Would Lipinski have won Nagano under CoP?
- Thread starter Fossi
- Start date
If CoP would have been used in those days, Lipinski (and other skaters) would have had programmes to suit that scoring system. Anyway, I think it is possible that Tara might have benefitted from CoP, because surely she herself would know it.
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If CoP were in use at that point in time, then both Tara and Michelle would be working like crazy to rack up points.
So it's hard to say, whether anything would have really changed much.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2005
I am not sure if Tara would have been able to attain the highest levels in spins, footwork, and spiral sequence, the difficulty requirements to get those. Michelle if familiar with the system, at that point in her skating career, probably would have. Michelle would also get more GOE on her spins, footwork, and spiral sequence then Tara IMO. Michelle would get higher PC scores, who knows by how much exactly. If they did the same programs they did in Nagano Tara would have exactly a 1.7 edge in jump difficulty in the short program. I am guessing Michelle has the lead after the short program. In the free skate maybe Tara's triple loop-triple loop would give her a 3.7 edge in jump difficulty if their other jumps were the same. I dont know how much the cautious nature of her skate would have hurt her PC scores from what they sometimes are, maybe that kind of intangible does not show up in the scores like it did under the old system. I actually think Michelle wins in this case.
Maybe I'm too subjective, because I'm a Michelle fan, but Michelle Kwan was superior in 1998 to Tara in all aspect of FS. I think that with CoP Michelle would have won in 1998. Michelle jumps quality were for +1 or +2 GOE, Tara's jumps were for 0 or -1 GOE. Michelle was better in spins, spirals, footwork. And also her PCs scores would have been higher.
The only reason Tara won the 1998 Olympics was the triple loop/triple loop.
The only reason Tara won the 1998 Olympics was the triple loop/triple loop.
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Tara would have won under either system. Tara was an all around skater with quick feet, great spins and consistent jumps. The general security of her jump landings would have offset the height of her jumps. I also think she would have racked up points for her spins because her spins were fast, well centered and had great positions. Her overall energy level and performance ability would have been rewarded with high PCS marks (as well as her speed and stroking skills).
Tara was also a very determined competitor- she would have done anything to get the highest level in everything so she could rack up the points.
Tara was also a very determined competitor- she would have done anything to get the highest level in everything so she could rack up the points.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
So have at it, all you judges!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUC0xVV1ANQ
Tara Lipinski 1998 Olympics SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuDsjBFhjs
Michelle Kwan 1998 Olympics SP no commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAFGeh1Or3E
Lipinski LP Australian commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUBpz2uFO1U
Kwan LP no commentary
I couldn't find any Lipinski no commentary clips, but at least the Australian is less annoying than Scotty.
I haven't watched these in a long, long time.
Some general stuff: Now that I don't remember Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP so clearly, I am more impressed with her Olympic LP. (At the time, it was clear to me that Kwan could do this LP better) And the standing ovation of the crowd needs to be noted.
Lipinski's back pumping while doing crossovers annoys me more now than it did then. It's really pronounced. And her flutz going into the combination is really bad, and indistinguishable from a flip. Her skating skills, choreo and performance grades would all be quite a bit lower than Kwan's on my score card. Plus there is excessive skating to build up speed between spirals. She and Kwan both have bad laybacks (no wonder Uncle Dick began complaining about them about this time!) Kwan's combo spin and flying spin are very good. And I really like the spin sequence in the middle of Lyra Angelica.
Today, Lipinski's 3t 1/2lp 3s sequence would get hammered with the 0.8 sequence 'penalty'. I would suggest would be judges should not do that here, since she was obviously capable of doing the jumps separately. And her 3lp3lp was really, really nifty, the more outstanding by comparison with 3lp combo's we have seen lately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUC0xVV1ANQ
Tara Lipinski 1998 Olympics SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzuDsjBFhjs
Michelle Kwan 1998 Olympics SP no commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAFGeh1Or3E
Lipinski LP Australian commentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUBpz2uFO1U
Kwan LP no commentary
I couldn't find any Lipinski no commentary clips, but at least the Australian is less annoying than Scotty.
