How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

[4everchan]

Patrick Chan also included, at a very venerable age, the quad Salchow. He had done it in practice earlier in 2011... but never included them later on because he didn't need them or at least, he didn't think he did. When he returned to competition, he realized he had to and brought it back and performed it at the GPF in 2016 and Nationals in 2017 at the age of 27. He originally had them planned for the Olympic season, and even included it early in his Dust in the Wind SP (Detroit competition in the summer I believe) but then he got into a funk and his desire to skate clean programs made him water down his programs and he removed the salchow.

 

[Mathman]

morissey never jumped a clean quad toe loop in his career

What was wrong with his 4T at worlds? He got positive GOE on it -- mostly 1s and 0s.

 

[4everchan]

What was wrong with his 4T at worlds? He got positive GOE on it -- mostly 1s and 0s.

his toe loops look like salchows.

 

[sisinka]

morissey never jumped a clean quad toe loop in his career

Morisi doesn’t have good jumping technique. In term “clean“ I meant positive GOE, not textbook technique.

 

[sisinka]

Patrick Chan also included, at a very venerable age, the quad Salchow. He had done it in practice earlier in 2011... but never included them later on because he didn't need them or at least, he didn't think he did. When he returned to competition, he realized he had to and brought it back and performed it at the GPF in 2016 and Nationals in 2017 at the age of 27.

Thanks for information. I forgot he landed quad salchow in past. Patrick was born in December 1990, so at National and World Championships 2017 – I believe he was 26 years old.

 

[4everchan]

Thanks for information. I forgot he landed quad salchow in past. Patrick was born in December 1990, so at National and World Championships 2017 – I believe he was 26 years old.

That's correct. He was born in December and I just didn't do the maths. He was closer to 27 when he landed his last quad salchow at the small summer event but definitely 27 for his last quad toes.

 

[sisinka]

Thank you for this mentions.

I do believe that Level 4 Features offer more variants, so even naturally more rigid skaters can fulfil criterias. I definitely never want to see a skater being "punished" for his anatomy.

Because body anatomy and flexibility must be taken into account.

Some skaters have naturally more loose ligaments which allows them to be more flexible. Doing flexility exercises since childhood helps a lot in loosing ligaments as well. Many skaters are hypermobile in one or more joints and loose ligaments play smaller part in it.

But not everybody is hypermobile.

Joint's anatomy is essential coming to range of motion. Some people have joint anatomy which decreases range of motion in some directions. You cannot do anything with it despite how much or long you practise.

And if you try to get into the position which your joint is not build for - you always use wrong movement stereotypes overloading other body segments...which will lead to injury sooner or later.

I remember Miki Ando being criticized A LOT by American commentators (Dick Button, Peggy Flemming?...I am not sure). They didn't like her low flexibility especially in Spiral Sequence. From my medical view, I am almost sure that Miki has hip joint anatomy with reduced range of motion into hip extension (leg behind) and external rotation. So for her it was impossible to get proper position on classical spiral with leg behind or in Bielmann position. Some commentators never forgot to mention it, not thinking even for one second how strange it is that workoholic Japanese lady who is doing flexibility exercises for years (like everybody in figure skating) has so small range of motion in one direction.

Another part are shortened muscles or fascias or myofascial lines which decrease range of motion, it is another reason to have regular Rehabilitation treatment. I am surprised how many elite skaters are fighting with it (as it is visible even when they simply stand on the ice). I do understand that Figure Skating is expensive, but proper Rehabilitation is injury saving or injury postponing thing...it really does have sense.

As I've said in other threads, I've known many skaters, gymnasts and dancers who, like me, were born with Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome which gives us natural hypermobility. We gravitate to activities that reward that. In the last Olympics, when I saw one skater take an opening pose by linking her hands behind her back, the left hand coming down from over her shoulder and the right coming up from waist height, I had to laugh. Standard EDS party trick. My mother could still do that easily in her 80s. When commentators raved about the same skater's free leg elevation on jump landings, I thought, "Drop around to my rink some time. I'm not half the skater she is, but that's how I've always done spirals and jump landings."

