Grand Prix Analysis, Winners/Losers

[Raomina]

Regardless of the reason, the fact is that higher PCS in fact nets the ladies fewer points than the men - hence saying that since the TES is valued the same then so should the PCS be valued the same for men & women is a logical fallacy when in fact it is not valued the same.

That is my whole point. Whether any/many of the ladies are getting too high PCS or not regardless of that is not something I feel qualified to discuss and don't really have an opinion on.

I don't think people are discussing and comparing the PCS AFTER the factoring though, just as the nominal values from 1 to 10, which can be compared between men and women. The factoring is just a readjustment of the values to get a total score that is comparable to the TES, not the actual net 'valuation' of the PCS requirements themselves.

 

[LRK]

I don't think people are discussing and comparing the PCS AFTER the factoring though, just as the nominal values from 1 to 10, which can be compared between men and women. The factoring is just a readjustment of the values to get a total score that is comparable to the TES, not the actual net 'valuation' of the PCS requirements themselves.

I quote:

"When you have an absolute scale, the score has to be absolute. Regardless of gender, a triple toe has the base value of 4.1. The woman has to rotate a triple toe to get that 4.1. "

What I am saying is that TES and PCS are not comparable. A 3T for a woman is worth the same amount of points as it is for a man. A 9 in PCS is NOT worth the same amount of points for a woman and a man.

As I said, this is ALL I am saying. Whether women should be held to the same standards, but are not, as men, is not a discussion I feel qualified to participate in, and therefore I am not. Anyway, this is the last I will say on the subject, since I am only repeating the same thing over and over in different words, and if I haven't bored anyone else, then I certainly am starting to bore myself! If I am not clear, then so be it, as I never will be.

Pray, carry on.

 

[Raomina]

I quote:

"When you have an absolute scale, the score has to be absolute. Regardless of gender, a triple toe has the base value of 4.1. The woman has to rotate a triple toe to get that 4.1. "

What I am saying is that TES and PCS are not comparable. A 3T for a woman is worth the same amount of points as it is for a man. A 9 in PCS is NOT worth the same amount of points for a woman and a man.

As I said, this is ALL I am saying. Whether women should be held to the same standards, but are not, as men, is not a discussion I feel qualified to participate in, and therefore I am not. Anyway, this is the last I will say on the subject, since I am only repeating the same thing over and over in different words, and if I haven't bored anyone else, then I certainly am starting to bore myself! If I am not clear, then so be it, as I never will be.

Pray, carry on.

The 'base' value of the PCS are still the same, and technically all the PCS in singles are scored from the same chart and scale that mean the same things. I don't think it means very much to compare the worth in points since we are not comparing overall scores between fields anyway. I don't think PCS is more valuable in the men's field just because it has a higher factoring value. Unless you mean that the judges are giving out higher PCS values in the ladies because they do not change the overall scores as much?

The reality though is that the scores are subjective and are used to judge skaters relative to each other and if that's all the top of the ladies field is going to give, the judges would be more lenient in giving a higher score because it is still 'higher than average', which, at the end of the day, is understandable because it doesn't matter how they are scored against the men when they are not competing against them. It just becomes an ordinal system, which is all it needs to be I guess.

It would be interesting though to see what the scores would be if the entire singles field was judged as one field instead of two sub fields.

 

[TGee]

This kind of elitist attitude will not help people want to learn more about the sport. Every sport has casual fans with little info about what's going on. Welcome them in, help them understand. The sport needs more fans who are knowledgeable and interested.

Hi Mango,

Agree with you.

But also wonder if there is not a subset of older fans who, as Biellmann posits, just want to watch and enjoy, and not get into any technical details. At the time many of them started watching, understanding of how to achieve various technical elements was in its earliest days, and video replays were not part of the judging process.

I constantly wonder when I watch NA television coverage of figure skating whether the various networks are really missing out on building audience by including more support for casual fans to understand what they see.

Other sports coverage never hesitates to show viewers acronyms, sub-scores and stats, and debate them endlessly during breaks in play. Why not skating? Do they know something? Have they done focus group testing that shows they might lose their core FS seniors audience if they enrich the format?

Perhaps their experiments haven't worked out. The only time I recall seeing something like this was one time when CBC had Kurt Browning trying to explain a major judging controversy. They had him almost in lecture mode, with a white screen with a protocol posted.:hopelessness:

But IMO, it should be possible and as the seniors audience declines, now is the time to explore a more sophisticated models of coverage.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

My objective observation was regarding her technical ability. Didn't mean to include her PCS into that, sorry.
Either way, she will not medal at the GPF or worlds. That is my prediction.

Well, this was many people's prediction in the last FOUR seasons -- and she's produced a GPF/Worlds medal in all 4 of those seasons. Also, even if Worlds weren't in Boston, it's pretty probable she would have medalled given the clean SP and solid FS she produced.

 

[solani]

Well, this was many people's prediction in the last FOUR seasons -- and she's produced a GPF/Worlds medal in all 4 of those seasons. Also, even if Worlds weren't in Boston, it's pretty probable she would have medalled given the clean SP and solid FS she produced.

