Skipping Europeans VS 4CC

[solani]

No one skips Europeans without a very good reason like an injury. It's unheard of. Well probably Stolbova/Klimov ... (I mean, they skipped Worlds last season, so they are suspects imho).
As I mentioned in another thread, the prize money can't be a reason to skip 4CC this season, because the prize money for 4CC and Europeans have been harmonized this season. But the prize money used to be different, so this could have been a reason in the past. It must be attractive for the skaters to compete at 4CC. I think that the North American Nationals, 4CC and Worlds are too close together. The media isn't that interested in 4CC because of that. Last season Polina became 4CC champion and nobody thought she was the top U.S. lady going into Worlds. It's simply not a title that has weight in the figure skating world and that's the problem.

 

[moriel]

Also, i noticed that there are 30+ countries participating in europeans, and 15 in 4CC. That kinda makes sense, because 4CC is Japan, China, USA, Canada and South Korea, and then mostly random countries that happen to randomly have a skater, basically.
There is no such thing as obscure non european skater, really =/

My guess is that this contributes too - while on europeans, you may have the top dominated by russians, there is way more competition on all levels. Now 4cc have plain less variety.

 

[Mathman]

I know that some people feel Europeans is more prestigious than 4CC because 4CC is a "new" competition but it now exists for 17 years!

But then, too, Europeans has existed for 125 years. It predates Worlds.

People who don't follow figure skating might just ask: "what are those Four Continents?".

People who are enthusiastic about the Olympics might know that the five Olympic rings stand for the five "continents": Europe, the Americas, Africa, Asia, and Oceana. So -- take out Europe and you have the (other) Four Continents.

The only solution I see is to create two separate championships: Asian and North American (or Pan American).

There used to be a North American Championship, which alternated between Canada and the United States. It was discontinued in the 1970s because each country accused the other of unscrupulous dealings and biased judges. Plus, the Canadian Federation was secretly making plans to abandon this format and to create instead the invitational "Skate Canada." This tricky move was countered by "Skate America" a few years later.

THIS! Fans should make it clear that they do not accept people skipping 4CC, that they consider 4CC to be a Championship event that you really should turn up for!

Alas, we can't make the fans care about something that they don't care about. Neither can we make skaters want to attend a competition that they don't want to attend.

(Actually, there is a way. Offer a million dollars in prize money.)

As far as I can see, the only purpose that Four Continents serves is to give non-European skaters a chance to earn more points in the ISU's World Rankings list. One solution would be to discontinue both 4CCs and the rankings.

 

[Rissa]

I'm with Kinga, replacing 4CCs with smaller cgampionships would only do damage. The results in each discipline would be much more predictable.

It's been pointed out that Euros determine the final Worlds team for Russian skaters. If US, Japan, China and Canada employed the same or similar system, the skaters would stop skipping it for sure. Some, like Hanyu or W/P, could still afford to skip, but Adam Rippon and Mao Asada probably couldn't.

 

[moriel]

I'm with Kinga, replacing 4CCs with smaller cgampionships would only do damage. The results in each discipline would be much more predictable.

It's been pointed out that Euros determine the final Worlds team for Russian skaters. If US, Japan, China and Canada employed the same or similar system, the skaters would stop skipping it for sure. Some, like Hanyu or W/P, could still afford to skip, but Adam Rippon and Mao Asada probably couldn't.

Well +1, considering 4CC is already WAAAAAAAAAY smaller than Europeans, wouldnt make sense breaking it down even more.


Maybe maybe, a solution would be something like a mix of current spot format and GP: each country has spots and all, but if a skater WDs, the one who replaces it is the skater with highets rank out of a substitute list, not necessarely from the same country as the skater who WD. While skaters wouldnt care, the federations would (for example, if 2 american skaters WD, the next in line for that spots could be not necessarely american).
And if the top skaters are consistently participating, the competition will gain more prestige too.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I agree on the fact that it's a bit silly to skip 4CC to give more time to prepare for Worlds. While yes I understand about time zone differences, I learned from psychology how it takes for the brain to adjust to change in time zone. Basically an hour per day. Which yes might not be enough time, and they feel like they need to prepare for Worlds....Worlds is over a month after 4CC. That's plenty of time to adjust to time zones and to recover enough. Now if a skater is injured or very sick, then it's a valid excuse. Also 4CC is a perfect place to practice for Worlds. Sure the men might be competing without Javi in the mix, the ladies are competing without the Russian ladies in the mix, pairs will be competing without the Russian pairs and perhaps a few German pairs, and ice dance will be competing without Russia, Italy, and France in the mix, but it'll be a good way to practice for competition in a way and to build up confidence. Like last year: Denis Ten did phenomenal and won 4CC and then went on to win bronze last year. And his GP last year was so-so and we saw POP WOW from him at the 4CC.

