Ladies LP - actual competition

[Particle Man]

yes such a depth that we sit and bemoan that we can't even make two spots for the Olympics much less three.

Do you even know what depth means?

 

[screech]

Judges are paid. And I'm not just talking the bribes under the table.

Unless things have changed, judging is a volunteer position. Judges are given accommodation, transportation and food for the competitions but they do not receive a paycheck. Most judges have full time jobs.

 

[Tonichelle]

Do you even know what depth means?

any idea what sarcasm means?

but fine, let's play your game one more time

yes, we have a lot of women in the US who can do basic moves on the ice. YES, we have a bigger playing field than most of the other countries. I get that.

However, I'm not sure how much bragging we can do with our 'depth' when our ladies are barely in top ten contention at worlds, much less the podium - and I'm not just talking about the two that ARE going. You're so hung up on medals I would think you would get that.

 

[screech]

It's amazing to me to see that with how the scores rank so far this year, Canada has 2 and 4 place! Of course, yes, the event they scored at was in Canada but both also had great skates.

I'm just rooting for Joannie to medal at worlds - there will definitely be more endorsements going her way and popularity if Canada gets back on the ladies podium for the first time since 1988.

 

[Luciana]

I think you are right. Zhang had a lot of troubles with underrotation and other issues that kept her scores low when she first entered the senior circuit. I think the US judges looked at that and sort of gave up on her. As did many people on the Internet boards, might I add. I think the US judges view her as a second-rate skater.

It's unfair. She gets better grades at international. USA judges should change their mind.

 

[PolymerBob]

That would have made things pretty awkward for the USFSA ;-)

Things are pretty awkward now. They are sending their best lady to Junior Worlds. Unless something changes.

 

[Morning Glory]

Oh I'm sorry. I'm not a fan of Kim.
Except her, watching Rochette, Phanueff and Zhang, I've been angry.
You must be Asada's fan.
You want to think everyone who dislike her is Kim's side.

If my post made you upset, I'm sorry.Yes, I am a Mao fan, and also rooting for Yuna.

This is the reason I hate JPN Money on the ice.

I'm really nervous about this post because I've found this kind of rumor on Korean board and the opposite one on Japanese board, so many times.

Anyway, I get off the subject in this thread, so I bring this to the end.

 

[hazey]

I'm not 2-skaters but I agree his or her opinion.
Yeh I can understand the judges looking around the signboard.
And the refree. She is a Japanese.

It seems to me that the simple issue over Mao's PCS is - you don't "get" her interpretation or dislike her choreography, therefore she doesn't "deserve" her PCS. It's the same as people saying that they don't "get" ballet or classical music, therefore neither deserves public funding as much as say, theatre (assuming you can "get" theatre).

I'm not seeing very constructive or informed perspectives on this issue. No one ever mentions what is it exactly - which parts of her program - they don't like or why they think that her program or skating doesn't deserve the marks given. It's all a case of "oh I don't get it so the score must be invalid" or "it's just a series of jumps therefore the PCS is undeserved". How is it "just" a series of jumps? Maybe the jumps accentuated the music very well and made you forget about the transitions between them?

Also, taking judges' evaluation as the default is sound reasoning. It's considered expert opinion. In every field experts can be bought but does that make you question everything your doctor tells you? Or every ingredient a chef puts into his dish? Thus the burden of substantiating your claim of unfair judging lies on you. (And no, nationality of the tech panel is not a fair argument, unless you have proof that the tech panel is corrupt. If not, that's defamation that can get you sued in some countries.)

CoP may not be perfect but I much prefer it over 6.0. Contrary to some opinions here, I think 6.0 skating was a snoozefest with rare moments of brilliance. CoP forces skaters to exhibit their strengths - and weaknesses - with the blades. It's so much more fun to watch, for those of us who "get" it.

Of course, everyone can speculate no end about using PCS as a tool to "hold up" some skaters. But speculation is just that - groundless discussion that doesn't help anything. Better spend the energy on digging for proof? Or banding together to petition some skating body to explain, within the same competition, why skater A gets higher interpretation scores than skater B when X number of people over the internet disagree?

 

[Particle Man]

any idea what sarcasm means?

Yep. And again I ask, do you have any clue what depth means? Since you sarcastically say that we don't have it. I just told you we have no phenom -- that's obvious. But to say we don't have depth is totally asinine, ridiculous and insulting to about 6 or 7 of our top skaters.

 

[Andalusia]

Chances for what. MEDALS?

The only chance the US has for an '10 Olympic medal is, as I said, if Sasha Cohen comes back and defies all odds, managing the greatest comeback in skating history. And then she could get like ... bronze.

Now, if we get 2 spots, Sasha comes back, and then misses the 2nd spot, that would definitely suck. A lot. Otherwise, our girls are going just for the sake of going. None of these girls can steal a medal from Yun-a, Mao, or Joannie/Carolina etc. Wasn't that proven YET AGAIN just now?

I meant their chances to be named onto the Olympic team. 3 spots are better than 2 for all those girls fighting to be on the team. Pretty simple to understand. Capito?

And I understand you're a Sasha bot, but Sasha would be a blimp on the radar if she decides to come back. Bronze at the 2010 Olympics? What utter shite. She'd thank her lucky stars if she could even make it onto the team. So many girls now can do what she was known for, and do those elements better, too. Some, like Rachael and Caroline, appear to have the consistency factor down pat as well.