Difficult to say. There were less than 6 points between silver and 6th place. The home crowd certainly helped her, I have no problem with that, it was to be expected. But I hope that the medal has really boosted her confidence, sometimes that's all it needs.

 

[Mango]

Hi Mango,

Agree with you.

But also wonder if there is not a subset of older fans who, as Biellmann posits, just want to watch and enjoy, and not get into any technical details. At the time many of them started watching, understanding of how to achieve various technical elements was in its earliest days, and video replays were not part of the judging process.

I constantly wonder when I watch NA television coverage of figure skating whether the various networks are really missing out on building audience by including more support for casual fans to understand what they see.

Other sports coverage never hesitates to show viewers acronyms, sub-scores and stats, and debate them endlessly during breaks in play. Why not skating? Do they know something? Have they done focus group testing that shows they might lose their core FS seniors audience if they enrich the format?

Perhaps their experiments haven't worked out. The only time I recall seeing something like this was one time when CBC had Kurt Browning trying to explain a major judging controversy. They had him almost in lecture mode, with a white screen with a protocol posted.:hopelessness:

But IMO, it should be possible and as the seniors audience declines, now is the time to explore a more sophisticated models of coverage.

It really depends on who you are watching. We discussed in another thread that the NBC's broadcast of the US Nationals shows which element was completed with TES scored, how many elements have been done, which are under review, as well as showing a pop up timer for how long the program has been going (so they can say, "Now we are in the 2nd half of the program and getting bonus points"). Here is an example with Ashley's FS. If you watch Eurosport, the guys do a great job doing commentary, pointing out underrotations and edge issues. If you watch TSN then you get Tracy Wilson explaining a lot of things. CBC's coverage varies on who is commenting (e.g. some vehemently hate Carol Lane's commentary, some enjoy Kurt's analyses about choreography and music, etc.).

I think you don't get a lot of in between analysis for figure skating events because usually there isn't a very long time between groups the way there is between for example, periods in hockey. And for most events they would rather interview the skaters or air specials filmed with them than have people doing long, detailed analyses. They may also use the time to air programs that happened earlier in the event (like if they are airing FDs only, they'll show a team's SD from the day before).

I definitely think that coverage could be better, and even want to petition the ISU to offer a subscription to their ISU Channel for residents in blacked out countries who would prefer to watch that channel. But fans can also help other fans out. I know I learn a lot about things I don't know from here. The Figure Skating References sub forum is a great place for that.

 

[TGee]

While it might equally belong in the Takeaways from the Weekend thread, I'm actually somewhat curious to know if there are any revised predictions folks would like to make as the Finlandia phase of the early senior B events wraps up...

 

[4everchan]

I concur... who is willing to revise their Canadian women ranking each one of them leaves the B series with a medal...

While it might equally belong in the Takeaways from the Weekend thread, I'm actually somewhat curious to know if there are any revised predictions folks would like to make as the Finlandia phase of the early senior B events wraps up...

 

[Norwayskater]

Does anyone have any other grand prix analysis now that Gracie and Mao is pretty much out off the final (Unless some kind off miracel happen)
Whar do you think will happen to Satoko later today. She is currently in 5th and pretty much have to skate perfect(No UR`s) to get into at least 3rd to have a chance to reach the final.

So if Gracie, Mao and Satoko are all out off the final, who do you think have a chance on getting in instead off them?

 

[Nathan13]

Does anyone have any other grand prix analysis now that Gracie and Mao is pretty much out off the final (Unless some kind off miracel happen)
Whar do you think will happen to Satoko later today. She is currently in 5th and pretty much have to skate perfect(No UR`s) to get into at least 3rd to have a chance to reach the final.

So if Gracie, Mao and Satoko are all out off the final, who do you think have a chance on getting in instead off them?

I wouldn't count Satoko out of the final yet, or even the silver medal position. Kaetlyn still has to get through the FP and nail pretty much every element. Satoko has already scored 136 with this FP, so I think she is pretty safe (not 100% sure, but feeling confident for the podium). Also, I would say Satoko is pretty safe to be 1st (maybe second at the lowest) at NHK.

I've done my own analysis that I keep updating. Before SA, I never even had Mao in the GPF. I did have Gracie, but seeing as she's now 5th I replaced her with Maria Sotskova. My current GPF projection is Medvedeva (1st and 1st), Wagner (1st and 1st), Pogorilaya (1st and 2nd), Radionova (2nd and 2nd), Miyahara (2nd or 3rd and 1st), and Sotskova (2nd and 3rd). All of this could change if Mariah Bell gets a second assignment, or if Satoko finishes 4th or lower today.

 

[Norwayskater]

I wouldn't count Satoko out of the final yet, or even the silver medal position. Kaetlyn still has to get through the FP and nail pretty much every element. Satoko has already scored 136 with this FP, so I think she is pretty safe (not 100% sure, but feeling confident for the podium). Also, I would say Satoko is pretty safe to be 1st (maybe second at the lowest) at NHK.