On the other hand, most skaters I know with EDS prefer to be overbooted because we sprain ankles easily, and those of us in pairs do more than the usual strength training for the upper back and arms for lifts because our arm joints tend to come apart more easily.

I believe that this topic belongs more to this Thread.

1) Joint's anatomy which reduces range of motion into certain directions or
2) Hypermobility including skaters with hypermobile type of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

...ARE another important topics which should be discussed.

I do believe that ISU or / and Skating Federations should be aware of these topics and should lead their coaching teams, skating parents and skaters themselves to get educated.
To avoid of LONG journey with injuries and pain....which could be at least partially prevented.
The sooner problem (both hypermobility / decreased range of motion in certain joint) is mentioned the better for skater to adapt and adjust to the situation.

I didn't find any mentions about these topics googling, not at ISU, not at any Federation's pages.


I have few questions for @Diana Delafield , if you wouldn't mind to share it with us.

1) Is there any knowledge how big is percentage of skaters having Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? I didn't find anything on Internet, just few mentions that it is more common in figure skating and gymnastics.

2) In what age you were diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and who initiated it?

3) Did some coaches gave you any advices about hypermobility or additional strengthening exercises? Or you had to find out yourself...?

4) Do you know skaters with such hypermobility who would get joint dislocation without fall? On elite level? Because I suppose that people with such high hypermobility are not able to stay in figure skating on elite level as number of injuries is not allowing it.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I believe that this topic belongs more to this Thread.

1) Joint's anatomy which reduces range of motion into certain directions or
2) Hypermobility including skaters with hypermobile type of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome

...ARE another important topics which should be discussed.

I do believe that ISU or / and Skating Federations should be aware of these topics and should lead their coaching teams, skating parents and skaters themselves to get educated.
To avoid of LONG journey with injuries and pain....which could be at least partially prevented.
The sooner problem (both hypermobility / decreased range of motion in certain joint) is mentioned the better for skater to adapt and adjust to the situation.

I didn't find any mentions about these topics googling, not at ISU, not at any Federation's pages.


I have few questions for @Diana Delafield , if you wouldn't mind to share it with us.

I can give you some answers, but I'm afraid you won't find them quite what you need. EDS has been running in my mother's family for generations and we tend to take it quite casually, like the relatives on my father's side take having red hair and a tendency to freckle and burn in the sun. No more attention paid to our quirky syndrome than that, really.

1) Is there any knowledge how big is percentage of skaters having Ehlers Danlos Syndrome? I didn't find anything on Internet, just few mentions that it is more common in figure skating and gymnastics.

I've never seen any statistics for skaters, gymnasts, or dancers. About five (?) years ago there was going to be a study done on EDS in general at the Women's Hospital (although EDS is not restricted to women) in Vancouver, BC, and my family doctor talked me into being a study subject as someone with an average, easily manageable level of it. I spent a day at the hospital being tested and interviewed, but never heard anything more about it. I think their funding got suspended and the study never got going again, that I know of. I did gather that studies were few and far between, and what there was concentrated on those with serious versions who were not able to take advantage of their syndrome by getting involved in sports or dance.

2) In what age you were diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and who initiated it?

I've known all my life, I guess since my older relatives noticing me being more flexible than most toddlers and just said, "Oh, we've got another one here, do we?" It wasn't a diagnosis in the medical sense. My mother had it, two of my four brothers, our grandmother and several of her siblings. Everyone knows the signs. If you can do our party tricks like bending over with no warming up, no knee bend, and put your hands flat on the floor between your feet, and then walk your hands back so they end up still flat on the floor but behind your feet.....you've got EDS. (My mother could still do that one in her 80s.)

3) Did some coaches gave you any advices about hypermobility or additional strengthening exercises? Or you had to find out yourself...?

