Skipping Europeans VS 4CC

[mrrice]

I think 4CC should be more often organized by Japan or USA/Canada. The best skaters are more likely to attendance competitions that are held in their countries.

They also have strong Fed backing which would definitely help. If not financially, they certainly have the best connections for venues and sponsorship money. I always hate to hear of a skater missing an event due to financial concerns.

 

[TrishaG]

As far as I can see, the only purpose that Four Continents serves is to give non-European skaters a chance to earn more points in the ISU's World Rankings list. One solution would be to discontinue both 4CCs and the rankings.

This is the main reason that 4CCs exists. Since European skaters get WS (and WR) points for EC, non-European skaters need a way to earn the same points so things are fair. One reason that Yuzu can skip and no one raises a fuss is that he has the #1 WS. He's going to be seeded in the final group at WC without competing at 4CCs. He also doesn't need more practice at competing well in big events - he's pretty solid there. lol. But in all fairness, the top Japanese man typically goes to 4CCs in non-Olympic years. Last year was an exception because of Yuzu's surgery.

I think a big point in keeping top skaters motivated to skate at EC is the earning of spots for next year. 4CCs gives each federation 3 spots per event so there's no need to earn next year's spots. While this makes it easier for top skaters to turn down the invite without much push-back from their federation, it serves a greater purpose in allowing more skaters from small and developing federations to compete in a high-level ISU event than would have the chance if they had to earn the spots. Outside of Europe and North America, most countries have little depth in figure skating. Even China and Japan have strength in only 2 of the 4 events. It's so important to expose developing programs to high level competition for them to build and improve.

Also, I think this year has just been worse than usual for withdrawals of top skaters. It is fairly common for the American champion in both men's and ladies to turn down the spot (though last year all 3 top men attended). However, losing the#2 American lady in addition is much less common. The #3 American man wasn't named to the team this year since Nathan was to go to both Jr and Sr WC. So the #4 US man was already going, opening up a space for #5 when Adam withdrew. Typically, it's the 2-4th US men, so this seems like more than usual are out. Also, the top Canadian ladies always go, so losing Gabby stands out. Mao has typically competed at 4CC, but she has struggled a lot with her health this year, so it makes sense why she wants to skip the event to get healthy and recoup her lost training time. But it's a loss of another top skater this year. Patrick Chan has previously only attended when 4CCs was in North America and in non-Olympic years. But he is attending this year. IIRC, he wants more practice competing before WC because it's been harder than expected to compete well in his return.

The top pairs and dance teams always attend outside of injury. One reason why is that the prize money is more meaningful to them since pairs and dance teams usually have less opportunity to make money on tours and exhibition events than single skaters.

 

[Pippuripihvi]

Well, Canadians seem to think that 4CC is a simportant as Europeans.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/winter/figureskating/canadians-four-continents-1.3445954

Although PJ Kwong is super delusional when it comes to Canadians athletes (she though Osmond would win Skate Canada 2015 )

 

[LadyB]

Well, she won the Nebelhorn shortly before that. There's nothing wrong with keeping the faith?!

 

[nolangoh]

As long as people accept it when skaters skip 4CC as being a normal thing to do, then it will continue to be skipped.

Just like skipping lectures at school right

 

[cheerknithanson]

Just like skipping lectures at school right

I never do that. I have never done that. Unless it's a VALID excuse like traveling. Which will happen for one lecture this semester (Cause I'll be going to Boston to see the men's FP). Possibly another class in the next two weeks.....won't know until the end of the month. I hope not.

 

[Rissa]

I never do that. I have never done that. Unless it's a VALID excuse like traveling. Which will happen for one lecture this semester (Cause I'll be going to Boston to see the men's FP). Possibly another class in the next two weeks.....won't know until the end of the month. I hope not.

Yes, you're a saint an a perfection of a dedicated student, we KNOW already.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yes, you're a saint an a perfection of a dedicated student, we KNOW already.

I'm willing to bet CKH won't be skipping 4CC's either!!

 

[cheerknithanson]

Yes, you're a saint an a perfection of a dedicated student, we KNOW already.

Yeah. I want to get good grades and succeed.

Though I'm not sure if you were saying that because you were annoyed by me saying it or you were just saying it in response. Sorry. Sometimes emotion can't translate over text too well.

 

[leafygreens]

I think there are two reasons why so many skip.

One because of the travel. IMO, 5 years straight in Asia is too much to deal with. Someone said "you have almost a month to recover." But take out the time between traveling, competing and jet lag and it's really more like three weeks which can be very disruptive. Other US and Canadian cities need to step up and offer to host, besides CO Springs. One solution could be - one year in eastern hemisphere, the next in western hemisphere. Then the travel would be more equitable. As long as it's not held in like South Africa or the bottom of Chile, this should be a good compromise.

Two because US doesn't use 4CCs as any kind of reward so skaters just don't go. Since US has opened the "body of work" can of worms, they could require that skaters go to 4CCs to be named to worlds. If it's not required then the top skaters will keep skipping.

 

[rollerblade]

If it's held in eastern US or Canada, I feel bad for those Australians who have to travel twice as far to get there.

There's just no win-win solution since this tournament covers FOUR continents of skaters. I wonder if there's a reason for such late US/Canadian Nationals compared to the Japanese or Russian Nats. Is it because of Christmas?