And no, this isn't the best Caroline can do. She could've gotten her 3-3 ratified, and she's had more success with it than Rachael's had with her's, AFAIK. As for Alissa, what is the best she's capable of exactly? She has no 3-3 and doesn't do the sal. It is rubbish that international judges think either her or Rachael's jumping technique is superior to Caroline's. All have been prone to getting edge and UR calls, etc. Not to mention Rachael's drastic need to improve her artistry/PCS.

 

[gourry]

But these things always happen. I don't even think that it's deliberate. E.g. Duhamel/Buntin had a fall on a 3 Salchow in the pairs free program, and two judges didn't give -3. Joubert fell on the 3 Lutz at Europeans and on judge just gave it a -1.

These mistakes happen with all the skaters, I don't think there is a pattern. Sometimes the judges don't see that someone fell (probably the case with Joubert, he got up so fast!), sometimes they just forget that you need a solo-Triple in your short program and forget to give those -3...

Let's assume it is humanly mistake. If a judge makes that kind of mistake, do they get any kind of warning or penalty or anything? Otherwise, they won't pay much attention no to repeat such a 'mistake'. Because it is rule to give -3, why not allow to make post-correction? It is not like judge's privilege to give that kind of automatic deduction.

 

[Luciana]

I know!! I knew her 3-3 would get downgraded but for a moment, I thought she was gonna beat Mao and got bronze. *sigh*

Aside from the downgraded, she should have beaten Asada.
Zhang should get more PCS and Asada should get lower PCS.

 

[Kissx3]

I think you are right. Zhang had a lot of troubles with underrotation and other issues that kept her scores low when she first entered the senior circuit. I think the US judges looked at that and sort of gave up on her. As did many people on the Internet boards, might I add. I think the US judges view her as a second-rate skater.

I'd agree with that. Her mediocre GP season hurt her a lot in their eyes when it came to nationals, though it's a little drama-queen much to say that they hate her or haven't appreciated her talent, given that she did come in 3rd with .14 less than she scored here.

 

[Tonichelle]

I meant their chances to be named onto the Olympic team. 3 spots are better than 2 for all those girls fighting to be on the team. Pretty simple to understand. Capito?

well shoot, since we're worried about how the girls feel at the end of the day, lets just do away with 3 spots all together and let everybody in! A three day short program event, whoo hoo!

 

[R.D.]

Red Dog, let me ask you this. Do you think part of Alissa's problem might be is that she is focused on the jumps that it makes her artistry and performance suffer?

Hmm...I still think her presentation is the best of the Americans out there. She needs the focus on jump content though, otherwise the presentation means nothing. They should complement each other. Maybe it's speed that she needs, but I can't tell by watching that tiny screen.

Watching Rachel go after her, it was very obvious to me. However, I do think she is more steady on her jumps than in the past, mistakes aside. She really needs to work on hitting all five planned jumps to max out her points. She still scored 104 landing only three of them clean.

Eventually, I think she needs to attempt more jumps though, and THAT might take away from her presentation (and reduce her consistency a bit). Now's obviously not the time to do it though.

I think she could do better PCS wise. She's got all the elements in place, but she needs more energy and drive.

She is on the right track- she's improving. But she's gonna need a lot of luck as we go to LA.

 

[gourry]

I figured Na-Young Kim was going, but again, I would so rather see Hyeon-Jung Kim, especially her LP. And Mini Kim actually beat Na-Young Kim tonight.

Just like Caroline. Those two have many things in common.

 

[Medusa]

And no, this isn't the best Caroline can do. She could've gotten her 3-3 ratified, and she's had more success with it than Rachael's had with her's, AFAIK.

AFAIK?

Zhang hit one 3-3 in the warm-up that looked very very well. I found it very honest and refreshing from her that she said after the short program that she knew right away that the 3-3 will be downgraded. That means these skaters can actually know if they underrotate or not.

 

[krenseby]

It's unfair. She gets better grades at international. USA judges should change their mind.

Well, U.S. judges do react to international success. They even get overexcited about it to the point of holding up the skater in question. That's what happened to Czisny. Watch for Caroline's scores to get a major unexplainable boost at next year's Nationals, provided her international successes continue. Unless they really really dislike her! (BTW I hate the judges for propping up Czisny at Nationals. Alissa's had a good season and doesn't need to get wrapped up in controversy produced by judges overeager to reward her improvement.)

 

[Kimmie Fan]

Interesting but I still think my list is closer to the truth. Laura, Cynthia, and Susanna have never been top contenders internationally, yes they are potentially dangerous but if you take their ISU season average they are significantly lower than in your list.

However, if even one of them passes up both our girls, we have basically no chance at 13.

that is quite possible.

1. I think the both lists show how weak euro skaters are in ladies.
2. Even with Caroline and Rachael, hope for US is quite slim. Lot of things have to break the right way for US to reach 13.

 

[R.D.]

If my post made you upset, I'm sorry.Yes, I am a Mao fan, and also rooting for Yuna.

This is not a first. Many Kwanfans back in the day viewed any folks who didn't really like her as rabid Cohen fans, when in reality only a small fraction of them were. I'm seeing the same thing happen now with Yu Na and Mao fans.