Your opinion on Skate Canada

[Astrid56]

Or perhaps some judges aren't focused on ordinals gaming as you sincerely believe.... [No winks on my side for this one...]

I laid out my perspective a bit earlier on why different national federations and fans have different ways of seeing and appreciating skating.

Concern that ISU needs to do more to establish consensus and work with judges towards consistent application of the rules seems fair, assuming that judges are playing numbers games based on a single competition in which a particular team was in your view underscored makes me wonder why you continue to watch. [BTW I stopped watching skating after Salt Lake City. Only reason why I gave it another chance was because my kids fell in love with the sport, and I had to figure out how things work now.]

I really see that many judges in many countries have moved on from ordinals and have embraced IJS and COP judging....but I do accept that many GS posters are concerned about persistent tendencies to link PCS scoring to TES or to judge based on past performances rather than the day, especially the components with more subjective criteria [Performance, Composition, Interpretation].

I will note again that a strictly bottom up approach from a Canadian judge is going to produce something that may not overall be the same as the others...But as you note, it's not usually the extreme on any one element or component....Why do you assume it's gamesmanship?

IMO it's not surprizing that Skate Canada has been one of the most committed to the move away from 6.0 given the final impetus for the creation of a new system after Salt Lake City.

But it's also true that there was a longstanding dissatisfaction, and it's not too much to say loathing, by Canadian fans of the lack of transparency of 6.0 as well as the tight linking of the artistic impression ranking to technical performance.

Canadian fans seem to really want to know that their national federation has moved on. Definitely do not hear a lot of nostalgia for 6.0 among the older senior audience here, even among those who don't really understand how the new system generates the scores...

I made a mistake by using 'ordinals' as my base. Actually, it's the raw score given. Ordinals are just their way of ranking the skaters/teams but behind the ordinals are the raw numbers that ultimately decide the outcome.

Why do I assume its "gamesmanship"? It's part of strategizing - I have yet to know a person who is involved in competitions who does not plan his/her strategy. It's in the methodology that they differ.

 

[TGee]

I made a mistake by using 'ordinals' as my base. Actually, it's the raw score given. Ordinals are just their way of ranking the skaters/teams but behind the ordinals are the raw numbers that ultimately decide the outcome.

Still, would really welcome your actual total numbers from the raw scores...

That way we could see if the judges had given overall scores that were really tightly together or widely distributed... Or whether certain judges were on average very high or very strict...

 

[4everchan]

You're right some of us are still focused on the raw scores (not the ordinals - the result) for logical reason. Even though the high and the low are dropped, the cumulative result of the remaining scores comprise the overall result. It is a 'numbers game' and some are very good with their scoring strategy . For instance, practically all the scores given by the Canadian Judge to his teams V/M and G/P got retained whereas those from the Russian Judge got dropped. The Italian Judge high scores for his team got thrown, too. And all the high scores given by the Russian Judge to his team suffered a similar fate. Some Judges are either smart (Canadian) or some just not .

actually, a smart judge would need to get their score thrown out...

simply... if a judge wants to advantage a team, they would need to have the highest score.... so that the second highest is counted.

so if a judge got their scores counted, they are not playing any particular scoring game... and on top of that, it's not like they know what the other judges put down

 

[Skater Boy]

Big things that stick in my mind are:

1. The huge potential Kaetlyn Osmond has as an artist and athlete.
2. Virtue and Moir it is their first skate but I think they needed something with wow and this isn't it and technically they are in trouble - it doesn't allow them to show off their magic.
3. Hanyu I still believe he will win it all but that sp really bothers me. It will score well if skated cleanly but it really doesn't do much artistically or suit him the best imho.
4. The push for technical difficulty in men and pairs is really affecting the overall skating.
5. People stopping comparing scores in other competitions. It doesn't work
6. It's going to be a long season on these threads of people nitpicking and bickering and showing off our biases

 

[Astrid56]

actually, a smart judge would need to get their score thrown out...

simply... if a judge wants to advantage a team, they would need to have the highest score.... so that the second highest is counted.

so if a judge got their scores counted, they are not playing any particular scoring game... and on top of that, it's not like they know what the other judges put down

Maybe! The Canadian Judge made a smart calculation and posted a score just slightly lower than what I guess he expected from some judges. Some kinda have a feel of some Judges' scoring patterns/tendencies.

 

[Astrid56]

Still, would really welcome your actual total numbers from the raw scores...

That way we could see if the judges had given overall scores that were really tightly together or widely distributed... Or whether certain judges were on average very high or very strict...

The Judges' Detail per Skater list all the raw scores. It's an open book ready for your perusal. Check this out: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/gpcan2016_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf.

 

[4everchan]

i think you didn't understand my point...

if the Canadian judge wanted to give an advantage to his/her team, they needed to score the highest mark... meaning that the next judge's high score will be counted instead of thrown out...


simple example... with 5 judges

8.5 8.6 8.8. 9.0 . 9 .2

Canadian judge is 9.0 and counted as you suggest...

thrown out are 9.2 and 8.5... total average is 8.8


let's try one with canadian judge being "smart" and making sure his/her score won't be a factor ..

8.5 8.6 .8.8 9.2 9.9

Canadian judge is 9.9 thrown out..

remaining scores when 8.5 is out as well, 8.6, 8.8, 9.2....

average is just below 8.9


so as i said, a smart and biased judge would make sure that their score are the lowest or highest as that's when there is actually a real influence on the result.... when it's done on purpose.