My first coach was my grandmother's cousin and she had EDS herself. There wasn't any need for advice or discussion of it, not with me anyway. I was in kindergarten, taking skating lessons, Highland dance lessons, tumbling lessons. There may have been some discussion between my grandmother, mother and family-member-coach, but I never heard about it. I was probably steered the right way without realizing it. When I took up pairs in my mid-teens, my coach did tell me to work more on strengthening exercises for my arms and upper back since I was going to have to lock my elbows in lifts, and needed a solid core, "and you know the way your elbows and shoulders wobble around because your joints are looser than some of the other girls". I guess I did the right things, but that was a very long time ago. Around 1970 somewhere? A lot of memory cells have fallen by the wayside since then! Whatever I did must have worked, because I'm still pairs skating, for fun now.

4) Do you know skaters with such hypermobility who would get joint dislocation without fall? On elite level? Because I suppose that people with such high hypermobility are not able to stay in figure skating on elite level as number of injuries is not allowing it.

No, not personally, not in skating. I remember one boy having to drop out of ballet and a girl my daughter knew from rhythmic gymnastics, both in their early teens, because of frequent dislocations, and I'm fairly sure I heard they both had more serious EDS variants than I did, but as you say, people like that don't last long in sports at even a low level. People with an EDS variant that enhances their athletic ability rather than hinders it are the ones who make it to the elite level.

Not too much help to you, I'm afraid. Where you could find out more would be from the few societies for rare diseases, but I don't recall any specific names. I did belong to one for a few years out of curiosity, but all I remember is that the name was something to do with zebras. As in the medical school dictum about diagnosing from symptoms: If you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras. People with rare syndromes like to think of themselves as zebras.

 

[sisinka]

I can give you some answers, but I'm afraid you won't find them quite what you need. EDS has been running in my mother's family for generations and we tend to take it quite casually, like the relatives on my father's side take having red hair and a tendency to freckle and burn in the sun. No more attention paid to our quirky syndrome than that, really.

I've never seen any statistics for skaters, gymnasts, or dancers. About five (?) years ago there was going to be a study done on EDS in general at the Women's Hospital (although EDS is not restricted to women) in Vancouver, BC, and my family doctor talked me into being a study subject as someone with an average, easily manageable level of it. I spent a day at the hospital being tested and interviewed, but never heard anything more about it. I think their funding got suspended and the study never got going again, that I know of. I did gather that studies were few and far between, and what there was concentrated on those with serious versions who were not able to take advantage of their syndrome by getting involved in sports or dance.


I've known all my life, I guess since my older relatives noticing me being more flexible than most toddlers and just said, "Oh, we've got another one here, do we?" It wasn't a diagnosis in the medical sense. My mother had it, two of my four brothers, our grandmother and several of her siblings. Everyone knows the signs. If you can do our party tricks like bending over with no warming up, no knee bend, and put your hands flat on the floor between your feet, and then walk your hands back so they end up still flat on the floor but behind your feet.....you've got EDS. (My mother could still do that one in her 80s.)

My first coach was my grandmother's cousin and she had EDS herself. There wasn't any need for advice or discussion of it, not with me anyway. I was in kindergarten, taking skating lessons, Highland dance lessons, tumbling lessons. There may have been some discussion between my grandmother, mother and family-member-coach, but I never heard about it. I was probably steered the right way without realizing it. When I took up pairs in my mid-teens, my coach did tell me to work more on strengthening exercises for my arms and upper back since I was going to have to lock my elbows in lifts, and needed a solid core, "and you know the way your elbows and shoulders wobble around because your joints are looser than some of the other girls". I guess I did the right things, but that was a very long time ago. Around 1970 somewhere? A lot of memory cells have fallen by the wayside since then! Whatever I did must have worked, because I'm still pairs skating, for fun now.


No, not personally, not in skating. I remember one boy having to drop out of ballet and a girl my daughter knew from rhythmic gymnastics, both in their early teens, because of frequent dislocations, and I'm fairly sure I heard they both had more serious EDS variants than I did, but as you say, people like that don't last long in sports at even a low level. People with an EDS variant that enhances their athletic ability rather than hinders it are the ones who make it to the elite level.

