"Impossible" Jumps

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, Joe, I think we simply must recognize that Skating is a sport, and sport is about pushing the human body as far as it can go. The entire reason that sports are important are because they reflect the human spirit. Great athletes show us how remarkable the human being can be and what we can accomplish with devout dedication.

I would definitely agree with you if we could get rid of that music. Diving, another sport which does not rely on music, and Men's gymnastics tumbling doesn't rely on mjusic. Both of those Sports are upping the technical every year. Why should the Men who do quads like Joubert be subjected to music when they are not musical? They should be judged on their ability to spin many rotations in the air.

Joe

 

[Zuranthium]

I think you're being purposefully acerbic.

Even with the Quad/Quad around, the sport would clearly be about far more than jumping.

Surya Bonaly was by far the best jumper in her day and never claimed the top spot at Worlds. Timothy Goebel out-jumped his Russian competitors in 2002 and 2003 at Worlds and Olympics but still placed below them. Kwan was often outjumped but still won by a good margin.

 

[icesk8erdude4e]

I am currently looking for the reports on Chengjiang Li's quad-quad combo. I don't know if any of them will have one set for competition or consistent enough. Chengjiang Li I believe deserved to be World Bronze Medallist in 2003 he clearly outskated Honda in my opinion.

Well we'll see what the future has in store, I hope for sure to see some of these upper level jumps but we'll see. I hope to have quadruple axel on the ice some day for sure cuz i just love to jump.

 

[Oscilla]

I don't know if any of them will have one set for competition or consistent enough.

I guess we won't know for a while at least, as he just withdrew because of asthma.
The reports are at FSU in the Cup of China forum. Nothing specyfic, though.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Even with the Quad/Quad around, the sport would clearly be about far more than jumping.

glad go hear you say that but you did say pushing the body as far as it can go is Sport.

Should all the downhill skiers quit their sport and take up that over the top skiing event by skiing off cliffs which have pushed skiing to a greater Sport? Well maybe, but it's not for me. Downhill skiers have their game.

If you use music, imo, one must skate to it. That's what make Free Skating so wonderful. I don't care how many rotations you do in the air if is not with the music. JMO

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Seanibu - Do you really want to see Figure Skating become another Extreme Sport? Can't you see Figure Skating on a Skateboard track!

tell me, what is your source for your believing that by definition Sport is pushing one's body beyond its limits?

My little dictionary just says it's an athletic activity. That would take care of shooting Whooping Cranes on their flight from Mexico to Wisconsin. Wouldn't it?

I believe Figure Skating is part tricks and part music which can not be separated. Do the tricks you want but do not ignore the music.

There are some sports fans (spectators) who get off on watching Extreme Sportman miss and break bones. argh.

Joe

 

[amber68]

I believe Figure Skating is part tricks and part music which can not be separated. Do the tricks you want but do not ignore the music.

Joe

But the reverse is also true: Have as much choreography as you want but do not ignore the tricks (it's an athletic competition after all!)
Figure skating is an Olympic sport and the OLympic motto "Citius,altius, fortius" applies.
The small children start figure skating for various reasons but they ALL are told that it is a sport. In the first years of training there's almost no music involved (O.K there's some playing in the background) and the little ones keep repeating and trying to improve elements like in any other sport.
So clearly, remaining in this sport and becoming competitive has nothing to do with the need of expressing emotions, creativity, artistry since for many years nobody focuses on these.
If a skater discovers, at a later stage, that is not gifted with any artistic quality but has exceptional athletic abilities should he be rewarded with first place or not?

 

[Zuranthium]

If you use music, imo, one must skate to it. That's what make Free Skating so wonderful. I don't care how many rotations you do in the air if is not with the music. JMO

Joe

Perhaps you're confusing Ice Dance with Freestyle Skating.

It's pretty much impossible to have a Freestyle performance in which EVERYTHING goes along with the music perfectly.

By your reasoning, spins should rarely be more than just a few rotations. Otherwise they will never be a perfect match for the music.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

But the reverse is also true: Have as much choreography as you want but do not ignore the tricks (it's an athletic competition after all!)
Figure skating is an Olympic sport and the OLympic motto "Citius,altius, fortius" applies.

We are in agreement. Cannot separate one from the other.

The small children start figure skating for various reasons but they ALL are told that it is a sport. In the first years of training there's almost no music involved (O.K there's some playing in the background) and the little ones keep repeating and trying to improve elements like in any other sport.
So clearly, remaining in this sport and becoming competitive has nothing to do with the need of expressing emotions, creativity, artistry since for many years nobody focuses on these.

