lone Ranger? ....I can't hear The Barber of Seville without thinking of Bugs Bunny. These types of associations lead to inappropriate laughter from the audience and have to be a distraction.

Those are probably culture-specific associations, though, and possibly age-specific ones as well. Certainly for me that's not what comes to mind when I think of those three examples. Also, skaters and choreographers might not even know what associations people might have in the countries in which they'll compete.

 

[bartlebooth]

Agree. As a person who had followed classical music before FS, this is my first thought about Danse Macabre:
https://youtu.be/9CHqhsMP80E

Mine is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzQxiu_0pnQ

Back on topic, I'm somewhere in the middle: nobody can prevent skaters to emulate successful programs or music choices, but they have to be aware that they will inevitably face comparisons to iconic performances of the music they chose.
I understand why Carmen and Swan Lake are so beloved, but if a skater choose a warhorse, they better try to do something innovative with it, otherwise it will be the n-th generic program to Carmen and fans will groan.
On the other hand, I can't stand the Phantom of the Opera. Please, no more.

 

[4everchan]

music doesn't belong to skaters… it belongs to the people who wrote it, and by extension to the people listening to it. What figure skating needs are people who are actually knowledgeable in classical music (and other genres) to help choreographers and skaters to select was it appropriate for them and what they want to portray. There are a lot of misses out there The ultimate DON'Ts for me, and I speak as a classically trained musician, are the cut, copy and paste we hear when taking let's say a 30 minute long Rachmaninoff concerto and making it into a SP or a LP… it's the most disturbing thing ever for trained ears. There are many "arrangements" that are just plain awful, while very few others are done with taste…. Perhaps the addition of vocal music will help with this matter as I cannot imagine people cutting the music in mid sentence we will see…

 

[karne]

I understand why Carmen and Swan Lake are so beloved, but if a skater choose a warhorse, they better try to do something innovative with it, otherwise it will be the n-th generic program to Carmen and fans will groan.

Yes, but on the other hand, when Max said he was going to do a more "modern" Carmen with less-used parts of the music, he got plenty of eye-rolls in response. So fans/public/officials don't always react well to doing "something innovative" with a warhorse, either. (Then Lori Nichol got her hands on him and that was the end of any hope for that program.)

You can't ban music. I LOVE the music of Carmen and it's on my to-skate-to list. So is Tango de Roxanne. I didn't understand the POTOs this season just because I didn't really think the music was that great.

You also can't say anyone "owns" a piece of music. No-one does, and frankly, I enjoy when a skater uses music that some consider "owned" by some other skater and then kicks the music's backside. Like Liza with Bolero. Like Elena with the Rach music. Like Joshua and Schindler's List. And yes, Sergei and Danse Macabre.

On the flip side - next person to skate to Tron better be good.

 

[Crossover]

I don't recall a skater's name that used Carmen with lyrics at Worlds but I was really amused by the new approach because admittedly that Carmen is one of my favorite Carmen performances (just music itself, not the skater's performance ). However, people here disliked that usage because the vocal was distracting and overwhelming for the skater and performance in general. The criticism is probably true, because I more enjoyed listening to the music, not watching her performance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlGTz0pSLS8

I'm not generally against overuse of any music, but no for POTOs for a while please, especially after watching both ladies and men's events at NHK trophy and the first group of the men's free event in Shanghai Worlds.

 

[Buttercup]

On the flip side - next person to skate to Tron better be good.

Deniss Vasiljevs really did set the standard high.

Although, I get the sense that's not what you meant?

 

[4everchan]

thanks for sharing … loved this program. spins are so cool

Deniss Vasiljevs really did set the standard high.

Although, I get the sense that's not what you meant?

 

[jenm]

Why? So many skaters have used it--Jenny Kirk, Orser, even Plushy.

It's a personal preference. And I was talking only about the ladies in fs as I don't know much about the men (which I forgot to include in my post, my bad)
I also said associate. I didn't mean no one should ever use it except Yuna but when I hear the music, it immediately reminds me of her performance. Not that it should affect you.