Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

[ks777]

Here you go

http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee485/Lyan_Park/1-2.jpg

Wrong country?

LOL, not too surprised!

 

[OS]

You've got to be kidding me. Someone actually photoshopped this?!

Heh, welcome to the digital age where fan culture has evolved. Personally I thought it was hilarious the image they picked, a real cute parody. I wonder what lovely things we would have got in the age of Michelle/Ito/Irina/Sasha when people drew with their mouse rather than felt tips, type rather than write. Other than showing up at competitions with banners and sacrificing stuffed animals.

(Videos are time-marked)

Michelle Kwan - 1998 Nationals

vs.

Michelle Kwan - 2004 Nationals

vs.

Yuna Kim - 2008 GPF

I think it's pretty safe to say that Michelle's 2004 Nationals teddy bear/gift toss was much closer to Yuna's 2008 GPF gift toss than at 1998 Nationals.

I love how Yuna's just standing there probably going, "Dang, I messed up" while the crowd's throwing stuff that could potentially hit her. And she's like, "Nah. It won't hit me."

Probably mixed feelings like 'Am I worthy?'. Messing up is a tough pill to swallow. My gosh, the atmosphere was electrifying at Michelle's 2004 Tosca. Nothing like Michelle working the home crowd. She has so much heart that is all American Sass and external, probably easier to relate to in the west. Very different type of skater from Yuna.

1998 comparison wouldn't be fair as rep and fan base built since, and may be stuffed animal wasn't a trend back then, or possibly more expensive? I bet the crowd would throw them if they got one.

Ahh I just realised, another factor that may influence the outcome is: crowd. Or rather home crowd. Michelle certainly has a better history thriving on them. And perhaps Skater sensitivity, so many things can affect the outcome beside the skating capabilities.

 

[aftertherain]

Heh, welcome to the digital age where fan culture has evolved. Personally I thought it was hilarious the image they picked, a real cute parody.

I was actually more creeped out than I was surprised. Ahaha.

Ahh I just realised, another factor that may influence the outcome is: crowd. Or rather home crowd. Michelle certainly has a better history thriving on them. And perhaps Skater sensitivity, so many things can affect the outcome beside the skating capabilities.

All three videos were of a home crowd.

 

[OS]

I was actually more creeped out than I was surprised. Ahaha.



All three videos were of a home crowd.

The question then would be if Michelle messed up. Would she still get the same amount of reception and stuffed animals? Impossible to answer

 

[prettykeys]

Reading the entirety of Prokoviev's post, I think she/he meant "Way!" (like a true Michelle fan).

Yes, it is obvious...what a tremendous brainfart by Prokofiev. Hence the winky!

Irrelevant, but I went to the bookstore the other day ... and it seems that vampire books are now a trend. They had a whole large shelf dedicated to current/newly released vampire fiction. Oh, the terrible writing!

Anyway, in terms of exhibitions, I loved what TAT did for Mao. Caprice and the current Chopin number are amazing. It's just sad that TAT couldn't choreograph better competition programs for Mao.

I KNOW. It's SO weird that Tatiana could choreograph such awesome exhibitions for Mao but the competitive programs were :scratch: With utmost respect to Tatiana and Mao, too.

I don't get the vampire trend at all. Twilight is awful. True Blood is awful. They basically just exploit sexual fantasies of their respective audiences.

"Daybreakers" is the best vampire-related thing I've seen the past many years (so of course it made the least amount of money).

AND THE VAMPIRE THING PISSES ME OFF SO BAD. Anne Rice and Josh Whedon (of Buffy the Vampire Slayer) are the only ones who produced good vampire series. The rest of this is trashy grossness. (I'm more of a sci-fi/fantasy person than dark fantasy, but seriously. Grooooss.)

Just in my humble option, I think there's no question that Yuna is a better skater than Tara ever was. Her jumps are way huger, she is much faster and her musicality and her range are far superior.
But I like Tara much better than other fans do so I'll say this: Yuna and Tara both have the distinction of coming into the Olympics as World Champions and skating two perfect programs under tremendous pressure and skating against formidable rivals who had won worlds the previous year.

1998 and 2010 definitely rank as the best ladies Olympic competition I've ever seen.

Speaking as a YuNa fan, I honestly would take caution in making that statement, myself. Tara impresses me so much. She is fearless and had an amazing 1997-1998 season, while sticking to a difficult layout in her FS.