Not too much help to you, I'm afraid. Where you could find out more would be from the few societies for rare diseases, but I don't recall any specific names. I did belong to one for a few years out of curiosity, but all I remember is that the name was something to do with zebras. As in the medical school dictum about diagnosing from symptoms: If you hear hoofbeats, think first of horses, not zebras. People with rare syndromes like to think of themselves as zebras.

Thank you for answers, I appreciate it.
It was an interesting read. I believe that sharing own experience publicly may help other people who fight with these problems.

Unfortunately many health troubles are overlooked till skater / athlete starts to have big troubles or starts to be in big pain. But troubles and pain means decompensation. It is always much better to solve things before they decompensate - it goes much faster and much more easy. After decompensation it very often happens that some things will never be repaired. Once you destroy cartilago or bone or rupture muscles, it will never get into healthy state like it was before the injury.

I heard about "zebra's pages", I remember reading that sentence about zebra and horse.

Some skaters were doing ballet or gymnastics on full time level during childhood simultaneously with figure skating. Some were pretty successful. Juulia Turkkila danced at the Opera's ballet school until she was 13 years old. Emanuel Sandhu graduated from National Ballet School of Canada.

Both gymnastics and ballet are concentrating on increasing flexibility. And overlooking child hypermobility not concentrating on strengthening exercises and good stabilization of joint - may increase health troubles in teenager age.

Figure skaters have very often flat feet (which is also quite common in hypermobile people). If not properly corrected with insolves and exercises - it will negatively influence mainly (but not only) ankle joint. Ankle will be in valgus position (pronation), more prone to spraining, ligament injury, cartilago will be destroyed sooner and artrosis will come sooner as well.
Having naturally too loose ankle joint thanks to hypermobility...and not taking care about flat feet with its consequences...that is very bad combination.

By the way reading your story I had a flashback - Alisa Czisny had terrible injury. In 2013 she dislocated her hip joint after fall in jump. Which is very rare injury. I remember she was very flexible lady. So this kind of injury offers the idea of hypermobility. But I also suspect specific hip joint anatomy. Acetabulum is a part of hip joint (cavity for thigh bone). Smaller depth of acetabulum and smaller acetabular depth-to-width ratio will be associated with bigger possibility of dislocation.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Thank you for answers, I appreciate it.
It was an interesting read. I believe that sharing own experience publicly may help other people who fight with these problems.

Unfortunately many health troubles are overlooked till skater / athlete starts to have big troubles or starts to be in big pain. But troubles and pain means decompensation. It is always much better to solve things before they decompensate - it goes much faster and much more easy. After decompensation it very often happens that some things will never be repaired. Once you destroy cartilago or bone or rupture muscles, it will never get into healthy state like it was before the injury.

I heard about "zebra's pages", I remember reading that sentence about zebra and horse.

Some skaters were doing ballet or gymnastics on full time level during childhood simultaneously with figure skating. Some were pretty successful. Juulia Turkkila danced at the Opera's ballet school until she was 13 years old. Emanuel Sandhu graduated from National Ballet School of Canada.

Both gymnastics and ballet are concentrating on increasing flexibility. And overlooking child hypermobility not concentrating on strengthening exercises and good stabilization of joint - may increase health troubles in teenager age.

Figure skaters have very often flat feet (which is also quite common in hypermobile people). If not properly corrected with insolves and exercises - it will negatively influence mainly (but not only) ankle joint. Ankle will be in valgus position (pronation), more prone to spraining, ligament injury, cartilago will be destroyed sooner and artrosis will come sooner as well.
Having naturally too loose ankle joint thanks to hypermobility...and not taking care about flat feet with its consequences...that is very bad combination.

By the way reading your story I had a flashback - Alisa Czisny had terrible injury. In 2013 she dislocated her hip joint after fall in jump. Which is very rare injury. I remember she was very flexible lady. So this kind of injury offers the idea of hypermobility. But I also suspect specific hip joint anatomy. Acetabulum is a part of hip joint (cavity for thigh bone). Smaller depth of acetabulum and smaller acetabular depth-to-width ratio will be associated with bigger possibility of dislocation.

I guess my two grandmothers collaborated . One of them gave me the EDS (which we don't consider a disorder or problem in our family, just a physical quirk like being left-handed or red-haired). The other grandmother bequeathed me her small feet with very high arches. I guess whether one sees any of those as problems that need to be addressed depends on the severity and also a lot on one's generation. So many things being diagnosed and treated and having adaptations made for nowadays that were just shrugged off in my era!

 

[sisinka]

... I guess whether one sees any of those as problems that need to be addressed depends on the severity and also a lot on one's generation. So many things being diagnosed and treated and having adaptations made for nowadays that were just shrugged off in my era!

Good mention.

As to severity:
There is the proverb: Dripping water hollows out stone, not through force but through persistence.

Certain body anatomy means predisposition to certain muscle imbalances, certain joint overloading and sooner certain joint / soft tissue damage. Muscle imbalances, joint's wrong position is predisposition to chronic health troubles. Thanks to big demands in today's sport all those injuries will come sooner and will be more serious.

Overloading is big problem in today's world in non sport population. It is only enlarged in sport population.

For example looking at landings in jumps - which is probably the main reason for overloading leading to stress fractures in Figure Skating - looking at Internet landing force is equal to 5 to 8 times of your weight (original calculation is in Newtons). Every minor thing in your body posture or strengthening matters when your body handles such forces in landings.

Rehabilitations specialists are not only for saying to you how you look at the moment. Based of posture, movement stereotypes...we can see what kind of health problems you will handle if you don't change things.

As to different generations:
I agree that many things were overlooked in past. I also think that previous sport generations lived in different times - no mental coaches and psychologists, no warning about eating disorders and so on. Practises didn't take as much time. Physical demands were lower.

But still it is great to take experience from previous generations and get inspired. Their knowledge may help an athlete to improve, to avoid mistakes. I like watching documentaries about Figure Skating - old or new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf33AnNrLIg - I remember this documentary - opening talks of first 1:20 minute were so lovely describing what Figure Skating is.

 

[sisinka]

On Saturday I was on a medical interdisciplinary conference organised by Plagio clinic.

Plagio clinic has international network of clinics specialised solely on the treatment of positional skull deformities in children using cranial orthoses.

I talked to Co-founder and Head of Business Development at Invent Medical Group Mr. Jan Rosicky.

Invent Medical Group specialises on 3D orthotic & prosthetic products (3D scanning, 3D printing). They have branches in Czech Republic, USA and Germany. More than 35 countries are using their products.

I asked about helmet for athletes, mentioning figure skating.

They cooperate with athletes - but they are creating facial masks (after facial fractures, recovering in post-surgery states, and preventing injury in contact sports). https://www.raptormask.com/

As to helmets they are creating them for people suffering with epilepsy (to protect their head during falls). https://www.facebook.com/inventmedical/videos/1620980132035717/?app=fbl

Helmets (mainly for children) can be designed with different colours, your name, picture.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

I also talked to prosthesis specialist Mrs. Monika Andrlova from Plagio clinic about possibility of helmets for figure skaters because of big number of concussions. She was interested about the topic, mentioning it is a good idea (that was compliment for you @Mathman). She mentioned that their helmets are much more lighter, better curved, they fit better.

I could hold helmets in my hands, they are really much lighter. For babies it is important to have light helmet, I found that helmet varies from 215 - 370 grams. Prosthesis specialist thought that helmet for adult skater could be less than 500 grams using their technology. (Normal helmet has around 1000 grams.)

So potencially there is another possibility for cranial protection for figure skaters using individually made protective helmet (3D scanning means perfect fit). Helmets mentioned above are much lighter than other helmets used in other sports. Still they offer high protection (new helmets were tested, they have 40% more impact protection.)