While yes I AM happy that Mirai Nagasu and Karen Chen get the chance to compete there (And it'll be Karen's first ISU international championship she'll compete in!), plus Ross Miner, I wish skaters wouldn't just skip it unless its a valid excuse.

 

[Violetti]

It would be silly to skip Euros (because of Worlds) as there are still two months before Worlds.
Do any other skaters skip 4CCs than those of big federations, like Japan and USA, maybe Canada, perhaps Chinese pairs?
In Europe best skaters have to go to Euros to secure the two or three spots or to earn them.
Only Russia could currently replace their best skaters if they would not like to go to Euros and still get those three spots.
I do not consider this skipping of 4CCs so bad. Other skaters get their chance and that might be one step forward and a chance to show what you can do.

 

[TontoK]

I agree with many of you posters. 1. For whatever reason 4CCs is not as prestigious as Euros. I looked this up and Euros use to be like a mini worlds when everyone could compete. It is much richer and longer in tradition than 4CCs which was kind of made up for non euro countries 2. Dates the European nations have nationals much earlier for the most part than NA and therefore or well euros are in January with much more time to rest and lead up to worlds whereas Canada and the US nats are later and 4ccs are later. 4. Travel yes there are top euro skaters training in the NA but there is far less in general time zon e issues and trave and of course more time to recoop for worlds 5. Euros are often used to select or part of the selection process for many teams 6. 4ccs for whatever reason people feel they can skip it; it is not uncommon especially during an Olympic year that the top podium finishers from a nationals will all skip 4ccs there is no real penalty for most part 7. skating is more popular in Europe and there are top notch skaters all cross the continent whereas 4ccs is rather concerntrated ladies US and Japan and sometimes Canada; pairs Canada and China and sometimes US, men has the most diverse. Ice dance - Canada and US..

Among his many accomplishments, Dick Button was European Champion in 1948.

 

[Mathman]

Among his many accomplishments, Dick Button was European Champion in 1948.

And the ladies' champion was Canada's Barbara Ann Scott.

The next year the ISU decided to limit the European Championships to European skaters only.

 

[mrrice]

And the ladies' champion was Canada's Barbara Ann Scott.

The next year the ISU decided to limit the European Championships to European skaters only.

Well, I'm guessing they were called Europeans because they were hosted by a European Country. Its like "Skate America" or "Skate Canada" they are hosted by said Country yet, they are open to all skaters. Like 4cc, maybe the Europeans was getting so big that they decided to limit the number entrants.

BTW, Does anyone know the real reason????? Enquirering minds want to know.

 

[TontoK]

Well, I'm guessing they were called Europeans because they were hosted by a European Country. Its like "Skate America" or "Skate Canada" they are hosted by said Country yet, they are open to all skaters. Like 4cc, maybe the Europeans was getting so big that they decided to limit the number entrants.

BTW, Does anyone know the real reason????? Enquirering minds want know.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_European_Figure_Skating_Championships

"Because North Americans were allowed to participate, the best European single skaters, Eva Pawlik of Austria and Hans Gerschwiler of Switzerland, were awarded only the European Silver Medals. That was the reason the International Skating Union restricted the 1949 Europeans and all the following European Championships to European skaters."

Now, I know Wikipedia isn't an academically appropriate source, but that seems reasonable enough. The best European skaters did not win the European Championship.

 

[mrrice]

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_European_Figure_Skating_Championships

"Because North Americans were allowed to participate, the best European single skaters, Eva Pawlik of Austria and Hans Gerschwiler of Switzerland, were awarded only the European Silver Medals. That was the reason the International Skating Union restricted the 1949 Europeans and all the following European Championships to European skaters."

Now, I know Wikipedia isn't an academically appropriate source, but that seems reasonable enough. The best European skaters did not win the European Championship.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks TontoK..

 

[Jammers]

I agree with many of you posters. 1. For whatever reason 4CCs is not as prestigious as Euros. I looked this up and Euros use to be like a mini worlds when everyone could compete. It is much richer and longer in tradition than 4CCs which was kind of made up for non euro countries 2. Dates the European nations have nationals much earlier for the most part than NA and therefore or well euros are in January with much more time to rest and lead up to worlds whereas Canada and the US nats are later and 4ccs are later. 4. Travel yes there are top euro skaters training in the NA but there is far less in general time zon e issues and trave and of course more time to recoop for worlds 5. Euros are often used to select or part of the selection process for many teams 6. 4ccs for whatever reason people feel they can skip it; it is not uncommon especially during an Olympic year that the top podium finishers from a nationals will all skip 4ccs there is no real penalty for most part 7. skating is more popular in Europe and there are top notch skaters all cross the continent whereas 4ccs is rather concerntrated ladies US and Japan and sometimes Canada; pairs Canada and China and sometimes US, men has the most diverse. Ice dance - Canada and US..