I stopped skimming posts after the 10th page because I got impatient to type. Michelle vs. YuNa makes me sad, it really does. If they had been contemporaries, Michelle would have won, simply by DEFAULT because YuNa would not have had such a great role model to inspire and motivate her in Figure Skating while growing up.

os168 reiterated what I still believe is most important when considering who would win: context. Skaters are very much the product of their time, and their judging systems.

However. I don't watch figure skating just to see who wins and loses. I want to be beautifully inspired, I want to feel the passion. And all things considered...if I truly had to pick just one potential "best" female skater, I will concede I honestly believe that at present it should probably go to Michelle, because I think she managed that the most times. I also honestly somewhat feel that 6.0 without figures competition enabled some of that. Aranjuez 2003 Worlds is my favourite female LP. Michelle's Tosca has too much...you know. Aranjuez is subtler, more sophisticated, with just the right amount of bang.

And still, YuNa is my favourite. I am so sad that Lark Ascending was never skated cleanly. I love her humility (which sometimes shows itself when her confidence cracks and she makes a mistake or two, but she is increasingly learning to trust herself, it seems), I love the vivaciousness with which she skated Roxanne, I love her honesty when it comes to talking about who her biggest threats are (which, on this forum, apparently was construed as "snubbing" skaters she didn't state she felt threatened by)... YuNa is my figure skating Cinderella, and I believe she managed to rise the highest from the humblest beginnings. And I am so thankful that she is a great skater to boot. Thankful to her and everyone around her, and to Kwan!

 

[ks777]

Yes, it is obvious...what a tremendous brainfart by Prokofiev. Hence the winky!


I KNOW. It's SO weird that Tatiana could choreograph such awesome exhibitions for Mao but the competitive programs were :scratch: With utmost respect to Tatiana and Mao, too.


AND THE VAMPIRE THING PISSES ME OFF SO BAD. Anne Rice and Josh Whedon (of Buffy the Vampire Slayer) are the only ones who produced good vampire series. The rest of this is trashy grossness. (I'm more of a sci-fi/fantasy person than dark fantasy, but seriously. Grooooss.)


Speaking as a YuNa fan, I honestly would take caution in making that statement, myself. Tara impresses me so much. She is fearless and had an amazing 1997-1998 season, while sticking to a difficult layout in her FS.

I stopped skimming posts after the 10th page because I got impatient to type. Michelle vs. YuNa makes me sad, it really does. If they had been contemporaries, Michelle would have won, simply by DEFAULT because YuNa would not have had such a great role model to inspire and motivate her in Figure Skating while growing up.

os168 reiterated what I still believe is most important when considering who would win: context. Skaters are very much the product of their time, and their judging systems.

However. I don't watch figure skating just to see who wins and loses. I want to be beautifully inspired, I want to feel the passion. And all things considered...if I truly had to pick just one potential "best" female skater, I will concede I honestly believe that at present it should probably go to Michelle, because I think she managed that the most times. I also honestly somewhat feel that 6.0 without figures competition enabled some of that. Aranjuez 2003 Worlds is my favourite female LP. Michelle's Tosca has too much...you know. Aranjuez is subtler, more sophisticated, with just the right amount of bang.

And still, YuNa is my favourite. I am so sad that Lark Ascending was never skated cleanly. I love her humility (which sometimes shows itself when her confidence cracks and she makes a mistake or two, but she is increasingly learning to trust herself, it seems), I love the vivaciousness with which she skated Roxanne, I love her honesty when it comes to talking about who her biggest threats are (which, on this forum, apparently was construed as "snubbing" skaters she didn't state she felt threatened by)... YuNa is my figure skating Cinderella, and I believe she managed to rise the highest from the humblest beginnings. And I am so thankful that she is a great skater to boot. Thankful to her and everyone around her, and to Kwan!

Very well said! If Yuna's fans were more like you, I think more people would like Yuna.

 

[herro]

So true on Irina's run out... the one flaw. That and the constant hair pulling of the Tosca years

But I'm not sure about the whole Kwan under CoP thing - Red Violin is a prime example of the original idea behind IN HER PRIME. That program is dope regardless of the system. Plus, its foolish to think that a 20 year old Kwan wouldn't have the ability to work whatever system thrown at her. I think the same is true of Yuna's Gershwin program. Under 6.0, I think Yuna has a larger disadvantage to Kwan under CoP.