 

[Sackie]

For some reason when a skater is introduced as European Champ it means more than someone being introduced as 4CC champ! Maybe because they best don't always attend 4CC. Sort of a catch22. If all the top 4CC skaters showed up maybe winning it would mean more and therefore more top skaters would want to show up to win.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am starting to think the best solution is to redistribute who goes to Europeans and who goes to 4CC... and rename them. I think the best solution is for Russia to be part of Asia, and Europe and the Americas to have the other comp with eachother. Back and forth between Europe and the Americas is not as painful as the Americas and Asia. Russia... has many time zones in Asia.

It also might split up the talent a bit more. I think in both ladies and men Russia vs Asia and North America vs Europe are more evenly matched. In pairs, it would be great to get to see China and Russia go at it. Russia is not as strong in Dance as it used to be... so this type of split would mean the Asian nations trying to get a Dance team going would not have to compete with both Canada and USA each year. Really I think splitting it this way would give more equal competition and reduce travel for everyone... yet somehow I suspect a lot of people would find this very irritating.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I wonder if there's a reason for such late US/Canadian Nationals compared to the Japanese or Russian Nats. Is it because of Christmas?

In a word: yes.

Christmas isn't really celebrated in Japan. And Russia celebrates Christmas in January (they still use the Julian Calendar for their religious festivals). So, these countries can get away with holding their Nationals during what we consider as Charistmas Week.

America and Canada have to wait until after the Christmas / New Year holiday period is over. But, what I can't understand is why they can't hold them early in January, as soon as the holidays are over.

And that was the crux of my previous post in this thread. That these need to be held earlier, so that 4 Continents (or my proposed replacement Championships) could be held earlier, straight after Europeans.


Speaking of my proposals, it seems that people don't like them, as there would be even fewer skaters going to each of the Championships as there are to 4 Continents.

Well, what if minimum TES's were set at a lower level that would enable more skaters to meet the requirements. This would be a great help for skaters from countries where figure skating is an obscure sport, and where the level of competition is lower. It would give them the chance to compete on the international stage, and get an idea of the level they have to get to.

Like Giselle, I like seeing skaters from countries that you don't normally associate with figure skating. And I do feel that the current minimum TES's are preventing us from seeing more of these skaters from obscure countries (as well as keeping the number of entries in Pairs competitions down). So, I would be in favour of this.

The other option is that the number of entries a country was able to send could be increased from the current 3 to, say, 4 or 5. That would also give more skaters the opportunity to make themselves beter known on the international stage.

The problem with this is that it would inevitably lead to there being more skaters from the "big" nations at the top of the standings, and the skaters from smaller countries would be pushed further down the order. Which would demoralise them rather than encourage them. Consequently, I prefer the lowering the minimum TES option.

So, would you support my proposals if it meant more skaters could enter?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathman]

To me, I say let the skaters decide what they want to do without either enticement or penalty by the powers that be. If you give a party and nobody comes, then, yes, you end up looking foolish. But you can't force people to come if they don't want to.

I think that the issue of training to peak at the right time is more subtle than just counting how many days you need to get over jet lag. There is a rise and fall and a balance between rest, light exercise, and killing yourself for the big push. Boxers take 6 months to get themselves in "ring shape" for the big fight. (They are always in shape, but not always in ring shape.)

Gracie was not in ring shape yesterday. She said as much. Now, with this disastrous interruption, she may not be able to get into ring shape by worlds.

Different strokes for different folks. If Polina Edmunds at 17 wants to go, go, go, then good for her. But I think Ashley and Mao made the better choice for them.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

To me, I say let the skaters decide what they want to do without either enticement or penalty by the powers that be. If you give a party and nobody comes, then, yes, you end up looking foolish. But you can't force people to come if they don't want to.
.

But can we trust them to do what we want them to?

 

[Giselle]

We can't force people to come to the party but maybe we can make the party more attractive so more people will come.

Let's be honest, how many skaters from "Obscure 4CC countries" were actually born/train in the North America?
Would hosting 4CC in North America every year help? Or alterning between Japan (when Worlds is in Asia) and North America (When Worlds is in North America or Europe)?

 

[NaVi]

We can't force people to come to the party but maybe we can make the party more attractive so more people will come.

Let's be honest, how many skaters from "Obscure 4CC countries" were actually born/train in the North America?
Would hosting 4CC in North America every year help? Or alterning between Japan (when Worlds is in Asia) and North America (When Worlds is in North America or Europe)?

Something needs to be done about the 4CC or it's going to continue to languish. Looking at where it's held should be one of the first things looked into.

I'd consider...

1. Alternating between Japan and the West Coast of the US every year.
2. West Coast of the US every year... no high elevation places with another time zone to adjust and travel through. ...
3. Hawaii every year(6 hour flight from the US, 8 hour flight from Japan)

 

[noidont]

NA should bid more often if they think jetlag is so bad for their skaters. End of the story. Many European skaters train in North America.
Personally I think skipping 4CC is foolish. Most skaters don't make GPF, so basically their only real international competition of the season would 1 or 2 GPs early in the season. How are they going to know where they stand PCS-wise against foreign skaters if they skip the one late-season championship before Worlds? I say some are just scared to find out where they truly belong and worry that would take their confidence built from bogus nationals away. Mao and Hanyu are decorated champions. Different story.

 

[el henry]

Something needs to be done about the 4CC or it's going to continue to languish. Looking at where it's held should be one of the first things looked into.

I'd consider...

1. Alternating between Japan and the West Coast of the US every year.
2. West Coast of the US every year... no high elevation places with another time zone to adjust and travel through. ...
3. Hawaii every year(6 hour flight from the US, 8 hour flight from Japan)

It will never happen, but man, *that* would be the 4CC to attend!:agree: