Tim Goebel leaving Frank Carroll

[mzheng]

I personally think that the judges are doing their part to protect their skaters. The US men and the Russian men always get the good scores and the benefit of the doubt in the SP. It helps to skate for a country with a powerful federation.

Yes. And with more seats in judge panels. What I mean is NA to NA and formal Soviet to formal Soviet.

Bottom line is the new forces from untraditional FS country is hard to get recognized by Judges and fans. Since most judges and fans grown up by watching the traditional and classic westernized FS style.

Such is the life. You want achievement in a new env? Fit in first. Then try to improve it, bring in new fresh air. That's what I view chinese pairs developing path.

 

[Linny]

Coach's control

Of course a coach does not have complete control over their skater. TT wasn't happy about SC's decision to skate the cheesefest... and it was a contributing factor to their breaking up. Frank Caroll wasn't happy way back when Michelle Kwan took her seniors tests without his permission, but it was a done deal by the time he heard about it, so he could only go forward from there.

However, after struggling, in terrible pain, for an entire season, methinks that a good heart to heart between coach and student would have been enough to convince the student that perhaps they needed to find the solution to this problem, even if it meant passing on USA Nationals. For goodness sakes, surely Tim was aware that he was landing any jumps, even in practices. Probably, all he needed was his coach's approval to withdraw and he would have. This is all conjecture on my part... but one look at Tim and you could see how horrid he felt.

His coach let him down. He didn't find the solution, and he didn't help that skater graciously bow out until the solution was found.

Linny

 

[mzheng]

I agree what Linny said.

However with so many elite skaters in his hands, with all those competetion he had to company skaters to, I doubt Frank had the time needed to spend with Tim. Last season, Frank was at several JGPs and JGP finals, GPs, etc.

That's why I say it is a good move for Tim.

 

[attyfan]

Control ...

Evan is skating while injured; he has said repeatedly that it is solely his decision to do so. TT wanted Sasha to withdraw from a cheesefest; it was the decision of Sasha and her mother to disregard TT's advice. I'm not sure that Tim's skating while injured was something that Frank (or any coach) could have controlled.

 

[Linny]

Control

My coaching is in a different sport and for considerably less money... and I coach very young children at the beginner levels. Still, I take my responsibility very seriously. If one of my students insists on doing something that I don't feel is safe, then I ask them to find a different coach.

The students, young as they are, very rarely insist. They trust me to help them move up in our sport safely and they don't push. They show enthusiasm for the harder stuff but if I say "not today" they understand.

I had a parent who insisted. That student is no longer with me.

If Tim insisted on going to USA Nationals even though he couldn't land any jumps in practice, even though he was in considerable pain, then Frank should have told him he have to go without him. Somehow, I doubt this is what happened.

Linny

 

[merrywidow]

Sorry, but I cannot believe that a 22 yr. old man (last Jan. he was 22) who has been skating most of his life doesn't have the brains to know if he is capable of competing or not. Plenty of people have competed injured. Look at Plushenko last season. Laying the blame on the coach for a young adult's decisions is a cop out. Did Tim not leave Carol Heiss under similar differences of opinions? I understood that he wasn't even speaking to her when he left her.

 

[Linny]

22 years old

I was 40 years old and taking a clinic with a well respected clinician (at a cost of around $300 dollars an hour, I might add). The clinician asked me to do something that I didn't think I was ready for but because he was a so-called master, I just did it... and almost got hurt. Thank goodness, I didn't.

Now, is that my fault? Or the fault of the clinician?

Teaching manuals (and I've read plenty of them since that time) say that the coach has to be rilly rilly careful in this. The student, regardless of their age, is in awe of the instructor - especially a big name, expensive instructor.

Frank Caroll, by his own admission, has said that if he asked Linda Fratianne to jump off a building, she'd do it. That's how much she put her life in his hands.

It would take a whole lot of guts for a student to say "no" to the teacher... for the student to say "I know better" to the likes of Tatianna or Richard or Frank would take a lot of nerve.

Sasha said "I know better" to TT and, well, their relationship pretty much fell apart after that. Besides that, it appears that Sasha really didn't know better and that, perhaps, she shouldn't have done that cheesefest.

Knowing that there is a risk that saying "I know better" might cause a rift in the relationship, and believing that the teacher really does know better (that's, after all, why they are the teacher and get paid the big buck) and having a rather hefty investment in being taught... many, many students won't say "no".

Now, the person who was teaching me that day had never seen me before. He made a split second decision based on what he knew of me and my abilities from the first 30 minutes of our lesson plus the biographical information I'd submitted when I applied to be in the clinic. So, it really was my responsibility to say "I don't think I'm up to that"... but I didn't have the spunk.