I still say that Irina is the best jumper, second only to Midori. On that point we will have to agree to disagree. That doesn't take away from Yuna's talent though and I'm never sure how these threads twist that idea into something ugly and negative. Oh well - maybe y'all are like me and need a snack or a nap instead of this pile of post holiday work!

Haha, I actually found Irina's hair pulling endearing in a way. It was something no one else did and I loved how she just went for it (even though if my choreographer told me to do it, I would have been embarassed and done it half-heartedly).

Again, I have to agree with you. One thing I know to be true about Kwan is that you can never count her out. I'm sure that if she started skating under the new system at the young age that these other skaters - Miki, Mao, Yuna, etc. - did, she would have molded her skating to fit whatever it would have taken to garner enormous points. I can see why you would say Yuna has a larger disadvantage to Kwan under 6.0 than vice versa and I somewhat agree with the principle behind your thought. I guess my difference in opinion is the magnitude of that disadvantage. I'm not sure whose disadvantage would be greater. It's just so hard to imagine because Yuna's become a CoP beating master. I'm glad this is hypothetical though, because if Yuna and Michelle did end up competing at the same time... I'm sure both would have ended up less happy as a result of this hypothetical rivalry. But yea, Red Violin is my FAVORITE program of hers... even moreso than some of her more iconic programs like the Rach and so on, haha.

 

[jaylee]

If you remember Sasha pretty well then you'd know she also suffered severe injuries. So did Michelle. So Irina. So did just about every elite skater - it goes with the territory. But you know what? I apologize if you can't understand my opinion a hypothetical senario. Its cool. All the prying doors and whatnot has snapped me back to reality... Welcome to Golden Skate.

Please forgive me for misunderstanding, but I don't think your assessment saying that Yu-Na and Sasha both suffered from "competition nerves"--which is what I was responding to--had anything to do with the hypothetical scenario that is the main subject of this thread. I understand perfectly your opinion on that and I didn't comment on that. I was responding to your opinion grouping Yu-Na with Sasha as a competitor--that's not a hypothetical statement at all.

Yes, Sasha had injuries, but is that the reason she never managed to win a world or Olympic title or more than one national title? Uh, I don't think so (it did cause her to miss part of the 2000-2001 season and GP events in 2004 & 2005). Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Sasha had severe injuries at the 2003, 2004, 2005, or 2006 Worlds, or the 2003, 2004, 2005 Nationals, or the 2002 or 2006 Olympics. On the other hand, Yu-Na's severe injuries are unquestionably why she wasn't at her best at two of the four world championships she competed with. Since Yu-Na's won 3 GPF titles and 7 regular Grand Prix titles, I assumed that the reason you questioned Yu-Na's competitive nerves was because of her worlds results. I apologize if that wasn't your meaning. Perhaps you could clarify what competitions of Yu-Na's you had in mind that caused you to group her with Sasha? Yu-Na definitely messed up at the 2010 Worlds when she had the ability to do better, but one disappointing competition there does not make her a questionable competitor overall. If only more skaters could have that kind of competitive nerve...either Yu-Na's or Michelle's, take your pick...

(Something tells me I will rue the day I had the nerve to compare Yuna Kime with Sasha Cohen - and it all started out so innocently... right until the prying doors - now I feel bad for upsetting the Ubers...)

I consider myself an uber Kwan fan as well as an uber Yu-Na fan; I'll spare you the boring details of all the joy and pain I've felt as a fan of Michelle for many years. I love the fact that Michelle's 1998 Olympic performance that the judges deemed 2nd best that night is the one that inspired Yu-Na the most.

If it makes you feel better to group Yu-Na as "closer to" Sasha and farther from Michelle, I can't and won't stop you. I just questioned and disagreed with your reasoning, and now I've said my piece and I'll stop there. Thank you.

I think Sasha was more reliable than many give her credit for. It can be said she was unreliable to cinch the gold or to skate two clean programs in a row, but she was at least top six for seven years. She was never off the podium for three consecutive years. She was a headcase, but not in the way Alissa Czisny is/was.

And her deer-in-the headlights look was because she either hadn't healed from an injury or reinjured herself. She reportedly had a bad Olympic LP practice like Irina did. I can't remember where I saw it, but I'll try to find the link later.

