chuckm said:You are entitled to your opinion, and you can bet anything you want on your beliefs, but you sound like a conspiracy theorist, and your assertions are unprovable.
chuckm said:However, from your statements about 2001 Junior Worlds, slutskayafan, NOW it becomes crystal clear to me why you are so negative about both Weir and Lysacek. All this time I thought it was because they were US skaters, but I see that it was really because they had the temerity to beat Lambiel way back when.
Makes just as much sense as your conspiracy theories.
slutskayafan21 said:I have read books from former skaters and former judges(although mostly disgrunted judges who write a book) who speak of it happening when referring back to junior days or junior events. I doubt they make it up, and watching how the junior events are judged on TV it becomes believable to me as well.
slutskayafan21 said:Really so an example like Tonya Szewcenko coming 4th at Junior Worlds with the same performances(I saw both events, they were almost identicle skates)that she managed 3rd at the Senior Worlds, would be due to maturing as a skater? Sorry the events were only 3 months apart, and the month before that Szewcenko had won Nations Cup over World Champion Biaul. None of her Senior performances all year jibe with her landing all her jumps cleanly in the short, 5 of her 6 triples cleanly in the long and being beaten badly by Kwan, Czako(who landed only 3 triples in the long, and is only a jumper), and Slutskaya, that year.
Yeah, man. I would even go so far as to say that in the same event, if there were 15 different judges and Callers acting on the skaters, there would be different results. I believe each judge has his own private criteria, and two sets of judges and officil panels would produce two sets of results - not necessarily the winner but toally different in the other placements.antmanb said:Why on earth would her placement in a competition have to be the same for the same performance...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't she up against a different set of skaters at Senior Worlds than she was at Junior Worlds? So it then becomes an assessment of how the competition skated - again a matter of your opinion - you seem to think there's some dubious judging but still haven't presneted any fact sot substantiate your claim.Ant
antmanb said:Why on earth would her placement in a competition have to be the same for the same performance...correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't she up against a different set of skaters at Senior Worlds than she was at Junior Worlds? So it then becomes an assessment of how the competition skated - again a matter of your opinion - you seem to think there's some dubious judging but still haven't presneted any fact sot substantiate your claim.
Ant
chuckm said:OK, slutskayafan, you want to be proved wrong? You got it!
Slutskayafan21:
“2001 World juniors-This was the year the French and U.S formed block judging to put Weir, Lysacek, and Restancourt on the podium and keep Lambiel and the other contenders off the podium no matter how they skated.”
“In the short program Lambiel skated cleanly with the same jumps as Lysacek and was placed behind him. That would never happen without cheating sorry, imagine at a senior event Lysacek and Lambiel ever skating cleanly with the same jumps and Lysacek coming out ahead, ROTFL!! I would be my house on that never happening in a SENIOR event, where some semblance of real judging occurs, rather then mommies and coaches deciding results, as anybody who has read insider books of people involved in juniors events would get a sense of just from reading the books. Weir blew a jump in the short, and still won the short too, he had a harder jump combo though. Basicaly in a senior event Lambiel would have won the short easily since he would never lose to Lysacek if both skated cleanly with the same jumps in a SENIOR judged event, or Weir missing a jump even with a harder jump combo.”