 

[AlexBreeze]

If we look at "QUAD SKATERS" - men landing quad jump / jumps (toeloop or salchow, not more then three quad jumps in FP) being close to 30 years of age...there are not many. From those I do remember:

Nobunari Oda - born in March 1987 - still lands quad toe loops in Japanese domestic competitions.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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Konstantin Milyukov - born in March 1994 - landed quad salchow at the Olympics 2022 (age 27).

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Mikhail Kolyada - born in February 1995 - landed quad toe loops in his last season (2022/23, age 27).

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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http://rez.fskating.spb.ru/images/result/2223/0508102022Panin/ooeaaeMC__Scores.pdf

 

[Magill]

Nobunari Oda - born in March 1987 - still lands quad toe loops in Japanese domestic competitions.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

Konstantin Milyukov - born in March 1994 - landed quad salchow at the Olympics 2022 (age 27).

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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Mikhail Kolyada - born in February 1995 - landed quad toe loops in his last season (2022/23, age 27).

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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http://rez.fskating.spb.ru/images/result/2223/0508102022Panin/ooeaaeMC__Scores.pdf

Yuzuru Hanyu (1994) is still landing a number of quads in each of his shows, at 29, to turn 30 in December.

 

[sisinka]

Nobunari Oda - born in March 1987 - still lands quad toe loops in Japanese domestic competitions.

Konstantin Milyukov - born in March 1994 - landed quad salchow at the Olympics 2022 (age 27).

Mikhail Kolyada - born in February 1995 - landed quad toe loops in his last season (2022/23, age 27).

Thank you!

I plan to partially correct my list. I will include skaters you mentioned.

Nobunari was 36 years old while competing at Winter Sport Festival in January 2024. That is amazing!

 

[sisinka]

Yuzuru Hanyu (1994) is still landing a number of quads in each of his shows, at 29, to turn 30 in December.

Yes, I know, somebody already mentioned that. That is admirable.

I was listing skaters who landed quad jump or jumps at competitions. Yuzuru Hanyu is listed among multiple quad skaters. He landed quad jumps at competition being 27 years old for the last time.

If he will skate at Japan domestic competition like Nobunari or at Japan Open and lands some quad jump or jumps there, I will correct the list for sure. By the way why didn't he skate at Japan Open? He would be strong competitor, big inspiration for young skating stars and Japan public loves him.

 

[Magill]

Yes, I know, somebody already mentioned that. That is admirable.

I was listing skaters who landed quad jump or jumps at competitions. Yuzuru Hanyu is listed among multiple quad skaters. He landed quad jumps at competition being 27 years old for the last time.

If he will skate at Japan domestic competition like Nobunari or at Japan Open and lands some quad jump or jumps there, I will correct the list for sure. By the way why didn't he skate at Japan Open? He would be strong competitor, big inspiration for young skating stars and Japan public loves him.

Yuzuru turned professional and withdrew from competitions at 27. He does not like the word "retired" so fans respect that, and in fact he is far from "retired". But he does not participate in any competitions, neither international, nor domestic, just performs at shows, his own solo shows, which he calls "Ice Stories", and more "regular" shows with other skaters, which he also creates and produces. His shows are big events and get a lot of publicity and - you'right here - he is a huge inspiration and the public loves him. And he still jumps quads during these shows. But I doubt it he will ever be seen at any kind d of competitive format again, even a fun one, like Japan Open.
I don't know how it sits with your list

 

[AlexBreeze]

Another "age" question is about "MULTIPLE QUAD SKATERS" (three and more quad jumps, one of them being loop / flip / lutz / axel):

You probably forgot
Mikhail Shaidorov - born June 2004 - competes with 4Lz, 4F (or 4S), two 4Ts
https://skatingscores.com/kaz/men/mikhail_shaidorov/

Shun Sato - born February 2004 - attempted 4Lz, 4F, two 4Ts in a free

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Daniel Grassl - born April 2002 - known for his multiple quads

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Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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Hello everybody. I am collecting datas into Thread: How should ISU address potentially dangerous elements?