100% agree with you that Sasha was not a headcase in the way Alissa Czisny was (is? TBD at Nationals). Actually, she was more reliable than any of the current US ladies, it was just compared to Michelle that Sasha fell short in comparison (and, as I obviously argue, compared to Yu-Na).

I was actually much more of a fan of Sasha than Sarah during the 2001-2002 season and was pleased when Sasha did better than Sarah at 02 US Nationals. But then Sasha kept blowing opportunities to medal or win...when she placed behind an unprepared Sarah Hughes at 2003 Nationals, I was like, "Forget it! I can't be your fan if I can't trust you to ever skate cleanly!"

I do remember the bad Olympic LP practice report, or rather the fact that Sasha skipped her LP practice (here's one example: http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results_olympics/OWG06.htm ) and in an interview with EM Swift/Sports Illustrated after the Olympics, Sasha did mention that she had some kind of injury. But her history of rarely skating a clean LP (injury-free or not), the fact that her toe jumps were always weak and those were the ones that failed her at the Olympics, just make me skeptical that it was the injury that was really to blame for her not delivering. Skipping LP practices is something that Sasha did again at 2010 Nationals, as if it was normal. Oh, Sasha.

 

[aftertherain]

I do remember the bad Olympic LP practice report, or rather the fact that Sasha skipped her LP practice (here's one example: http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results_olympics/OWG06.htm ) and in an interview with EM Swift/Sports Illustrated after the Olympics, Sasha did mention that she had some kind of injury. But her history of rarely skating a clean LP (injury-free or not), the fact that her toe jumps were always weak and those were the ones that failed her at the Olympics, just make me skeptical that it was the injury that was really to blame for her not delivering. Skipping LP practices is something that Sasha did again at 2010 Nationals, as if it was normal. Oh, Sasha.

There's footage of her on YouTube at her 2006 LP practice and 2010 Nationals LP practice, so I have no idea what you mean ...

For the 2006 LP practice, she was there, but left early.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaZ6uGw8xkg

2010 Nationals LP Practice (she didn't do a run-through, just snippets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53NDdDbopNQ&feature=related

 

[jaylee]

There's footage of her on YouTube at her 2006 LP practice and 2010 Nationals LP practice, so I have no idea what you mean ...

For the 2006 LP practice, she was there, but left early.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaZ6uGw8xkg

2010 Nationals LP Practice (she didn't do a run-through, just snippets):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53NDdDbopNQ&feature=related

2006 Olympics: She skipped at least one practice prior to the LP and after the SP.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/feb/24/sports/sp-olyplaschke24/2

The weirdness actually started Wednesday, when Cohen was the only skater among the final six to not show up for practice.

Her coach, John Nicks, wanted her to work out and stay sharp. She told him no.

"I was just very, very tired from the short [program] and ultimately, I'm not going to learn anything new," she explained.

So, I think perhaps we're both right on 2006--she skipped one, and went to another but left early.

On 2010 US Nationals--this one took me a bit longer to find, but I found one report of it thanks to GS archives.

From twitter

Sasha Cohen was the only no-show in the final 2 groups of the 20-minute warmup this morning. I assume she's conserving energy for later today.The other five skaters in the top 6 after the short prpgram all made the practice

Sasha Cohen skips final practice session Sat am. Scott Hamilton: "rest more important when you are a seasoned veteran than getting up very early when you are going to skate a long program at 7:30 pm" (10 hours after practice)

Actually, you can hear Scott Hamilton justifying Sasha skipping the 9:30 AM practice in the video that you linked to above, though it's cut off so you don't hear him actually say that she skipped it. The same report made its way to other forums at the time so I assume it's accurate. Since there is more than one LP practice and she went to the other, I apologize if my statement was misleading, but she did skip at least one LP practice entirely both times, and I believe it was irregular since she was the only one to do so both times.

 

[Tonichelle]

Sasha pulled a groin muscle in 2006 and she was visibly limping after a practice, IIRC she skipped the earlier in the day warm up as that's when Scott Hamilton and company on OI (Olympic Ice) really started discussing it and how they thought she should ahve kept the 'excuse' to herself. Nevermind that if she'd kept quiet until after the event everyone would have said she was making crap up... whatever.

 

[prettykeys]

ooh, jaylee's Post #132 is da bomb. :agree:

Very well said! If Yuna's fans were more like you, I think more people would like Yuna.

