Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry? | Page 17 | Golden Skate

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

Should quads per program be limited to balance artistry?

  • Yes

    Votes: 73 43.2%
  • No

    Votes: 96 56.8%

  • Total voters
    169
Autumn Classic was set up in a rink with no seats but benches. The organizers cannot control people and they usually do not have to. I have been to many competitions there because that's often where they hold CQÉ. Never, has there been a problem unless it was went Hanyu fans were misbehaving. And yes, as I said, some of his fans were nice too... but it wasn't the majority.... and yes, I have told that story before because it's extremely upsetting when people hold seats for the entire competition to watch ONE skater and then go.. but leave their blankets on the benches and block the way for everyone else. So no, I am not going to apologize for telling that frustrating story once more.
And Kelowna, omg, Kelowna. Not only they scream the entire time they could see a sliver of him, they just wouldn't stop even after he was gone. Still remember poor Rizzo standing there, not even being able to warm up before his skate. Say what you want, but it just wasn't right. Yeah, really, good riddance of this entire flying circus.
 
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It seems people should decide what happened and what they complain about. Were Yuzuru fans going out when other skaters skated leaving their seats empty, or they were rooting too loud for some tastes throughout the whole competition, lol? Or did they go out and scream loud from corridors? Taking into account that Yuzu left competitions 4 years ago and his fans followed the suit, leaving lost of empty seats and somewhat emptier bank accounts behind, this really feels like bashing for the sake of bashing and looking for any excuse to take a dig. And BTW these are Japanese fans we're talking about, the best in the world and lovingly embracing everyone, remember? :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
And what does it say about the need to limit the number of quads or not which is supposedly the topic of this thread ? :scratch2:
Yes, circus indeed.
 
I guess you might also find it a bit less disturbing if all these crowds arrived there for Patrick Chan. :nod:
No. I have been to competitions to see Patrick like many others have. And this never happened. I have attended MANY skating competitions. The only two time this happened, are those two competitions when some of Yuzuru's fans misbehave. People didn't do this for Shoma nor Kaori nor Malinin nor Osmond nor Virtue and Moir nor R/R. etc. and they didn't do it either for Jason Brown when I was in attendance.
I reiterate, I saw the same thing happening for Jason, hardly anyone complained, or even noticed.
For me, they were either breaking the rules or not. If they were ok with the rules, you may not like it but they were doing nothing wrong. If they were not ok with the rules, you have the right to complain to organizers to restore the order. Otherwise, it is just complaining some skaters are way more popular with the public than some others. This may be not flattering to these others but well, people pay for tickets to watch what they want to watch and no one can demand anything else of them unless it is written in the rules that they are not allowed to leave their seats except for breaks. There are events which just have it written in the rules, FS events are not among them, AFAIK.
It's not about rules it's about etiquette. I guess that doesn't matter to some people but it does to others.

Once more, I am out of here. I agree that this thread has drifted many times and in many directions but to me this part of the drift is over. I tried to get back on topic mentioning that at one event I attended, it was the first quad loop and Seimei was indeed a greatly balanced program but others had more to say about fans behaviour. No need to reply to my posts as obviously, we seem to be polar opposites. I am fine to agree to disagree with you on pretty much everything if it can lighten up some threads. :wave:
 
Thank you for these words!
But that's right. Two things can be true at one time.
You can focus on today and still honour the sport's past greats, there is no contradiction in that, it is not really one or the other.
Like they do in tennis which I love to watch.
I appreciate that, but honestly don't think what I wrote is, or should be, groundbreaking.

Don't all sports honor their past champions, especially the greats? I'm an an-again-off-again tennis fan, and I certainly recall with great fondness the exploits of Connors, McEnroe (sometimes), Borg... but my fandom of those greats doesn't mean I don't appreciate current players.

This should not be an either/or situation. I can, and do, like Yuzu, Javier, Nathan.... and I also like Ilia and Yuma. Every single one of these skaters brought/brings something interesting to the sport. Liking one of them doesn't mean I have to dismiss the others. I won't do that.
 
I'm not sure how judges can look at the same element and have such a disparity of GOE. Now, of course it doesn't happen all the time, but if you really look at protocols as I tend to do, sometimes it paints a very odd picture. I'm not sure how a judge can look at an element and score it +3 and the judge right beside will score it -1.

This is fine to me.