I created a list of skaters with multiple quad jumps = "MULTIPLE QUAD SKATERS" (three and more quad jumps in Free Program, one of them being loop / flip / lutz / axel).

I don't have knowledge about today's Russian skaters. If you would know somebody who is executing multiple quads at competitions, could you let me know, please? Or write straight on the Thread.

List is here in the last part of the post - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...dangerous-elements.98149/page-10#post-3281675

I need name of skater, his birthday - months and year, date of competition and executed quad jumps. I don't persist on all quad jumps beeing landed cleanly.

@AlexBreeze helped with few skaters. And I am looking for more datas.

Now about your question regarding Russian skaters

Dmitri Aliev - born June 1999 - landed 4Lz, 4S, 4T (attempted two 4Ts, one of them was popped)

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Alexei Erokhov - born September 1999 - competed with 4Lo, 4T, 4S in 2021/22 season

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Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

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Makar Ignatov - born June 2000 - competes with 4Lo, 4S, two 4Ts

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Petr Gumennik - born April 2002 - sometimes attempts 4Lz, 4Lo and 4S in a free

http://figure.skating.by/competition/2023-24/interclub/Friendship_Cup_2023/FSKMSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

http://rez.fskating.spb.ru/images/result/2324/2728012024ChempSPB/MC__Scores.pdf

Evgeni Semenenko - born July 2003 - landed 4Lo, 4S, two 4Ts in a free

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Mark Kondratiuk - born September 2003 - competes with 4Lz, 4T, two 4Ss

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Gleb Lutfullin - born March 2004 - usually competes with 4Lo, 4T, two 4Ss

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The only clean skate: http://rez.fskating.spb.ru/images/result/2223/2829012023ChempionatSPB/OOO__Scores.pdf

Andrei Anisimov - born June 2004 - attempted 4F, 4Lo, 4S in 2022/23 season

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skatingscores.com

Ivan Popov - born July 2004 - attempted 4F, 4S, 4T in a competition

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Grigory Fedorov - born July 2005 - competes with 4Lz, 4F, 4T

http://ffkm.ru/images/files/online/2024-01-29_chaikovskaya/a__Scores.pdf

http://ffkm.ru/images/files/online/2024-01-24_pp/OMCM15__Scores.pdf

Arseniy Fedotov - born September 2009 - competes with 4Lz, 4S, 4T

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Lev Lazarev - born November 2009 - competes with 4Lz, 4F, 4T

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skatingscores.com

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

 

[sisinka]

Yuzuru turned professional and withdrew from competitions at 27. He does not like the word "retired" so fans respect that, and in fact he is far from "retired". But he does not participate in any competitions, neither international, nor domestic, just performs at shows, his own solo shows, which he calls "Ice Stories", and more "regular" shows with other skaters, which he also creates and produces. His shows are big events and get a lot of publicity and - you'right here - he is a huge inspiration and the public loves him. And he still jumps quads during these shows. But I doubt it he will ever be seen at any kind d of competitive format again, even a fun one, like Japan Open.
I don't know how it sits with your list

I am counting quad jumps attempted in competition, so Yuzuru is out of this at the moment. As his last competition was in 2022.

But I am taking retirement mention back.

You probably forgot
....
Now about your question regarding Russian skaters
...

Wow, so many skaters. I am updating list of quad skaters and multiple quad skaters, I will add most of them to the list. Thank you.

After your first post, I realised that I didn't add Mikhail Shaidorov. And day later I also realised that I forgot Italian skaters - Matteo Rizzo and Daniel Grassl. So they were in my plan for updating. But I have to admit that I completely forgot Shun Sato. Sorry.

I used to watch almost all warm-up groups from most of cathegories in past. Both from Grand Prix and Championships. But not having enough free time anymore, my knowledge of performances is lower.