Umm, what's wrong with YuNa's fans? I am a YuNa fan. Please don't use my post and opinions to insult my fellow fans. I don't want nor expect them to all think or choose like me.

[ETA: And one more thing to add--how sad for anyone who decides which skaters they like because of the skater's fans. I can't tell you how often I've been irritated by fans of other skaters, even if I LIKE those posters, and it will never affect how I judge the skater him/herself.]

True. I should've added that for ME its always strange to see Yuna get the butterflies at lesser events - like Grand Prix vs. Olympics. Whereas Kwan was rock solid right until she saw those rings on the ice.

Hhhwat? YuNa's record on the Grand Prix is outstanding, right up there with Irina's. Irina qualified for 10 GPFs and won 4 of those. YuNa has not missed out on making the Final for the past 6 years (2 JGPF, and 4 Senior GPF), until this year where she opted to stay out of it. YuNa has also won the GPF 4 times (1 JGPF, and 3 S.GPF). Sasha's only won it once, and a few years she participated in it but did not make the Final. Michelle only won it once, too.

So does that mean Michelle is a Grand Prix headcase, just like Sasha...?

I kind of agree with jaylee's general stance towards Sasha's lack of reliability. She had an exasperating habit of blowing things when she pretty much had it in the bag. I rolled my eyes everytime people talked about her excitedly--UNTIL THE 2006 OLYMPICS. That SP was such a welcome, awesome surprise, I was right back on the bandwagon. You go, girl! And I was sorry and sympathetic to see her just before her LP. The commentator said "she's different from yesterday--there's doubt in her eyes" or something to that effect, and it was so true. If Sasha hadn't pulled off that Torino SP, I would have always thought of her as kind of a choker. But, no, she was totally clutch that time, and that's why I sided with her when all the snide remarks came out last year about how she wouldn't show up to U.S. Nationals in a bid to be on the American Oly Team.

At least YuNa has had some competitions where she came back strong when she'd flubbed an SP. Nah, YuNa and Sasha are of a different competitive mettle.

 

[ks777]

ooh, jaylee's Post #132 is da bomb. :agree:


Umm, what's wrong with YuNa's fans? I am a YuNa fan. Please don't use my post and opinions to insult my fellow fans. I don't want nor expect them to all think or choose like me.

Did I ever insult anyone here? I was just saying if more of Yuna's fans were as humble and nice as you are, people would respect their opinions more is all I am saying instead of forcing everyone to like her. Huh? what's wrong? you haven't read some of the comments like, "Yuna is the best skater that ever lived, or " Yuna is the best skater in the history of the sport and people should like and worship her" kinda comments?

 

[cooper]

Did I ever insult anyone here? I was just saying if more of Yuna's fans were as humble and nice as you are, people would respect their opinions more is all I am saying instead of forcing everyone to like her. Huh? what's wrong? you haven't read some of the comments like, "Yuna is the best skater that ever lived, or " Yuna is the best skater in the history of the sport and people should like and worship her" kinda comments?

I think you can differentiate the loonies from the real fans of this sport at the same time who are supportive of Yuna.

 

[aftertherain]

...I would have always thought of her as kind of a choker. But, no, she was totally clutch that time, and that's why I sided with her when all the snide remarks came out last year about how she wouldn't show up to U.S. Nationals in a bid to be on the American Oly Team.


At least YuNa has had some competitions where she came back strong when she'd flubbed an SP. Nah, YuNa and Sasha are of a different competitive mettle.

Yeah, I didn't really understand the snide remarks. After the short program at Nationals last year, I thought she did rather well. There was a competitive fire in her eyes again, so that was really nice to see. I liked her SP better than that of Mirai's and it's a shame we didn't get to see it more. And that lovely, lovely I-Spin.

On another note, I think Sasha's more of a strong SP skater than a FS one, which would probably explain the "can't skate two clean programs in a row" statement.

Also, she was the last real figure skating star that we had. Granted, she never had as much star power as Michelle did, but you can't deny that she had some. After she retired, the battle to be the next American figure skating darling started and it's been going on ever since. There have been many prospects, but none have really stuck out. Well, 'cept for Mirai, but that's not going too well this season, is it?