Sometimes - many times - a judge simply doesn't notice something that happened with the element that another might have.

Judges care about different things and value things differently.
 
This is fine to me.

Sometimes - many times - a judge simply doesn't notice something that happened with the element that another might have.

Judges care about different things and value things differently.
That's fine if we're talking about one judge thinking "That's a textbook example of that jump. One of the very best I've ever seen. +5." and another thinking "Excellent jump. Could have used a better lead-in transition and I wish he had pointed his toe on the runout. +3". That seems reasonable and has a basis for argument.

A judge looking at a jump and going "Excellent. +3" and another saying "Deficient. -1" Those types of disparities are harder to explain, particularly if the pattern of the marks does not seem to indicate that the judge has a vastly different view than the others overall.

But your comment also indicates my opinions about standards. What a judge personally values should be less important than the extent to which the skater meets the standards set for judging the element.

Say a brunette skater performs her program to "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes." Now, I might personally think that's a poor choice of music, for that skater but "Hair color matches the music" is not a judging standard, and I would be in the wrong to mark her down because of it.
 
A judge looking at a jump and going "Excellent. +3" and another saying "Deficient. -1" Those types of disparities are harder to explain, particularly if the pattern of the marks does not seem to indicate that the judge has a vastly different view than the others overall.

I've thought this about UR jumps before. Some judges might give a -1 GOE if they feel to penalise it further. OTOH, a different judge may think "it's already got a penalty. I'll evaluate the rest of the qualities instead - it had transitions, musicality, good air position, and decent flow". There's your +3.

But your comment also indicates my opinions about standards. What a judge personally values should be less important than the extent to which the skater meets the standards set for judging the element.

There is an inherent subjectivity to skating, like what constitutes enhancement of the music. Even transitions have some bit of subjectivity to them - the quickness with which a "simple" transition is done might make it more difficult than a traditionally difficult transition - but a judge might still evaluate those things differently from me.

"This transition was simple but done to the music. This other one was not even if "more difficult". The first one shows a more difficult rhythm leading into the jump directly."

"This simple transition showed better edging and speed, than this very difficult sequences of turns."
 
I've thought this about UR jumps before. Some judges might give a -1 GOE if they feel to penalise it further. OTOH, a different judge may think "it's already got a penalty. I'll evaluate the rest of the qualities instead - it had transitions, musicality, good air position, and decent flow". There's your +3.
I see your point of view, and I've also wondered that myself. And that's where I think stronger standards are necessary. And they could be "Judge the jump exactly as you see it. Period. Any reductions the tech panel may decide are their concern, not yours." Or they could be "Take into account other reductions the skater will inherit on the protocol and adjust your scoring to fit what you think the jump is worth." But one of the other, please. Not judge A deciding to do things one way, and Judge B doing something completely different.

Personally, I prefer the first scenario I describe above, but that's just my preference.
 
I see your point of view, and I've also wondered that myself. And that's where I think stronger standards are necessary. And they could be "Judge the jump exactly as you see it. Period. Any reductions the tech panel may decide are their concern, not yours." Or they could be "Take into account other reductions the skater will inherit on the protocol and adjust your scoring to fit what you think the jump is worth." But one of the other, please. Not judge A deciding to do things one way, and Judge B doing something completely different.
Just to give further examples...

Say someone did a 3Lz+3Lo. Very difficult. They under-rotate the +3Lo.

Someone goes "-1: it's a UR combo".

Someone else goes - "it's so hard, and the 3Lz was fully rotated. Also, everything else was fine. Plus, the combo is underrated in the current system. +3, because it's already getting scaled down by the penalty".

This is not at all to disagree with you, but rather to provide context. I'd fully support the second judge in this scenario, and frown at the first one, because IMO blindly following guidelines is never good.
 
