Philip Hersh on Cinquanta pressuring Yu-Na Kim to compete at 4CC

[demarinis5]

What I'm saying is that to the casual Olympic figure skating viewer, what Hersh's article has done is put the notion into people's head that there is a conspiracy by the Japanese sponsors, and that they are bribing ISU officials.

For example, I don't watch any football, basketball or baseball. However, I do read the newspaper and if I read an article by a columnist who writes for a major newspaper suggesting that a team, or sponsor of a team, is bribing an official or referee (or whatever they're called), well, that's what I'm going to be thinking about during that Superbowl or World Series game. And I would be telling my friends, "Oh, I read in the paper that the officials are being bribed". Now, my friends, who haven't seen the article, will also believe this to be true because it was printed in a major newspaper (vs a supermarket tabloid), so even if the "accused" team wins, there will always be a shadow cast over that win.

That's why I have issues with Hersh's article and believe it was very inappropriate. Does anyone understand the point I'm trying to make? I'm not sure I'm making myself very clear

You make your self very clear to me.

 

[starrynight]

What I'm saying is that to the casual Olympic figure skating viewer, what Hersh's article has done is put the notion into people's head that there is a conspiracy by the Japanese sponsors, and that they are bribing ISU officials.

For example, I don't watch any football, basketball or baseball. However, I do read the newspaper and if I read an article by a columnist who writes for a major newspaper suggesting that a team, or sponsor of a team, is bribing an official or referee (or whatever they're called), well, that's what I'm going to be thinking about during that Superbowl or World Series game. And I would be telling my friends, "Oh, I read in the paper that the officials are being bribed". Now, my friends, who haven't seen the article, will also believe this to be true because it was printed in a major newspaper (vs a supermarket tabloid), so even if the "accused" team wins, there will always be a shadow cast over that win.

That's why I have issues with Hersh's article and believe it was very inappropriate. Does anyone understand the point I'm trying to make? I'm not sure I'm making myself very clear

I don't think Hersh was particularly motivated to mislead ppl, since he titled JPN back deals as a conspiracy theory, not as a hard fact. It is readers' job not to grossly read into it, I guess.

 

[starrynight]

Speedy "threatened" the KSU with sanctions - that is a big difference than "threatening" an individual skater. She has said she's not going. It's done.

Mr. C said he would sanction both Kim AND the KSU because of Kim's absence.

 

[chloepoco]

I don't think Hersh was particularly motivated to mislead ppl, since he titled JPN back deals as a conspiracy theory, not as a hard fact. It is readers' job not to grossly read into it, I guess.

That's the whole point I'm trying to make. I don't know what his motive was in writing this article, but just by saying there are conspiracy theories going on, he's put that idea into some people's head, whether or not it is grossly read into or not.

 

[miki88]

What I'm saying is that to the casual Olympic figure skating viewer, what Hersh's article has done is put the notion into people's head that there is a conspiracy by the Japanese sponsors, and that they are bribing ISU officials.

For example, I don't watch any football, basketball or baseball. However, I do read the newspaper and if I read an article by a columnist who writes for a major newspaper suggesting that a team, or sponsor of a team, is bribing an official or referee (or whatever they're called), well, that's what I'm going to be thinking about during that Superbowl or World Series game. And I would be telling my friends, "Oh, I read in the paper that the officials are being bribed". Now, my friends, who haven't seen the article, will also believe this to be true because it was printed in a major newspaper (vs a supermarket tabloid), so even if the "accused" team wins, there will always be a shadow cast over that win.

That's why I have issues with Hersh's article and believe it was very inappropriate. Does anyone understand the point I'm trying to make? I'm not sure I'm making myself very clear

I understand your point and I agree. :agree:

 

[i love to skate]

Mr. C said he would sanction both Kim AND the KSU because of Kim's absence.

Source??

Hersh's article only mentions a sanction against the KSU.

 

[hellcat]

Source??

Hersh's article only mentions a sanction against the KSU.

I'm not sure how this sanction against KSU should be intrepeted.