 

[Olympia]

I know this is a YuNa/Michelle thread, but everyone already knows that I love and admire both these skaters, so I'll continue with Sasha. I'm glad to hear so many of you saying that Sasha isn't the headcase she's portrayed as. She does tend to give up long programs, that's true. But her record is astonishingly good for a headcase. During her rather long career, she's been on the Nationals podium every time she competed except in 2010 (which was an unusual case, after several seasons away from competition). She spent three seasons on the podium of Worlds, and she was fourth and then second at the Olympics. That's a record most skaters would envy. Could she have done better with her talent? Probably, if she'd had Witt's killer instinct or Kwan's enviable drive. But we in the U.S. were lucky to have her, as we now see when she's gone. And it wasn't just statistics, of course: she was a unique presence on the ice, and as someone just remarked, our last true American ladies' skating star. The ladies we have now have potential, certainly, but they haven't yet delivered in that way.

 

[Layfan]

^Of course, I completely agree, Olympia. I get so exasperated that people always harp on how Sasha never won gold. But that just goes to show what a special skater she was that the expectations were so incredibly high. If our current skater won two world silvers and an Olympic silver, we would be over the moon.

Sasha had several competitions where were mistakes were minor - stepping out of a jump or two, for instance. And if it was another skater, people would be all, oh that was amazing just a couple of minor mistakes. But since it's Sasha, it's "oh she choked again." And I always say, if Shiz or Irina had made a few mistakes in 2004 or 2005 and Sasha had won gold nobody would remember that she had a couple of shaky landings.

Also, she DID have some clean long programs. Unfortunately, they were at GP events or at Marshalls, never at the most important competitions.

I think Kwanford brought up an interesting points about the number of time Kim Yuna has messed up and how she also rarely skates two perfect programs in a row. That's true but at the same time, her two perfect programs at the Olympics were SO astonishing that I think it sort of cancels all that out ... So, I just can't help but think of Yuna has a better competitor than Sasha and it is is obvious that Yuna's technique is just more reliable.

The thing is so few skaters have many perfect competitions -that is part what made Michelle Kwan so special, giving us so many perfect long programs. But even she messed up at times of course. I find myself often defending Michelle to people who don't follow figure skating closely. Last year, during the Olympics, one of my colleagues, said "oh, I always loved that Michelle Kwan but she always messed up when it counted most." It was so frustrating!!!! Of course, I had to say "No, girl, Michelle Kwan won FIVE WORLD CHAMPIONISHIPS AND NINE NATIONALS" And the colleague said, "yeah but she always fell at the Olympics." Ahhhhhhh!!!! of course, I said "No, honey, she was was perfect in 1998 blah blah....."

Ugh. I sound like a broken record but I think these sort of discussions kind of miss the wider picture of what incredible athletes these ladies are. I mean, Sasha and Michelle and Yuna are so good that they really never (or rarely in Sasha's case) had true meltdowns. Disappointment for them means a silver or bronze or coming in fourth, at worst...

 

[miki88]

I think some of the critcisms of Sasha comes from the fact that she never managed to win a major title despite her successes and being a top skater for years. 2006 Worlds was really for her taking but she didn't manage to do it in the end and I think this disappointed a lot of people.

 

[Layfan]

^ Well, yeah, at 2006 worlds I thought, surely she'll nab this one. I think of that as the single most disappointing competition of her career.

 

[pangtongfan]

Sasha and her team promoted her as the next superstar of skating, predicted many World and Olympic titles for her, and declared that she would be even better than Michelle Kwan. That is why there is a backlash to her lack of success and failure to secure even one major victory. Of course she has a career many others would love but given the hype around her, much of it built up around herself by both her and her coaches over the years, her career fell well short of expectations. If she had the hype and potential of say Fumie Suguri people would be gushing about her career. As I said earlier she was predicted to win every Nationals and Worlds from 2003 onwards except for the 2005 Worlds where Irina was, and failed at 7 of the 8, winning a single Nationals with no competition at all with Kwan out. And each failure apart to attain the predicted victory was marked by a thud of her butt hitting the ice atleast once (ironically the 2005 Worlds which she wasnt picked to win was the only one she didnt fall at despite still not winning). Who would have predicted Arakawa would even win 2 major titles and Sasha 0. Completely shocking.

On another note what is so wrong that some Kim fans proclaim her as the greatest ever. Lord knows nearly every Kwan fan declares her as so even without an Olympic Gold.