Many, many other adults have since told me that they, also, don't have the spunk to say "no" to these big name coaches. BTW, in the student gets hurt and a lawsuit results, the courts will rule in favor of the student. The feeling is that basically, it is the instructor's responsibility not to "over face" their student. That's why instructors in my industry (equestrian) carry instructors insurance.

Could Tim have under estimated the extent of his problems? Could he maybe have thought that things were better than they were and not told his coach? Sure, that's a distinct possibility.

But was his coach keeping track of completed jumps in practice? Was his coach looking at the man's face and seeing the pain that we all saw clearly on the television? And, if he was aware of the problem, how did it drag on for a full year without being resolved?

If Tim couldn't, wouldn't say "Gee, this isn't working" to his coach and his coach wasn't astute enough to realize that the problems were this serious, then they need to dissolve their relationship. You might believe that it's not Frank's fault and that Timmy bears full responsibility, but I disagree. The coach bears a strong burden of responsibility.

Linny

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Plushenko skated last season with a bum knee. Tim's problem was a spinal disfunction. A skater with a broken leg can not skate. A skater with a serious illness can not skate. Klimkin and Lambiel can't skate after surgery. There are many reasons why a skater is off the ice. Plush is lucky.

Joe

 

[Doggygirl]

Hi Linny..

While I agree that everyone in life should pay more attention to the health and welfare of those we serve (being considerate rather than selfish in our motivations) I do think I disagree on one point.

Personal Responsibility.

No coach, or boss, or husband, or any authority figure lives inside my own mind and body like I do. I consider it MY responsibility (no blaming others) to decide what is or is not best or right for me to do, physically or otherwise.

I have not seen any direct quotes from Tim suggesting that his coach is to "blame" for anything - so I'm not saying Tim has done that.

Assuming Tim has NOT done that, (and I hope he hasn't) then it's particularly important that the rest of us who are truly on the sidelines don't start placing blame.

Just my 2 cents.

DG

 

[PrincessLeppard]

Linny, before you go all nuts on Frank Carroll, I have a friend who knows Frank. (I have no reason not to trust friend; I understand if you choose not to.) Tim spent most of last year not practicing, thinking he didn't need to. Maybe he did get injured trying to catch up for the GP (recalling that he pulled out of SA) but at Nationals, Frank was very frustrated with Tim's training methods and had just about given up.

So, take that for another point of view, if you will. I don't know either party personally, but it is good to consider all angles.

What is a "spinal dysfuntion" anyway? And how was it fixed?

Laura

 

[SailorGalaxia518]

Actually, it was boot problems that led to other injuries. I have no disrespect for Frank Carroll. I wish Tim the best and hopefully he can make a run at the Olympic gold medal in 2006

 

[Mathman]

Princess Leppard, without taking sides, I do often wonder how these elite skaters keep themselves motivated to show up at practice every day. How many thousand repititions of your triple Lutz can you do until you get bored?

I also wonder exactly what else a coach can teach a skater at this level. Tim is not learning any new tricks, his presentation skills are holding steady. After a couple of years he might want to move on just to try something different.

Mathman

 

[fanforlady2001]

I wish Tim the best, with Frank or not. Tim seems happy right now, that is all that matters.

 

[dorispulaski]

Princess Leppard, Both could indeed be true. If Tim was hurting, and didn't want to practice, and Frank interpreted this as lack of focus and malingering, both can be telling the truth as they see it.

I saw Tim at practice at Nationals before the SP, and he was basically unable to skate and was in obvious pain, at least at that time. He would get up to speed do a trick and stop. He looking like he was skating on broken glass.

There are coaches who tend to ignore the pain of the skater. And now that I think about it, I think of Michelle skating on her leg with a stress fracture, again due to boots. Frank didn't stop her either. And Evan seems to be skating hurt this year.

However, there are 2 articles at 2 articles on coaching change

Audrey uses the Dartfish method, which is apparently a version of "Chevy Stromotion" as seen on ABC where you can compare what the skater did at various points in a skill versus how he did it the previous time. Tim apparently likes this method and used it to get his quad toe back this summer while working with Weisiger..

If you have a chance, go to www.rinkside.org and download Tim's new SP from NHK. It's a really good program, and he shows a lot of improvement.

I hope this works out well for all concerned.

 

[Ptichka]

Princess Leppard, without taking sides, I do often wonder how these elite skaters keep themselves motivated to show up at practice every day. How many thousand repititions of your triple Lutz can you do until you get bored?

I recall an interview with Plushenko where he talks about how sometimes he just feels like he wants to quit, like he can't go on, like he just wants to stay in bed all day. He says that is when he needs his coach's motivation to keep him going.

 

[LegalGirl82]

Was surprised to read this, but hey, whatever works. Good luck to both Tim and Frank.