Does it mean everyone on blade including Figure & Speed Skating get sanctioned?

 

[Mathman]

ISU rankings often do not make sense... probably because it weighs the "B" international competitions (most of them are in Europe) too much...

That is the point of the ISU rankings -- to encourage top skaters to participate in the B events. Also Four Continents.

This was also the reason why the ISU started giving out cash prizes to the skaters highest on the ranking list, to get them to try to acquire as many points as possible by signing up for these minor events.

Now I have a question. What does "sanction" mean, as in Cinquanta is threatening to "sanction" the Korean federation and/or Kim. What exactly are the penalties that he is talking about. Will they assess a fine or double the dues that the Korean federation pays? Will the ISU not assign any Korean judges to major events or put any Korean representatives on ISU committees? Will they not allow any more high profile ISU competitions to be held in Korea?

What exactly can they threaten Kim with? That they will disqualify her from skating in the Olympics or World Championships?

 

[figurejennah]

Uh, figurejennah, I didn't read ilovetoskate's explanation as giving her endorsement or support of Cinquanta--I read it as just the opposite. The "what don't you understand..." is rhetorical. And an explanation/response to somebody else who wasn't seeing what might be motivating Mr. Cinq. I'm assuming English is not your first language, and you completely missed the implicit tone in luv's post. Either that, or I've completely missed ilove's meaning.
.

.............. Excuse me..............????? Now that I am a Yuna fan, are you automatically assuming that I am Korean and trying to give me an english lesson? Wow this is....... absolutely pathetic. I thought my English was at least good enough to pass the bar. LOL

You said iloveskate's post does not show support of Cinquanta's actions, but I disagree. He said, "With the other top skaters not attending because of Nationals, I'd be concerned about this competition too if I was him." Doesn't this sentence sound like he tries to justify Cinquanta's actions? Or are you gonna try to give me more English lessons? Hm?????


Well, Mr. Bejing, you and I have interpreted ilovetoskate's post
completely differently. From my point of view, he always regards Yuna fan's arguments as something completely ridiculous and likes to mock them. There is no one here who doesn't understand that Cinquanta's primary concern is money.

 

[i love to skate]

.............. Excuse me..............????? Now that I am a Yuna fan, are you automatically assuming that I am Korean and trying to give me an english lesson? This is....... pathetic.
Well, Mr. Bejing, you and I have interpreted ilovetoskate's post
completely differently. From my point of view, he always regards Yuna fan's arguments as something completely ridiculous and likes to mock them.

First of all, since you don't seem to like people making assumptions about you, you should do the same and not assume people's genders. I am not a guy. Secondly, read my original post over again. The poster said (I am paraphrasing) "I am trying to understand Speedy's POV and I can't understand it". Therefore, I provided my opinion on his side of things. How exactly is that mocking a Yuna fan?

 

[figurejennah]

First of all, since you don't seem to like people making assumptions about you, you should do the same and not assume people's genders. I am not a guy. Secondly, read my original post over again. The poster said (I am paraphrasing) "I am trying to understand Speedy's POV and I can't understand it". Therefore, I provided my opinion on his side of things. How exactly is that mocking a Yuna fan?

Well, excuse me, but it's common that when we are unsure of someone's gender, we "assume" of it. No one really writes he/she in every sentence. I don't know you personally and neither do you, so I didn't think it would be such a great insult as you pointed out.

Also, when you replied to the guy originally, which he said "I am trying to understand Speedy's .....etc," I think he was being sarcastic, because Cinquanta's motives really cannot be justified. I have said this in my previous post before, but if you have ever traveled to Korea/Japan from Canada (or fly anywhere for over 14 hours), you would understand how tiring it is, and how ridiculous it is of Cinquanta to threaten Yuna to attend 4CC only 25 days before the olympics. We ALL understand that Cinquanta is concerned about money, and of course he would want to promote top skater including home favorite Yuna to attend 4CC. Nevertheless, all we are esaying is that it is not right fot Mr. Cinquanta to threaten a skater to do so, especially when the skater has repeatedly announced not to attend. Also, is it so common and normal that Cinquanta would be so desperate to promote 4CC ???? What is so difficult to understand that?