Little children do what they are told and do not push the body for executing quads!. For me, it is clear that expressing emotions, creativity, and somewhat artistry is icing on a cake that takes time. Little children haven't lived long enough to feel life's emotions but they do try to mimic it. argh. They emulate those superior skaters for which they idolize. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not great skating. If they are genetically musical, half the battle has already been won.

If a skater discovers, at a later stage, that is not gifted with any artistic quality but has exceptional athletic abilities should he be rewarded with first place or not?

Gold medals are handed out for the 'best performance' THAT NIGHT.

BRING ON THE ALMIGHTY QUAD AND QUINT FOR THE BEST IN SHOW

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I think Joe and Mafke have a good point. I look at figure skating from the point of view not only of the athletes but also of the audience that we hope to attract.

To me, the trouble with Altius and all that -- with Olympic sports in general -- is that no one gives two hoots about whether a high jumper can jump 8 feet or whether someone can walk ten kilometers on snow shoes faster than someone else.

How many people bought tickets to attend the last world championship in swimming or Greco-Roman wrestling?

These are wonderful sports and the participants take justifiable pride in their accomplishments. But IMHO figure skating has a potential to do all that and also to be something that people want to watch.

 

[SeaniBu]

Seanibu - Do you really want to see Figure Skating become another Extreme Sport? Can't you see Figure Skating on a Skateboard track!

I am starting to feel like I shouldn't even post - what's that, did I just hear some cheering???

I never felt such a thing and don't understand where this notion would come from. ? I have tried - and I guess I have failed - to stress how important I feel the balance between the two (art and athletics) is of the utmost importance to me.
- Now I read over that last sentence and don't see how anyone could take it any other way then wanting both to be equally important, but I feel like I keep saying it over and over. Take away either one and the whole "face" of FS will change in a way I will not like.

I also said I don't think it is important to do Quintuple jumps or even the 4x4 unless the skaters are getting good quality single quads which I have not see with relative consistency. So the idea of moving in the direction of those jumps I feel is counter productive to the sport and will not be keeping the balance between Art and Sport. Which I want.

The notion that upcoming athletes can be controlled ("little kids will do what you tell them ) is ludicrous. I brought this point up when I first started posting do to my concern over youngsters getting unnecessary injury by pushing it to far. The idea that you can tell someone with a competitive spirt not to "push" is the issue. I think the push in the area of sports MORE than artistic is NOT the direction I want to see the sport go. But not embracing the attitude they are going to want to try is the issue that needs to be addressed along with stressing the artistic - some are going to want to try no matter how much anyone tells them not to. Maybe a stupid example but "Ice Castles" is an example that I feel is true. She tried anyway.

So straight up answer, NO I DO NOT WANT IT TO BE AN EXTREME SPORT. I don't now how that came to mind from my posts but I will assume responsibility for misleading anyone in thinking that. Again I say the BALANCE between Art and SPORT is what makes FS so great to me. And I feel like sport is being pushed too much now with the CoP but I think there is a reason for that.

To judge art leaves more subject to individual interpretation so the emphasis is now on what can more objectively be scored and agreed on by ALL watching. At least there are points to specify why.

Blaa blaa I will likely be misunderstood again so I hope this was clear yet I am sure someone thinks I am said something I am trying desperately not to.
Joe, I am not sure how you got that message from me out of a comment like

I love the fact persons like Joesitz are pushing the artistic and persons like Zuranthium are stressing the "nature" of "sports." I think it shows they are both recognizing each others points yet (possibly inadvertantly) keeping a balance between the two. If you loose the drive to try and go that little bit further then the sports aspect starts to suffer, likewise the push to go to far and the artistic element will suffer. FS should allow for the perfect formula.

To me this clearly says both in equal amounts of emphasis are important there, for stating I care about them both equally.

A 4x4 jump would would likely be sloppy and not done well anyway, it would be better to get the points for something clean.

I don't understand where this idea I wanted it to be an extreme sport and have art suffer came from, but again I claim responsibility for misleading.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, Seanibu, but to me it read clearly like I'm pushing Artistry (which I am not.) and Z is pushing Technical.(I don't think he/she is either)

Figure Skating is part and parcel, tricks and music.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, Seanibu, but to me it read clearly like I'm pushing Artistry (which I am not.) and Z is pushing Technical.(I don't think he/she is either)

Figure Skating is part and parcel, tricks and music.

Joe

No worries, for some reason I was understood when sending emails at work but here at GS it happens a lot. I believe it is my fault.

