Proposals to ISU Congress 2018-2019 Season

[Andrea82]

Okay, thanks. That makes a bit of sense.

I think it would work like:


Kostner is top 10 at Worlds. No other Italian girl entered. Italy qualified for 2 spots on the previous method

With the new one, 1 spot would be qualified. Italy would send a girl to Nebelhorn. If said girl, whoever she is, finishes in top 6 at Nebelhorn, Italy confirms the second spot. Then Italy can send to Olympics Leccardi even if it was Russo who skated at Nebelhorn.

 

[Andrea82]

Lakernik: "it's not against the rules, just a bit strange"

 

[chopinskate]

If the ISU thinks that's supposed to be good music, no wonder the artistic aspect is going down the drain.

It's straight out of a C-grade sci-fi/thriller.

 

[mau]

Weren’t the spots supposed to be for the country and not for a specific athlete? E.g if Javier wins two spots, Spain will need to send another skater to Nebelhorn to secure the 2nd spot?

 

[lavenderblossom]

This intermission music is nice.

 

[Danny T]

The new qualifying rule for the Olympics (not Worlds) is proposal 211 in the document I attached on the first page of thread. Page 89 if you want the full text.

In layman terms according to my understanding using Men's example at Helsinki: Spain has two skaters, Fernandez and Raya. Fernandez placed 4th, Raya didn't qualify for the Free Skate. By old rules, Spain automatically gets two spots for PC, as long as they meet minimum TES. By new rules, only Fernandez is guaranteed a spot for PC. Spain has maximum two spots, but one Spanish skater (Raya or Montoya) has to go to Nebelhorn to qualify for the Olys. If he qualifies, he goes to PC. If he doesn't, that opens up a spot for the 7th place skater at Nebelhorn to qualify for PC (which is usually small fed skaters, as Bianchetti argues) ETA: underlined is incorrect. The opened-up spot goes to the next competitor in line at Worlds to fulfill 24 spots, Nebelhorn still qualifies only top 6.

BUT, hypothetically, let's say Olympics was in 2017 and Javi was the only Spanish skater in Boston. He won, which by old rules guaranteed Spain three spots for Olys that meet TES minimum. However, by new rules, Spain can only send one skater to Nebelhorn for qualification. In essence, one single-entry skater cannot earn three spots for the fed.

 

[chopinskate]

This intermission music is nice.

:roll5:

ETA: It's growing on me. Maybe it's Stockholm Syndrome. It could be used in a sci-fi game.

 

[Andrea82]

The new qualifying rule for the Olympics (not Worlds) is proposal 211 in the document I attached on the first page of thread. Page 89 if you want the full text.

In layman terms according to my understanding using Men's example at Helsinki: Spain has two skaters, Fernandez and Raya. Fernandez placed 4th, Raya didn't qualify for the Free Skate. By old rules, Spain automatically gets two spots for PC, as long as they meet minimum TES. By new rules, only Fernandez is guaranteed a spot for PC. Spain has maximum two spots, but one Spanish skater (Raya or Montoya) has to go to Nebelhorn to qualify for the Olys. If he qualifies, he goes to PC. If he doesn't, that opens up a spot for the 7th place skater at Nebelhorn to qualify for PC (which is usually small fed skaters, as Bianchetti argues)

.

I think that after Worlds they assign what would have been the "Spanish second spot" to the next in line country at Worlds (Belgium in 2017).
Then Montoya/Raya would go to Nebelhorn. Top 6 at Nebelhorn would go to Olympics. Basically one country that in previous system would have gone to Nebelhorn, now gets the spot immediately at Worlds. And Montoya/Raya go to Nebelhorn instead.
I think they keep 24 spots assigned at Worlds rule.

 

[Henni147]

BUT, hypothetically, let's say Olympics was in 2017 and Javi was the only Spanish skater in Boston. He won, which by old rules guaranteed Spain three spots for Olys that meet TES minimum. However, by new rules, Spain can only send one skater to Nebelhorn for qualification. In essence, one single-entry skater cannot earn three spots for the fed.

#Sidenote: Javi didn't compete in Milan and the chance is pretty high that he's going to retire after Euros next year.
ISU will be devastated that the entire discussion right now will be pointless

 

[Danny T]

I think that after Worlds they assign what would have been the "Spanish second spot" to the next in line country at Worlds (Belgium in 2017).
Then Montoya/Raya would go to Nebelhorn. Top 6 at Nebelhorn would go to Olympics. Basically one country that in previous system would have gone to Nebelhorn, now gets the spot immediately at Worlds. And Montoya/Raya go to Nebelhorn instead.
I think they keep 24 spots assigned at Worlds rule.