Lastly, I said you mock yuna fans because you have called them ridiculous before for coming up with these "conspiracies." I have read some of your posts and argued with you before, and I understand that you believe that Yuna has edge problems with her flip, her 3-3 was UR, and her fans are overreacting about everything. Here's what you wrote about North American skaters unable to attend WTT.

"It creates a problem for North American skaters who have to get on another 14 hr plane ride at the end of the season. Many of them didn't want to go last year and turned in poor performances because of exhaustion. "

You certainly don't seem to have any problem understanding why these skaters had a difficulty attending WTT and also gave poor performances. So, what's so hard to understand how ridiculous Cinquanta is being right now during the olympics season?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

For what it's worth, I was the poster i love to skate was responding to, and I didn't have much issue with her tone. I disagree with the argument made, and I genuinely think Cinquata is going about this all wrongly, but I don't think that my fellow Canadian went out of bounds.

 

[Phoenix347]

That is the point of the ISU rankings -- to encourage top skaters to participate in the B events. Also Four Continents.

This was also the reason why the ISU started giving out cash prizes to the skaters highest on the ranking list, to get them to try to acquire as many points as possible by signing up for these minor events.

Now I have a question. What does "sanction" mean, as in Cinquanta is threatening to "sanction" the Korean federation and/or Kim. What exactly are the penalties that he is talking about. Will they assess a fine or double the dues that the Korean federation pays? Will the ISU not assign any Korean judges to major events or put any Korean representatives on ISU committees? Will they not allow any more high profile ISU competitions to be held in Korea?

What exactly can they threaten Kim with? That they will disqualify her from skating in the Olympics or World Championships?

Ah, yes... come to the "B" comps or your ranking will suffer. All it did was to force Carolina Kostner (she was ISU #1 at the time) to skate after Yuna at 2009 TEB SP and bomb to 7th place.

If you read the article, Cinquanta said he couldn't prevent Yuna from attending Olympics but didn't say anything about the worlds, which is ran by ISU therefore his playground. I think the threat is nebulous... it looks like he's trying to drive a bit of a wedge between Yuna and KSU. It's like him telling KSU, "If you don't convince Yuna to skate at 4CC then you will pay for it in future ISU competitions." Whether this is sanctions or reduced number of participants in future worldss, who knows. He also seem to be threatening implicitly. He says one thing but he does another thing:

He claims he can't place any sanctions on Yuna or KSU:

Cinquanta said he did not threaten the South Koreans with a sanction if they did not enter Kim for Four Continents and that he could not either force them to do it or ban her from the Olympics if she does not.

But earlier in the article:

Cinquanta said his letter to the Korean federation included a reference to ISU rule 136 (6), which allows sanctions against national federations whose skaters do not participate in those ISU events that have TV or commercial contracts.

He talking double. He's says he can't sanction them in one sentence yet he slips in a reference saying that he can. Pretty devious, isn't it?

Also:

Not to mention currying favor with Cinquanta, also an IOC member, given that Pyeongchang, South Korea is bidding for the 2018 Winter Olympics after narrow defeats in the voting for 2010 and 2014.

Just knowing that he has influence over the bid for 2018 Winter Olympics gives him extra ammo in his pocket.

However, at this point, since Yuna's team has not entered her name to 4CC, isn't this a moot point now?

All I know is that if the judging seem suspicious enough at Vancouver (which ever way it might be) then we could have SLC like situation again where the public will think, ah, it all fixed anyway.

I only hope for fair and consistent judging for ALL skaters. Of course PCS is another matter but at least be fair and consistent with the TES.

 

[miki88]

I don't think Cinquanta is so stupid enough to allow the judging to be fixed due to the past scandal, because that will totally jeopardize the future of figure skating, which means loss of a lot of money. But maybe he can influence people to not give the 2018 Olympic bid to Korea.