Now it sounds like I have been misinterpreting you? Do you want the Artistic aspect to go away? Or a balance. Skating in "skate bowls" sounds cool, but I would conceder that a totally different sport.

 

[pohatta]

To me, the trouble with Altius and all that -- with Olympic sports in general -- is that no one gives two hoots about whether a high jumper can jump 8 feet or whether someone can walk ten kilometers on snow shoes faster than someone else.

How many people bought tickets to attend the last world championship in swimming or Greco-Roman wrestling?

Swimming and Greco-Roman wrestling championships are widely covered prime time television entertainment in many countries. I haven't seen any attendance problems in the stands either.

 

[Mafke]

Again, FS is not a 'higher, faster, etc-er' sport, it's a technique sport (or should be).

In a high jumping contest, it doesn't matter how ugly your jumping looks as long as you can clear the bar in the appropriate matter. In racing, as long as you're first past the line it doesn't matter how crappy your running technique is to purists.

In skating things are supposed to be done in a certain way. A jump should have a certain entry with particular foot/edge positions, the body is supposed to be in a certain position in the air and the landing on a back outside edge with some flow.

Since the demise of figures a lot of technique has gone out the window (the difference between the lutz and flip is getting less every year as fewer and fewer top ranked skaters can be bothered to do both the right way) but it's still there.

Quads are a very iffy thing and the technique isn't as worked out as triple technique is (there seems to be a self-taught aspect to most successful quadsters). They're convenient for judges because they're good at cutting the number of podium contenders down significantly (as figures and then the necessity for lots of triples used to do).

What I'd like to see is crackdown on more than just underrotation (twofoot and fall on the jump by all means, just don't underrotate, sheesh)
First, start calling flutzes as flips and lips as lutzes (a skater who does both won't have any problems). Really crack down on crappy spins and get a clue about what good footwork is.

I'll be happy to never a see another quad until the guys (and gals) get their spins, footwork and basic jumping technique in order so that a fast well-centered spin is the rule rather than the exception and a skater would rather leave out the flutz (or lip) to stay on the good side of the Zayak rule.

 

[gio]

I'll be happy to never a see another quad until the guys (and gals) get their spins, footwork and basic jumping technique in order so that a fast well-centered spin is the rule rather than the exception and a skater would rather leave out the flutz (or lip) to stay on the good side of the Zayak rule.

I really really agree with you!! I would like to see a better technique in jumps, spins and footwork, rather than a quad or a contorsionist spin. Unfortunately travelling and ugly spins, sloppy footwork and improper jumping technique (not just flutzes and lips, but also toe loops and salchows sometimes aren't done properly) are becoming the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'll be happy to never a see another quad until the guys (and gals) get their spins, footwork and basic jumping technique in order so that a fast well-centered spin is the rule rather than the exception and a skater would rather leave out the flutz (or lip) to stay on the good side of the Zayak rule.

Bravissimo!

 

[SeaniBu]

Bravissimo!

Now that is what would lead me to believe the importance of artistic skill is paramount in your mind. Not only that but it would appear that you (and others) are on the exact same page as I am. Or rather I am on the same page as those types of thought present by others 'cause I just can't say it correctly.

Again, FS is not a 'higher, faster, etc-er' sport, it's a technique sport (or should be).

:agree:
I guess I just can't say it that well. That whole post is precisely how I feel too. Excellent!

 

[SeaniBu]

tell me, what is your source for your believing that by definition Sport is pushing one's body beyond its limits?

My little dictionary just says it's an athletic activity.

I meant / mentioned "the pushing" aspect as being in the "nature" of the athlete themselves. At least that was my intention. Again sorry I am wording things that are being misunderstood.

I mean in all due respect - "in sport",
- you need a bigger dictionary

sport (spôrt)
n.
Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
A particular form of this activity.
An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
An active pastime; recreation.
Mockery; jest: He made sport of his own looks.
An object of mockery, jest, or play: treated our interests as sport.
A joking mood or attitude: She made the remark in sport.
One known for the manner of one's acceptance of rules, especially of a game, or of a difficult situation: a poor sport.
Informal. One who accepts rules or difficult situations well.
Informal. A pleasant companion: was a real sport during the trip.
Informal.
A person who lives a jolly, extravagant life.
A gambler at sporting events.
Biology. An organism that shows a marked change from the normal type or parent stock, typically as a result of mutation.

Biologically speaking the sport of FS can mutate - sorry now I am just trying to be funny.

BTW, the little pocket I have says the same and "fun and frolic."

 

[mskater93]

That's a reverse single Axle.

it's a double --- look again