Talking about Sochi, these were not specifically Plushenko fans, these were Russsian skating fans who just wanted Russia to win. They were not screaming Plushy Plushy but Russia Russia, and just left when no Russian was left to compete so they lost interest.
Yuzuru when asked about it then said that he was perfectly alright with them leaving, better this than trying to disturb other skaters when yelling during their skate. If skaters don't mind, why would fans make a fuss?
But otherwise I just think all this distinction between fans of a skater and of skating is meaningless and just made up to criticize fans of most popular skaters frowned upon by fans of their rivals. In most sports people are fans of one particular club, or of their national team, or of a selected athlete, and everyone thinks it perfectly alright and nothing else is expected. Never heard of FC Barcelona fan considered not a fan of soccer because they did not root for Real Madrid, or a Rafa Nadal fan accused of not being a fan of tennis because they rooted for Rafa only, and did not care for Novak. Actually it is pretty common in tennis, that people buy whole day tickets, cause these are on sale, and turn up only at night for the last match of the day when the greatest stars play. Very common indeed.
My general feeling is just FS did not really have such a huge star for some time and people forgot what it is like when an athlete is really popular with the general public.
Yeah, that is true. The Russian Olympic 'fans' were really just about Russia winning too and were horrible to non-Russian athletes/rivals to Russia winning. They cheered for the Germans when they fell. They got excited when they thought Yu Na was erring on her lutz.

They disruptive in other sports too ... I remember the curler Eve Muirhead threw amazing shade, "LOL had to chuckle at those [Russian crowd member] who hollered when we deliberately made a blank, thinking that we messed up... not exactly the most knowledgeable curling fans." Sochi and Rio fans were THE worst.
 
I don't know. I for one cannot get too righteously indignant at unruly sports fans. Some are there just for the excitement of being at the Olympics, to get drunk with their friends, to cheer raucously for the home team (what sport is it that we are watching now? Curling? What the heck is curling?.")

At least they are not stampeding and trampling folks like at a football game.
 
Chen's Olympic FS was pretty egregiously underscored (I mean, 8.00's?!).
:rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye:

Nathan Chen's 2018 performance was pedestrian and massively OVERscored on PCS. 87 for a program with almost no expression, no real connective theme, very little musical interpretation, lacking body extension. Just a quad hunt with a few little bits of choreo thrown in, which he didn't put much effort into executing.

More like, the vast majority of the time Plushenko didn't make use of it because he never had any competitors other than Yagudin to technically push him so he didn't need to develop the PCS side. The only time he only really showed his all around skater potential was at 2012 Europeans when he was "forced" to do levels and add transitions and whatnot. But come Sochi his program choreo and skating skills regressed again

Plushenko's best artistic program was 2004, when Yagudin was no longer competing. Plushenko was more focused on pushing the tech when Yagudin was around, doing the first 3Axel-half loop-3Flip ever and trying the Quad-Triple+Triple Loop (and forcing Yagudin to do a Quad-Triple-2Loop combo, something that has sadly become lost with IJS scoring, since difficult combos like that are worth nothing).

Plushenko was the first person to get level 4 on footwork, back when the rules actually cared about being able to display fast footwork and combining steps and turns together. The way footwork should be. Those are skating skills, as is his edge security.

His 2014 Sochi LP was one of the best performances of the competition. There was actual attention paid to the build of the music, the usage of the body to create expressive moments, facial expression and connection with the audience. The way he was able to utilize his body movement showed FAR more sophistication and ability as a dancer than what Chen was doing, or really what Chen has ever done. Look at little details like the arm position on Plushenko's 3Lutz landing, how open and confident it is, and the flick of the wrists afterward. People aren't presenting jump landings anymore like they should be. Look at Nathan Chen's 2018 performance for example - his head is down after literally every jump landing and the arms are loose, with no tension and no refinement of body line. He never sells the landings, there's no sense of "I just did something great" being projected, and no sense of the jumps being part of the performance.
 
I don't know. I for one cannot get too righteously indignant at unruly sports fans.
One long-term heckler at the Sydney Cricket Ground (he was part of the audience on the general admissions area known as the Hill) was so famous he ended up with his own statue when stands replaced the grass...

But unruly or other fans, especially those from prior years and decades, do seem to be an awfully long way from the original question of quads vs artistry and my (and I think other folks') feeling of 'why is it relentlessly heading for the point where we can't have both???' And yes, I know Yuma - maybe the nearest we have to both at the minute, not an encouraging thought - won the SP overnight.
 
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I don't know. I for one cannot get too righteously indignant at unruly sports fans. Some are there just for the excitement of being at the Olympics, to get drunk with their friends, to cheer raucously for the home team (what sport is it that we are watching now? Curling? What the heck is curling?.")

At least they are not stampeding and trampling folks like at a football game.
There is such a thing as etiquette. Cheering for your team when they do well is standard, but cheering when people mess up or fail isn't exactly classy or welcoming as "home country" fans.
 