 

[i love to skate]

Well, excuse me, but it's common that when we are unsure of someone's gender, we "assume" of it. No one really writes he/she in every sentence. I don't know you personally and neither do you, so I didn't think it would be such a great insult as you pointed out.

I wasn't saying it was an insult - I was just pointing out it was an assumption - and you didn't like assuptions made against you. When discussing a person or quote on here a gender neutral term I use is; "the poster" "they", etc.

Also, when you replied to the guy originally, which he said "I am trying to understand Speedy's .....etc," I think he was being sarcastic, because Cinquanta's motives really cannot be justified. I have said this in my previous post before, but if you have ever traveled to Korea/Japan from Canada (or fly anywhere for over 14 hours), you would understand how tiring it is, and how ridiculous it is of Cinquanta to threaten Yuna to attend 4CC only 25 days before the olympics. We ALL understand that Cinquanta is concerned about money, and of course he would want to promote top skater including home favorite Yuna to attend 4CC. Nevertheless, all we are esaying is that it is not right fot Mr. Cinquanta to threaten a skater to do so, especially when the skater has repeatedly announced not to attend. Also, is it so common and normal that Cinquanta would be so desperate to promote 4CC ???? What is so difficult to understand that?

Here's what you wrote about North American skaters unable to attend WTT.

"It creates a problem for North American skaters who have to get on another 14 hr plane ride at the end of the season. Many of them didn't want to go last year and turned in poor performances because of exhaustion. "

Read the bolded parts. I have said so in the past that it is extremely tiring to fly to Asia, so of course I can understand that.

You seem to think that I am in agreement with Speedy and that Kim should go to 4CC. I have never said that. I have previously said in the past that I understand why she would not want to go. Example of this was a post in the YuNa News Thread:

Cinquinta is well within his right to send a letter to the KSU and threaten sanctions - it is in the ISU rule book. The reason this rule exists is so skaters don't just drop out of competitions because "they feel like it". The top Canadian and American skaters can't go because of their Nationals but Yuna doesn't have anything that is preventing her from going. That being said, it is understandable why she wouldn't go and like Speedy said he can't force her. Also, he doesn't personally pick the tech specialists.

Again, read the bolded part.

For what it's worth, I was the poster i love to skate was responding to, and I didn't have much issue with her tone. I disagree with the argument made, and I genuinely think Cinquata is going about this all wrongly, but I don't think that my fellow Canadian went out of bounds.

Thanks, ImaginaryPogue

ETA:

He talking double. He's says he can't sanction them in one sentence yet he slips in a reference saying that he can. Pretty devious, isn't it?

I think he is talking about the Olympics. He has no control over the Olympics, but come Worlds, etc...the ISU can follow through with a sanction.

 

[figurejennah]

I wasn't saying it was an insult - I was just pointing out it was an assumption - and you didn't like assuptions made against you. When discussing a person or quote on here a gender neutral term I use is; "the poster" "they", etc.

Grammatically, I should have used "he/she" every time I referred to you, but I was just speaking casually. That's all. And I didn't like the assumption about me because he/she was trying to give me English lessons based on that assumption.

"It creates a problem for North American skaters who have to get on another 14 hr plane ride at the end of the season. Many of them didn't want to go last year and turned in poor performances because of exhaustion. "

Read the bolded parts. I have said so in the past that it is extremely tiring to fly to Asia, so of course I can understand that.
You seem to think that I am in agreement with Speedy and that Kim should go to 4CC. I have never said that. I have previously said in the past that I understand why she would not want to go. Example of this was a post in the YuNa News Thread:]

I don't think that you thought that Yuna should go, however, it sounded like you believed that Cinquanta's actions were justified, because you repeatedly questioned why it was so difficult for Yuna fans to logically understand his actions. I emphasized the difficulty of the traveling part for that purpose.

You said, "Cinquinta is well within his right to send a letter to the KSU and threaten sanctions - it is in the ISU rule book. The reason this rule exists is so skaters don't just drop out of competitions because "they feel like it". The top Canadian and American skaters can't go because of their Nationals but Yuna doesn't have anything that is preventing her from going."