Ohh you're right, I misunderstood.

 

[cohen-esque]

The new qualifying rule for the Olympics (not Worlds) is proposal 211 in the document I attached on the first page of thread. Page 89 if you want the full text.

In layman terms according to my understanding using Men's example at Helsinki: Spain has two skaters, Fernandez and Raya. Fernandez placed 4th, Raya didn't qualify for the Free Skate. By old rules, Spain automatically gets two spots for PC, as long as they meet minimum TES. By new rules, only Fernandez is guaranteed a spot for PC. Spain has maximum two spots, but one Spanish skater (Raya or Montoya) has to go to Nebelhorn to qualify for the Olys. If he qualifies, he goes to PC. If he doesn't, that opens up a spot for the 7th place skater at Nebelhorn to qualify for PC (which is usually small fed skaters, as Bianchetti argues)

BUT, hypothetically, let's say Olympics was in 2017 and Javi was the only Spanish skater in Boston. He won, which by old rules guaranteed Spain three spots for Olys that meet TES minimum. However, by new rules, Spain can only send one skater to Nebelhorn for qualification. In essence, one single-entry skater cannot earn three spots for the fed.

I echo the earlier disagreement. What if Skater #2 was a first season senior who has never had the chance to go to Worlds, and whose Fed didn't assign them to Nebelhorn? This seems like a massive oversight.

In this example, what if that new senior was assigned to the second spot instead of Raya? Could they go? If Raya or Montoya were the ones at Nebelhorn, do they have to use the spot, or is it just compulsory for Spain to qualify another spot at Nebelhorn (via any skater) in order to get a spot (which can then be filled by any skater)? (I think currently the skaters who qualifies the Olys spot at Nebelhorn skater don't have to be the skaters who fill that spot.)

And how specific is it? Is it only to come into play in the event that there was one skater who made the FS? If there are two skaters and both make the FS are the two spots automatic? Three spots? If Raya and Fernandez both made the FS, would it have to be Raya amd Fernandez who go?

Does it affect any skater who's never been to the FS at Worlds? Would Polina Edmonds or Alina Zagitova even have been able to go to the Olympics under this rule?

 

[Henni147]

That way we can also recognize the difficulty within the combo's too. Since, theoretically, a 3T-4Lz is more difficult than a 4Lz-3t. It looks overwhelming in terms of math, but it's not like the tech panel do their maths manually.

Whoah :eeking: 3T+4Lz with change of rotation direction! If any skater in the world can nail THAT combo, well, that deserves +10GOE

 

[Harriet]

I echo the earlier disagreement. What if Skater #2 was a first season senior who has never had the chance to go to Worlds, and whose Fed didn't assign them to Nebelhorn? This seems like a massive oversight.

I don't think so? As I understand it, the skater at Nebelhorn, as now, only qualifies an Olympic place for their federation. If the federation has another skater who later gets the TES minimums for the Olympics and looks like a better prospect, or can step in if the Nebelhorn skater is injured, they can send that skater instead.

 

[Andrea82]

The full text

Twenty-four (24) entries for Ladies and Men, sixteen (16) entries for Pairs and nineteen (19) entries for Ice Dance will be determined according to the classification outlined in paragraph 2 above. ISU Members who have earned the necessary points according to Rule 378, paragraph 2b) and c) will have the right for two (2) or three (3) entries if, in addition, they had two (2), respectively three (3) Competitors qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance in the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. . The remaining entries under this paragraph 3 will be attributed to the ISU Members with the best placed and qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance Skaters at the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG.
4. The remaining open entries available will be filled by ISU Members in order of their placements at a Senior International Competition designated by the ISU as qualifying event and conducted in the autumn of the calendar year immediately preceding the Olympic Winter Games. The open entries are available only to:
a) ISU Members which have not previously earned an entry, for only one entry per such ISU Member.
b) ISU Members which have earned the necessary points for two (2) or three (3) entries but did not have two (2) respectively three (3) skaters qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the World Senior Championships immediately preceding the OWG. Such ISU Members are entitled to enter one skater in the qualifying event who, however, cannot be a skater that had qualified for the Free Skating/Free Dance at the World Senior
Championships immediately preceding the OWG.