Looking at results page: both Arseniy Fedotov and Lev Lazarev are attempting quad jumps at competition since 2021/22 season - since they were 12 years old. Which probably means that they are practising quad jump since being 10 - 11 years old. For example Popov attempted quad jump at competition since season 2020/21 - being 16 years old. Fedorov since 2021/22 season - being 16 years old. I am not very enthusiastic about starting to learn quad jumps in such young age (in case of Arseniy and Lev).

 

[sisinka]

Updated!
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...dangerous-elements.98149/page-10#post-3281675

The dynamics of the take off is slowering a little bit after 25 year of age. Most probably enough to land all triple jumps in men cathegory. I wanted to see how many skaters are able to land clean quad jump after being 25 years old.

List of skaters landing quad jump at competition and being at least over 27 years of age:

Nobunari Oda - born in March 1987 - landed clean quad toeloop at 78th JP Winter Sport Festival in January 2024 (36 years old)

Alexei Bychenko - born in February 1988 - landed quad toeloop in SP at Golden Spin of Zagreb 2021 (33 years old)

Konstantin Menshov - born in February 1983 - landed two quad toeloops in FP at European Championships 2014, landed quad salchow in SP and quad toeloop in FP at NHK Trophy 2015, landed quad toeloop and salchow in SP and quad toeloop in FP at Skate America 2015 (in 2015 he was 32 years old)

Sergei Voronov - born in October 1987 - landed quad toeloop in both SP and FP at NHK Trophy 2019 and the same at Grand Prix in France (32 years old)

Michal Brezina - born in March 1990 - in September 2021 he landed quad salchow in both SP and FP at U.S. Classic International Figure Skating Classic (31 years old)

Evgeni Plushenko - born in November 1982 - landed quad toeloop in both SP and FP at Olympics 2014 - Team Event (31 years old)

Keegan Messing - born in January 1992 - landed quad toeloop in SP and two quad toeloops in FP at World Championships 2023 (31 years old)

Elvis Stojko - born in March 1972 - at the Olympics 2002 he landed quad toeloop in SP (mistake in landing), two quad toeloops in FP (29 years old)

Brian Joubert - born in September 1984 - landed quad toeloop in SP and two quad toeloops in FP at the Olympics 2014 (29 years old)

Jeremy Abbott - born in June 1985 - landed clean quad toeloop in FP at World Championships 2014, he was competing next season as well, but didn't land clean quad jump (at World Championships 2014 he was 28 years old)

Frederic Dambier - born in December 1977 - landed quad salchow in FP at European Championships 2006 (28 years old)

Morisi Kvitelashvili - born in March 1995 - he landed clean quad salchow and toeloop in FP at World Championships 2023 (28 years old)

Konstantin Milyukov - born in March 1994 - landed quad salchow at the Olympics 2022 (27 years old)

Javier Fernandez - born in April 1991 - landed quad salchow at toeloop in both SP and FP at European Championships 2019 (27 years old)

Mikhail Kolyada - born in February 1995 - landed quad toeloop in his last season 2022/23 - last competition in November 2022 (27 years old)

Tomas Verner - born in June 1986 - landed clean quad toeloop in SP at World Championships 2014 and clean quad toeloop in FP at European Championships 2014 (27 years old)

Daisuke Takahashi - born in March 1986 - landed clean quad toeloop in both SP and FP at NHK Trophy 2013 (27 years old)

Kevin Reynolds - born in July 1990 - landed two clean quad toeloops in FP at 4 Continents Championships 2018 (27 years old)

Ivan Dinev - born in November 1978 - landed quad toeloop in FP at World Championships 2006 (27 years old)

Yuzuru Hanyu - born in December 1994 - clean quad toeloops in both SP and FP at Olympics 2022 (27 years old)

Patrick Chan - born in December 1990 - landed quad toeloop in both SP and FP at Olympics 2018 (27 years old)


My general conclusion is that it is possible to execute quad jump (toeloop or salchow) even in moment when muscle fibres start to change (after 25 years of age) which effects negatively jumping qualities.