I don't know about the top notch skaters all across the continent when it comes to European countries. Russia mostly dominates Ladies and there is no other European Lady that's a threat internationally and with the exception of the S/M they also rule Pairs. The Men with the exception of Javier don't come close to the depth of the Men at 4CC either.Ice Dancing seems to be the only discipline at Europeans that has depth among more then one country.

 

[RABID]

I feel that skipping 4CC to prepare/focus on Worlds is widely accepted whereas skipping Europeans is still very much frowned upon and I don't really understand why .

I know that some people feel Europeans is more prestigious than 4CC because 4CC is a "new" competition but it now exists for 17 years!

I've also heard lack of competition but on paper all of the disciplines at 4CC are more competitive than at Europeans IMO, even Ice Dance (Pairs might be a toss-up if we factor K/S and S/K being at Euros).

Travel also comes up often when 4CC is held outside of North America but during the GP series skaters also have to travel to different continents in a short time and there isn't that much complain.

What do you think could improve the "attendance" at 4CC?

I see it as a bit of a perception problem. In tennis it is accepted which events are the major tournaments and which are not; the Canadian Open is not considered major but the Australian is and trust me, the Canadian wishes it was. The 4CC, regardless of who attends is also considered a lesser tournament and even nice sums of prize money don't seem to make up for that. The perception remains. Essentially what 4CC needs to do is make winning there something more akin in prestige to winning the Grand Prix Finals (rather than the Europeans) but only open to those pan Pacific countries. I think they need to set up the tournament in a way that weeds out mediocrity and yet still has enough people representing Asian countries so as to maintain its identity. I would make it unlike any other competitions. The threshold for competing would be high and determined by the mean average of scoring results set in the first half of the season. Calculations would also factor in appropriate numbers of participants; not too few and not too many; more than the Grand Prix Finals but no more than fifteen (enough to have at least five countries represented). Some people skip Grand Prix events (Yuna Kim) but no one skips the Grand Prix Finals for reasons like saving themselves for future events or "peaking too soon". I believe that if the tournament could get to that level it would at least be considered a jewel of an event by the Asian community and that would then look after the "attendance" problem.

 

[Mathman]

Well, I'm guessing they were called Europeans because they were hosted by a European Country. Its like "Skate America" or "Skate Canada" they are hosted by said Country yet, they are open to all skaters. Like 4cc, maybe the Europeans was getting so big that they decided to limit the number entrants.

BTW, Does anyone know the real reason????? Enquirering minds want to know.

Adding to what TontoK said, before World War II it didn't matter if North Americans wanted to compete at Europeans or not. They weren't any threat to the top German/Austrians, Scandinavians or British. American Maribel Vinson (later Owen) won a bronze in 1934 and that was it.

After World War II, the skating establishment in Europe was in a shambles. The European championship was resumed in 1946, but the field was thin. Barbara Ann Scott (Canada) won and Gretchen Merrill (USA) was second. Scott won again in 1948 along with Dick Button in men's. I don't know if the European-dominated ISU welcomed the North Americans in order to bolster the quality of the competition, or if they resented the carpetbaggers for taking advantage of the situation. In any case, sentiment quickly turned towards the latter, especially since there was already a North American Championship that only Canadians and U,S. skaters were eligible for.

By the way, I just looked it up and learned that Canadian Montgomery Wilson won the North American Championship 6 times in a row from 1929 to 1937. Considering that the event was held only every two years, this means that he dominated men's skating in North America for more than a decade. He also won three N.A. titles in pairs. Plus, he won the Canadian Championship nine times, provoking the following trivia question:

Who won the Canadian men's figure skating championship the most times? Brian Orser? Kurt Browning? Elvis Stojko? Patrick Chan?

Answer: None of the above.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm willing to bet Gracie doesn't buy her Bananas from Wimpy Banana Company

https://youtu.be/TJdQfjaRAG0

#HoldTheGold

 

[mrrice]

^^Thanks Mathman, Montgomery Wilson. What a Regal sounding name. I don't suppose he has any relation to Tracie Wilson?

 

[mrrice]

I'm willing to bet Gracie doesn't buy her Bananas from Wimpy Banana Company

https://youtu.be/TJdQfjaRAG0

#HoldTheGold

Only in the 80's....

 

[Mathman]

I'm willing to bet Gracie doesn't buy her Bananas from Wimpy Banana Company

https://youtu.be/TJdQfjaRAG0

#HoldTheGold

Now that's what I'm talking about! She should do like Tuktamysheva did last year -- enter every competition she can find and win them all. :yes:

 

[Poice]

I think 4CC should be more often organized by Japan or USA/Canada. The best skaters are more likely to attend competitions that are held in their countries.