I've done my own analysis that I keep updating. Before SA, I never even had Mao in the GPF. I did have Gracie, but seeing as she's now 5th I replaced her with Maria Sotskova. My current GPF projection is Medvedeva (1st and 1st), Wagner (1st and 1st), Pogorilaya (1st and 2nd), Radionova (2nd and 2nd), Miyahara (2nd or 3rd and 1st), and Sotskova (2nd and 3rd). All of this could change if Mariah Bell gets a second assignment, or if Satoko finishes 4th or lower today.

I absolutely do not think off Satoko as out of contention. I am just saying she needs a good skate today, because 5th won’t cut it for the GPF.
And a good skate from Satoko will not surprise me at all, being as consistent as she is. It will be a lot up to the technical panel today.
I really hope Mariah Bell could get another assignment, but I also doubt she will get one.

 

[Nathan13]

I absolutely do not think off Satoko as out of contention. I am just saying she needs a good skate today, because 5th won’t cut it for the GPF.
And a good skate from Satoko will not surprise me at all, being as consistent as she is. It will be a lot up to the technical panel today.
I really hope Mariah Bell could get another assignment, but I also doubt she will get one.

Technically, Satoko could get a 5th and 1st and still make it to GPF (Patrick did last year), especially if Evgenia and Ashley go 1-1. It's unlikely, but possible. Jin Boyang is certainly hoping he can do it (which, according to my predictions, will be almost impossible).

 

[Alex D]

It really depends on who you are watching. We discussed in another thread that the NBC's broadcast of the US Nationals shows which element was completed with TES scored, how many elements have been done, which are under review, as well as showing a pop up timer for how long the program has been going (so they can say, "Now we are in the 2nd half of the program and getting bonus points"). Here is an example with Ashley's FS. If you watch Eurosport, the guys do a great job doing commentary, pointing out underrotations and edge issues. If you watch TSN then you get Tracy Wilson explaining a lot of things. CBC's coverage varies on who is commenting (e.g. some vehemently hate Carol Lane's commentary, some enjoy Kurt's analyses about choreography and music, etc.).

I think you don't get a lot of in between analysis for figure skating events because usually there isn't a very long time between groups the way there is between for example, periods in hockey. And for most events they would rather interview the skaters or air specials filmed with them than have people doing long, detailed analyses. They may also use the time to air programs that happened earlier in the event (like if they are airing FDs only, they'll show a team's SD from the day before).

I definitely think that coverage could be better, and even want to petition the ISU to offer a subscription to their ISU Channel for residents in blacked out countries who would prefer to watch that channel. But fans can also help other fans out. I know I learn a lot about things I don't know from here. The Figure Skating References sub forum is a great place for that.

It all comes down to money doesn't it?

A TV production costs a lot, especially if what you produce has to be bought, as with the broadcasting rights. If you consider that TV channels all around the world, work with very tight budgets and most of them, are not fully focused on sports, then you can assume how low the spare money is, for things like sports. Many people also watch TV channels, without paying money, a big issue for the BBC right now - but then again, they don´t offer the TV contracts for people abroad ...

Anyways,

Talkshows, News and reality shows, eat a lot of money and in NA ice hockey, Baseball and Football are most likely the sports that get´s most of the sports budget, so that something like FS has not a lot of money to work with. Guess why we never see computer graphics, why we don´t have a live scoring system that is more complex (that being said, I feel it would distract from the skate, so I am happy we don´t have it tbh.), why we don´t see the elements in advance - even though the press has access to them (we get them at bigger events). The tv stations, have no money for someone to present it online, nor do the skating feds and yes, not even the ISU and the guys already working there, have no time.

When I can´t be at the Superbowl, I watch it on US TV and it is impressive how the pre and postproduction is done there. So many stories about athletes and the history in advance and during play, tons of slowmotions, experts in the studio, graphics, computer animation and afterwards they talk for hours about each individual play.

Yes, I agree something like that for FS would be amazing, I really want better bios, more tracking stats (in soccer, each player has a tracking device, we know exactly where he or she was at any second in the game), but they won´t do it, unless it´s a own production like it might be with the US nationals (correct me if I am wrong, please). The market for other things is just so much bigger, I bet millions watch the election tv shows, watch Oprah and Greys Anatomy - while FS might only be seen by a few hundred K.

Here in Germany,

I offered my "skills" so often, but they can´t pay me for it and we have others in our country, that would do it too, but we can´t always work for free, we need to eat and sleep in a bed as well, so it´s really difficult and I understand your all concerns and fully agree with you, but maybe you understand the media a little bit as well and I criticize them so often, but in this case, I understand why things are as they are and if you know better about the US media stations, please correct me

 

[Mango]

quote

Alex, you lost me a bit. I just wanted a bit more stats live, like they have at US nationals. I thought even a counter would be hard to get up, but at the Hershey Centre the jumbotron didn't show TES, instead it showed a small purple box at the bottom of the screen with a timer. So they use it, they just don't show it in broadcasts. And letting people pay for the ISU broadcast wouldn't be terribly difficult for the ISU to do. Maybe when they have their social media meetings at Worlds 2017 someone can pitch this idea. Ice Network should not have the monopoly they do considering 1) They are affiliated with USFSA and 2) their coverage is usually awful. If an alternative exists, then fans have a right to have it.