To me, that sounded like you completely agreed with Cinquanta's actions although in the next sentence, you said you understand why Yuna wouldn't want to go.

 

[i love to skate]

I don't think that you thought that Yuna should go, however, it sounded like you believed what Cinquanta was doing was justified, because you repeatedly questioned why it was so difficult for Yuna fans to logically understand his actions.

To me, that sounded like you completely agreed with Cinquanta's actions.

Speedy is justified in doing this. As a fan, it isn't the best thing to see and you don't have to agree with it, but it is in the ISU rule book. He is following the rule exactly as it is stated. When you read the rule, it really isn't that hard to understand his actions.

Rule 136 part 6

6. Members with Skaters who place within the first ten places at any ISU Championships and who continue in the following season to participate in Skating competitions and/or exhibitions as eligible Skaters, shall have the obligation, when entering or authorizing the participation of such Skaters in Skating competitions and/or exhibitions, to give first priority to participation of such Skaters in those ISU Events which are the subject of ISU television and commercial contracts as notified to Members. Members who fail to comply with the above obligation, and Skaters who refuse to participate in such ISU Events, without medical or other justified reasons, shall be subject to sanctions under the relevant rules.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-192306-209529-141863-0-file,00.pdf

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

My issues with Cinquata's actions simply reside in the fact that I think he's pursuing his goals (to raise the profile of figure skating) incorrectly. The fact that he's doing it in an eggheaded manner simply seems to be his way (see the "skating's too tough to create stars" comment).

 

[bigsisjiejie]

.............. Excuse me..............????? Now that I am a Yuna fan, are you automatically assuming that I am Korean and trying to give me an english lesson? Wow this is....... absolutely pathetic. I thought my English was at least good enough to pass the bar. LOL

You said iloveskate's post does not show support of Cinquanta's actions, but I disagree. He said, "With the other top skaters not attending because of Nationals, I'd be concerned about this competition too if I was him." Doesn't this sentence sound like he tries to justify Cinquanta's actions? Or are you gonna try to give me more English lessons? Hm?????


Well, Mr. Bejing, you and I have interpreted ilovetoskate's post
completely differently. From my point of view, he always regards Yuna fan's arguments as something completely ridiculous and likes to mock them. There is no one here who doesn't understand that Cinquanta's primary concern is money.

1) I did not assume that just because you are a Yuna fan that you are Korean. It just seemed to me you had a reading comprehension problem, regardless of where you are from. (I still think this.)

2) Subsequent postings by iloveskate have shown my interpretation as correct, she was not supporting Mr. C merely by giving her assessment of his POV.

3) I'm not a Mr. Assumptions, assumptions. Very dangerous.

4) Yes. There is. Me. I strongly believe in this 4CC situation, Cinquanta's primary concern is power--his personal power and power of the office of ISU chief over skaters and federations.

 

[figurejennah]

Speedy is justified in doing this. As a fan, it isn't the best thing to see and you don't have to agree with it, but it is in the ISU rule book. He is following the rule exactly as it is stated. When you read the rule, it really isn't that hard to understand his actions.

Rule 136 part 6

6. Members with Skaters who place within the first ten places at any ISU Championships and who continue in the following season to participate in Skating competitions and/or exhibitions as eligible Skaters, shall have the obligation, when entering or authorizing the participation of such Skaters in Skating competitions and/or exhibitions, to give first priority to participation of such Skaters in those ISU Events which are the subject of ISU television and commercial contracts as notified to Members. Members who fail to comply with the above obligation, and Skaters who refuse to participate in such ISU Events, without medical or other justified reasons, shall be subject to sanctions under the relevant rules.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-192306-209529-141863-0-file,00.pdf

You see, here's where you and I disagree. The point is that he "threatened" to sanction Yuna kim only, and that's why it's controversial. He probably sent out letters to other skaters, too, but there are no reports about other skaters being threatened to be sanctioned.
well..... It appears and you and I disagree on almost every single thing, so seriously, what's the point in arguing, right?