I haven't watched these in a long, long time.
Some general stuff: Now that I don't remember Kwan's 1998 Nationals LP so clearly, I am more impressed with her Olympic LP. (At the time, it was clear to me that Kwan could do this LP better) And the standing ovation of the crowd needs to be noted.
Lipinski's back pumping while doing crossovers annoys me more now than it did then. It's really pronounced. And her flutz going into the combination is really bad, and indistinguishable from a flip. Her skating skills, choreo and performance grades would all be quite a bit lower than Kwan's on my score card. Plus there is excessive skating to build up speed between spirals. She and Kwan both have bad laybacks (no wonder Uncle Dick began complaining about them about this time!) Kwan's combo spin and flying spin are very good. And I really like the spin sequence in the middle of Lyra Angelica.
Today, Lipinski's 3t 1/2lp 3s sequence would get hammered with the 0.8 sequence 'penalty'. I would suggest would be judges should not do that here, since she was obviously capable of doing the jumps separately. And her 3lp3lp was really, really nifty, the more outstanding by comparison with 3lp combo's we have seen lately.
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2003
I'm a Michelle fan, too. However, Tara's less restrained performance also helped her win gold. MK's LP was reserved and lacked the joy of her skating at ANY Nationals. Her Oly peformance paled in energy level as compared to her Nationals performance that year [which was off the charts in 98 IMO].
Back on topic about COP. As others have mentioned, they would have skated different programs and would have been totally different skaters if COP was the scoring system back then. If COP had been in effect, MK's COE spiral with her heart open would not have existed because she would have not been able to hold the position as long before changing into some another position.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2006
I think it would have depended entirely on how long the system would have been in place. If the system was in place since the worlds before (1997), then any of the ladies could've won (as we saw with the last Olympics). But, if it had been around since 1994 or before, one of the older ladies would've taken the title (probably Michelle).
Then again, I still believe if Tanja Szewczenko had been healthy, she could've played spoiler (much like Shizuka had played spoiler in this Olympics to Sasha and Irina).
Then again, I still believe if Tanja Szewczenko had been healthy, she could've played spoiler (much like Shizuka had played spoiler in this Olympics to Sasha and Irina).
Lucky for you Tarotx, I am not a Kwan fan. Why do you insist Kwan fans think CoP is evil? Do they really tell you that? 
I just think it would be interesting to see how it would be judged under CoP. So much has been said of that competition that whether you are a Kwan fan, or just speaking FOR Kwan fans :chorus: , under CoP would be interesting!
I just think it would be interesting to see how it would be judged under CoP. So much has been said of that competition that whether you are a Kwan fan, or just speaking FOR Kwan fans :chorus: , under CoP would be interesting!Lucky for you Tarotx, I am not a Kwan fan. Why do you insist Kwan fans think CoP is evil? Do they really tell you that?
A lot of fans don't like CoP for a lot of reasons, so Kwan fans shouldn't take the brunt of it. After all, I recall reading posts debating some of Weir's anti-CoP comments -- so why not let them "share the glory"?
Standing after the Short program
Tara Lipinski-52.50
Michelle Kwan-51.80
It was close but both skaters had deductions for not holding spirals for 3 seconds or minimun of 2 revs on spin positions...as well as no real attempt to level up spins...but this one before the system soooo...
I'm just doing the longs and then i will but the protocols on send files or one of those sites
Tara Lipinski-52.50
Michelle Kwan-51.80
It was close but both skaters had deductions for not holding spirals for 3 seconds or minimun of 2 revs on spin positions...as well as no real attempt to level up spins...but this one before the system soooo...
I'm just doing the longs and then i will but the protocols on send files or one of those sites
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