We're more likely to see one judge being out of line by being positive when everyone else was negative, if there was an error that that judge happened to miss. But it's possible a single judge saw (or thought they saw) an underrotation/edge error that the tech panel that did not call, and everyone else missed it.

This might be even more likely on elements like spins, where most judges might look away from the skater to the computer screen during the final windup, for the second or so it takes to input the GOE, and it's just on the exit that the skater has a slight mishap that could warrant reducing the GOE from positive to (at least in some views) negative final GOE.

Say someone did a 3Lz+3Lo. Very difficult. They under-rotate the +3Lo.

Someone goes "-1: it's a UR combo".

Someone else goes - "it's so hard, and the 3Lz was fully rotated. Also, everything else was fine. Plus, the combo is underrated in the current system. +3, because it's already getting scaled down by the penalty".

This is not at all to disagree with you, but rather to provide context. I'd fully support the second judge in this scenario, and frown at the first one, because IMO blindly following guidelines is never good.
According to the official guidelines,
These guidelines are tools to be used together with the minus GOE charts. The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects. It is important that the final GOE of an element reflects the positive aspects, as well as any possible reductions that may apply. The final GOE of an element is calculated considering first the positive aspects of the element that result in a starting GOE for the evaluation. Following that a Judge reduces the GOE according to the guidelines of possible errors and the result is the final GOE of the element. To establish the starting GOE Judges must take into consideration the bullets for each element. If in an element there is any kind of mistake that requires a reduction, the starting GOE cannot be higher than +3.

This means that an element that was otherwise strong but that warrants a -1 or -2 reduction for one minor error could still end up with positive GOE.
So assuming all judges saw the same error, different judges might have different evaluations of how many positive bullet points to award (how high to start before reducing for the error) and how severely to penalize the error where the negative GOE guidelines give a range of penalties depending on severity of the error (e.g., -1 to -3 for "Euler executed as a stepover" or traveling in a spin).

For jump edge and rotation errors with tech panel calls that are shared with the judges, there are specific reductions judges are supposed to take AFTER awarding whatever positive bullet points the judge thinks the element deserves. Almost all the negative GOE reductions are ranges. So, e.g., for an element called 3Lz+3Lo<, judges are expected to subtract -2 to -3 from whatever they came up with for positive bullets (or non-called errors), and they can't start from higher than +3.

One judge could say "I was originally going to give this combination +3 because the rotation looked fine to me in real time, it looked effortless, there were steps leading into it, and it went with the music. But now I see the tech panel called the loop as under. OK, I'll takeoff -2, the less severe penalty required for that error. So I end up with +1."

On the other hand a different judge could have been less impressed with the preceding steps, effortlessness, and/or connection to the music and not have planned to reward any of them. And they might have seen the underrotation for themself in real time. So they might go as far as 0 as the starting point, -3 for the more severe underrotation penalty, final GOE of -3.

That could lead to GOEs ranging from +1 for the first judge to -3 for the second.

If the tech panel call had been q, then the GOE reduction range is -1 to -2, so the judge who was more impressed by other qualities could have ended up at +2. And a q call doesn't penalize the base value in any case.

If there's no call, the judge who didn't see any rotation doesn't have to reduce at all and can stick with their initial +3, while the judge who did see the jump as not fully rotated can take off -1 -- ending up at -1 if they weren't impressed enough by any other qualities to reward. So a range of -1 to +3 is possible if there's no underrotation call by the tech panel.

But if there is a call of any sort, a GOE of +3 is not justifiable according to the guidelines. The judge can't start higher than +3, and they are supposed to reduce by at least -3 for a << call, at least -2 for <, and at least -1 for q.
 
One long-term heckler at the Sydney Cricket Ground (he was part of the audience on the general admissions area known as the Hill) was so famous he ended up with his own statue when stands replaced the grass...