First of all, a World Junior competition consists of three segments: QR, SP and FS. At Worlds 2001, Weir, Lysacek, Restencourt and Lambiel all skated in the same QR. Lambiel finished 4th in the QR, which was consistent with his 7th place in the FS. Here were the placements (QR, SP, FS) of the top 5 men:
1, 1, 1 (2.0) WEIR
3, 2, 3 (5.4) LYSACEK
2, 6, 2 (6.4) RESTENCOURT
1, 4, 5 (7.8) MA
4, 3, 7 (10.4) LAMBIEL
Here were the marks and Ordinals for the SP:
#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
5.4 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.2 5.0 5.1 4.8 1-WEIR
5.6 5.3 5.7 5.4 5.5 5.6 5.5 5.5 5.5
1 3 1 2 1 2 1 1 3
5.3 5.3 5.2 5.2 5.0 5.3 5.1 4.9 5.0 2-LYSACEK
5.3 5.2 5.5 5.3 5.0 5.4 5.2 5.0 5.3
3 1 2 1 2 3 2 5 2
5.3 5.2 5.2 4.8 4.9 5.3 5.0 5.2 5.1 3-LAMBIEL
5.5 5.2 5.4 5.0 5.1 5.5 5.2 5.2 5.4
2 2 4 5 3 1 4 2 1
5.2 4.8 5.3 4.9 4.7 4.8 4.9 4.8 5.0 6-RESTENCOURT
5.1 4.9 5.3 5.1 4.4 4.8 5.3 4.7 4.9
5 6 3 4 7 8 5 8 6
Judges:
1-Zonneyken BEL
2- Paul GER
3-Baseilhac FRA
4-Babenko RUS
5-Velchev BUL
6-Betsch GBR
7-Bogdanova AZE
8-Ryan AUS
9-Kurri FIN
US/French alliance? How? There was NO US judge on the panel. The referee and assistant referee for the SP were Swedish and Croatian, respectively. Furthermore, Judge #6, Francis Betsch (who judged for Great Britain at the time, but became a French judge shortly thereafter) was one of only two judges to place Lambiel first in the SP. The judges who placed Lambiel 4th, 5th and 4th, which kept him in 3rd in the SP, were from France, Russia and Azerbaijan. Restencourt received a 3rd place from the French judge, a 4th place from the Russian judge, and a 5th place from the Azerbaijani judge. You can point to a Russian/French connection, perhaps, but leave the US out of it. Therefore, it cannot be argued that Weir and Lysacek received their placements in the SP due to positive bias on their behalf.
The FS (with the same judging panel, in the same order):
#1 #2 #3 #4 #5 #6 #7 #8 #9
5.4 5.3 5.3 5.4 5.2 5.6 5.3 5.4 5.7 1-WEIR
5.3 5.5 5.7 5.7 5.4 5.7 5.4 5.4 5.7
3 1 2 1 3 1 2 1 1
5.6 5.4 5.6 5.5 5.3 5.6 5.4 5.4 5.8 2-RESTENCOURT
5.4 5.1 5.6 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.4
2 4 1 2 4 2 1 2 2
5.5 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.5 3-LYSACEK
5.5 5.2 5.0 5.4 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.3 5.5
1 3 6 3 2 5 4 4 3
5.2 5.1 4.8 5.1 5.1 5.3 5.0 5.1 4.9 4-BUTTLE
5.4 5.1 5.2 5.2 5.2 5.4 5.2 5.4 5.2
4 6 7 6 5 4 6 3 9
5.6 5.5 5.4 5.4 5.3 5.5 5.5 5.5 5.6 5-MA
5.0 5.1 5.0 4.9 4.9 5.0 5.2 5.0 5.1
5 2 5 7 6 6 3 5 5
5.2 5.1 5.0 4.8 4.8 5.0 4.7 5.2 5.3 7-LAMBIEL
5.2 5.2 5.5 5.4 5.2 5.3 5.1 5.2 5.4
7 5 3 8 8 7 9 7 4
Interesting----the FRENCH judge placed Lambiel 3rd and Lysacek 6th---no pro-US bias there. It’s hard to point out any particular bias, except that the French and Finnish judges placed Lambiel significantly higher than any of the other judges. My guess is that Weir, Restencourt and Lysacek simply skated very, very well in the FS, as reflected by the placements of the majority of the judges.
For those who want to see the full results, here is the link:
http://www.icecalc.com/events/wjc2001/results/CAT041RS.HTM
slutskayafan21 said:... I had read in a book written by a former U.S judge where he spoke of France and American officials talking in the practices leading up to the competition at the 2001 World juniors, and how that was the sort of thing you did at junior events and it was common and accepted.
The same book also mentioned Tara's old coach being fired over a fallout when they were upset with the judging at the 96 World juniors, and Tara's own mom believing there was dealmaking against her daughter at that event that led to the Russian sweep, a year after she had come 4th at her first World juniors.