I think in Helsinki they would have not been able to assign 24 spots in Ladies

The following spots couldn't be assigned at Helsinki because the second (third in Canada's case) skater were not present/qualified for FS

Canada #3
Italy #2
Kazakhstan #2
South Korea #2


But only Armenia and Australia qualified for FS and didn't get any Olympic spot at Helsinki.
So they would have assigned only 22 spots

 

[cohen-esque]

I don't think so? As I understand it, the skater at Nebelhorn, as now, only qualifies an Olympic place for their federation. If the federation has another skater who later gets the TES minimums for the Olympics and looks like a better prospect, or can step in if the Nebelhorn skater is injured, they can send that skater instead.

Well, that would be perfectly sensible. Similarly to LRK, I had read this summary as implying that the skater who goes needs to have previously made the FS at *a* previous Worlds, which seemed to have been reinforced by the example above, but now that I’ve spun through my objections your understanding makes sense, and this can be read differently.

If I understand correctly, now the Technical Committee just proposed a new rule on allocating spots at Olympics

The proposal sounds like if for ex Spain gets 2 spots because of Fernandez.....number 2 needs to have qualified for FS at previous Worlds...otherwise, skater 2 needs to go to Qualifying competition along with the others.

Edit: Yep^^. Much clearer.

 

[Andrea82]

They are back

Communication for the dress code for tonight's dinner....

 

[Danny T]

I echo the earlier disagreement. What if Skater #2 was a first season senior who has never had the chance to go to Worlds, and whose Fed didn't assign them to Nebelhorn? This seems like a massive oversight.

In this example, what if that new senior was assigned to the second spot instead of Raya? Could they go? If Raya or Montoya were the ones at Nebelhorn, do they have to use the spot, or is it just compulsory for Spain to qualify another spot at Nebelhorn (via any skater) in order to get a spot (which can then be filled by any skater)? (I think currently the skaters who qualifies the Olys spot at Nebelhorn skater don't have to be the skaters who fill that spot.)

And how specific is it? Is it only to come into play in the event that there was one skater who made the FS? If there are two skaters and both make the FS are the two spots automatic? Three spots? If Raya and Fernandez both made the FS, would it have to be Raya amd Fernandez who go?

Does it affect any skater who's never been to the FS at Worlds? Would Polina Edmonds or Alina Zagitova even have been able to go to the Olympics under this rule?

The spot still belongs to the federation, not the specific skaters AFAIK. If Raya places within top 6 at Nebelhorn, Spain gets that second spot. Then the Spanish fed gets full say which two skaters they send to PC (they don't even have to send Fernandez, it's not the ISU problem now)

The criteria for 2 spots and 3 spots are still the same, aka top 2's places summed up to 28 and 13 respectively. If Raya had made the FS in Helsinki, Spain gets two spots but one is not necessarily filled by Raya. Montoya could still go.

I don't remember Edmunds' situation, but Zagitova can still go. All of Medvedeva, Sotskova and Pogorilaya qualified for the free skate, so no problem.

ETA: Edmunds (or another US ladies's skaters except Gold and Wagner) would need to go to Nebelhorn to secure the third spot for the U.S. If not, the U.S could still send Edmunds to Sochi with Gold, but then Wagner would've stayed home (seeing as Edmunds was the national silver medallist)

 

[Andrea82]

Well, that would be perfectly sensible. Similarly to LRK, I had read this summary as implying that the skater who goes needs to have previously made the FS at *a* previous Worlds, which seemed to have been reinforced by the example above, but now that I’ve spun through my objections your understanding makes sense, and this can be read differently.

I meant "skater" in general rather than a specific skater. Also because in many cases, there wouldn't be a specific skater at Worlds as it is often the case of a country qualifying more spots with just 1 entry at Worlds.

That's why I used "skater" rather than Montoya/Raya names.
But yes, I now get why it could have been read in another way

 

[cohen-esque]

^Well, to be fair, your posts might have been perfectly clear to me if I wasn’t in the midst of a 2AM brain fog.

 

[karne]

They are back

Communication for the dress code for tonight's dinner....

Now we are discussing about how many years a TC/TS/official must be active to retain their ISU status. Change is made to make it 4 years including at least 1 ISU event.

EDIT: And now we have an urgent proposal clarifying that CS events count for "activity".