But unruly or other fans, especially those from prior quads and decades, do seem to be an awfully long way from the original question of quads vs artistry and my (and I think other folks') feeling of 'why is it relentlessly heading for the point where we can't have both???' And yes, I know Yuma - maybe the nearest we have to both at the minute, not an encouraging thought - won the SP overnight.
I believe that Shun Sato has it better?
In fact, with rules respected, a skater has a choice. In fact, a skater has many choices in prioritising this or that in a program, and one of the choices is, having more quads and less transitions, or the reverse. When a skater is unable to have great Components and wouldn't get over 7 - 7.5 anyway, it may be tactically wise to sacrifice perhaps a point of it if he can jump two or three more quads deserving positive Grades of Execution preceded by the speed taking needed, and not taking too much a toll on his organism. If another skater is able to deserve great Components, let's say 95 (as we're speaking of the Free), even if he can replace a triple or two by a Quadruple jump, he may not be willing to have an empty program with 8 in Composition and Presentation, maybe even in Skating Skills, because the difference between the score of a 3Lo and a 4S for instance, even with another such replacement, won't compensate for the lost Components, while being more risky.
So, the IJS rules are already permitting a good balance between quads and transitions (which are more likely to bear artistry). The only problem is to have these rules respected. They're not. Some skaters have Element errors ignored which encourages them to have more of them than they can jump creditably, with often Grades of Execution they don't deserve, and get high Components found nobody knows where. This in my opinion is why we feel a lack of balance overall.
 
We're more likely to see one judge being out of line by being positive when everyone else was negative, if there was an error that that judge happened to miss. But it's possible a single judge saw (or thought they saw) an underrotation/edge error that the tech panel that did not call, and everyone else missed it.

This might be even more likely on elements like spins, where most judges might look away from the skater to the computer screen during the final windup, for the second or so it takes to input the GOE, and it's just on the exit that the skater has a slight mishap that could warrant reducing the GOE from positive to (at least in some views) negative final GOE.


According to the official guidelines,


This means that an element that was otherwise strong but that warrants a -1 or -2 reduction for one minor error could still end up with positive GOE.
So assuming all judges saw the same error, different judges might have different evaluations of how many positive bullet points to award (how high to start before reducing for the error) and how severely to penalize the error where the negative GOE guidelines give a range of penalties depending on severity of the error (e.g., -1 to -3 for "Euler executed as a stepover" or traveling in a spin).

For jump edge and rotation errors with tech panel calls that are shared with the judges, there are specific reductions judges are supposed to take AFTER awarding whatever positive bullet points the judge thinks the element deserves. Almost all the negative GOE reductions are ranges. So, e.g., for an element called 3Lz+3Lo<, judges are expected to subtract -2 to -3 from whatever they came up with for positive bullets (or non-called errors), and they can't start from higher than +3.

One judge could say "I was originally going to give this combination +3 because the rotation looked fine to me in real time, it looked effortless, there were steps leading into it, and it went with the music. But now I see the tech panel called the loop as under. OK, I'll takeoff -2, the less severe penalty required for that error. So I end up with +1."

On the other hand a different judge could have been less impressed with the preceding steps, effortlessness, and/or connection to the music and not have planned to reward any of them. And they might have seen the underrotation for themself in real time. So they might go as far as 0 as the starting point, -3 for the more severe underrotation penalty, final GOE of -3.

That could lead to GOEs ranging from +1 for the first judge to -3 for the second.

If the tech panel call had been q, then the GOE reduction range is -1 to -2, so the judge who was more impressed by other qualities could have ended up at +2. And a q call doesn't penalize the base value in any case.

If there's no call, the judge who didn't see any rotation doesn't have to reduce at all and can stick with their initial +3, while the judge who did see the jump as not fully rotated can take off -1 -- ending up at -1 if they weren't impressed enough by any other qualities to reward. So a range of -1 to +3 is possible if there's no underrotation call by the tech panel.

But if there is a call of any sort, a GOE of +3 is not justifiable according to the guidelines. The judge can't start higher than +3, and they are supposed to reduce by at least -3 for a << call, at least -2 for <, and at least -1 for q.
I think that we sometimes forget that a judge can also push the wrong button. I have read it mentioned several times, but I don't know if it was mentioned here? A judge meaning to push the 3 and pushing the -1. It would be interesting to have statistics about the frequency of this.
 
I think that we sometimes forget that a judge can also push the wrong button. I have read it mentioned several times, but I don't know if it was mentioned here? A judge meaning to push the 3 and pushing the -1. It would be interesting to have statistics about the frequency of this.
Yes, that could happen.

It would be hard to get accurate stats though. You'd have to ask all the judges to go over every protocol and compare every score they gave to their notes, to see if they find any input errors compared to what they intended. Not going to happen.

If it became common to interview judges, you might get anecdotal examples about specific times they noticed too late that their official score was not what they intended to give. But that wouldn't be statistically informative.
 
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