Maybe! The Canadian Judge made a smart calculation and posted a score just slightly lower than what I guess he expected from some judges. Some kinda have a feel of some Judges' scoring patterns/tendencies.

 

[Astrid56]

i think you didn't understand my point...

if the Canadian judge wanted to give an advantage to his/her team, they needed to score the highest mark... meaning that the next judge's high score will be counted instead of thrown out...


simple example... with 5 judges

8.5 8.6 8.8. 9.0 . 9 .2

Canadian judge is 9.0 and counted as you suggest...

thrown out are 9.2 and 8.5... total average is 8.8


let's try one with canadian judge being "smart" and making sure his/her score won't be a factor ..

8.5 8.6 .8.8 9.2 9.9

Canadian judge is 9.9 thrown out..

remaining scores when 8.5 is out as well, 8.6, 8.8, 9.2....

average is just below 8.9


so as i said, a smart and biased judge would make sure that their score are the lowest or highest as that's when there is actually a real influence on the result.... when it's done on purpose.

Oh, I got your point. Maybe the Russian Judge did that but it is an odd strategy, at best. Why would one do that? I think, she hoped for the best.

 

[lyndichee]

Maybe! The Canadian Judge made a smart calculation and posted a score just slightly lower than what I guess he expected from some judges. Some kinda have a feel of some Judges' scoring patterns/tendencies.

Or maybe he just put down a score he felt was "fair" and his definition of fair is influenced by his nationality. I think that is similar with all judges and his happened to remain in the scores. While I believe ISU judges should be professional and skeptical, every human has their biases. I don't think any of these judges are truly opportunists in that sense.

I swear it is only in figure skating that Canadians are demonized endlessly In everything else, Canadians are always seen as the nice/neutral/polite group.

 

[TGee]

The Judges' Detail per Skater list all the raw scores. It's an open book ready for your perusal. Check this out: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/gpcan2016/gpcan2016_IceDance_FD_Scores.pdf.

Uhm, I'm comfortable in reading the protocols thanks.

But had inferred that you had taken each judge's GOE for each element and and multiplied by the BV from the tech panel and then added that to get a TES for each judge for each skater....by a spreadsheet.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

editing to add the link to the ISU Scale of Values [SOV] Chart that came into effect for Ice Dance in July 2016

http://static.isu.org/media/339059/2015-id-scales-of-values-2016-17.pdf

By this chart, a judges score of 2 on a SILi4 translates to multiplying the BV of 4.50 by 1.2 for example...

But I take it that you didn't do this calculation....

 

[4everchan]

Or maybe he just put down a score he felt was "fair" and his definition of fair is influenced by his nationality. I think that is similar with all judges and his happened to remain in the scores. While I believe ISU judges should be professional and skeptical, every human has their biases. I don't think any of these judges are truly opportunists in that sense.

I swear it is only in figure skating that Canadians are demonized endlessly In everything else, Canadians are always seen as the nice/neutral/polite group.

in figure skating, in certain media ... not even everywhere... I had no clue Canadians were demonized endlessly in FS before lurking at FS forums...

i also thought most skaters were loved

now, accordingly to this thread, Skate Canada is rigged... especially Ice Dance, where the Tech Controller was ... erm... American and gave the Americans highest levels... oh well.

 

[Astrid56]

Or maybe he just put down a score he felt was "fair" and his definition of fair is influenced by his nationality. I think that is similar with all judges and his happened to remain in the scores. While I believe ISU judges should be professional and skeptical, every human has their biases. I don't think any of these judges are truly opportunists in that sense.

I swear it is only in figure skating that Canadians are demonized endlessly In everything else, Canadians are always seen as the nice/neutral/polite group.

Didn't I say judging is 'subjective' and 'relative'? Our background influences our perspective and actions. Anyone who doesn't believe that, I think, lives in 'La La Land'.

 

[lyndichee]

in figure skating, in certain media ... not even everywhere... I had no clue Canadians were demonized endlessly in FS before lurking at FS forums...

i also thought most skaters were loved

now, accordingly to this thread, Skate Canada is rigged... especially Ice Dance, where the Tech Controller was ... erm... American and gave the Americans highest levels... oh well.

We seem to be hated here. Sometimes I feel like my opinion is invalid because I am a Canadian and cannot possibly be objective. I remember someone saying that they will call rink security on Canadians because they will be too annoying. The Canadian crowd at SC this weekend just wanted to clap along to any beat that came, even if it was for 5 seconds

Didn't I say judging is 'subjective' and 'relative'? Our background influences our perspective and actions. Anyone who doesn't believe that, I think, lives in 'La La Land'.

I didn't say you didn't, I was specifically addressing your point on judges trying to strategically give scores to ensure highest scoring potential. I don't think they go as far as your previous post stated.

 

[Astrid56]

We seem to be hated here. Sometimes I feel like my opinion is invalid because I am a Canadian and cannot possibly be objective. I remember someone saying that they will call rink security on Canadians because they will be too annoying. The Canadian crowd at SC this weekend just wanted to clap along to any beat that came, even if it was for 5 seconds



I didn't say you didn't, I was specifically addressing your point on judges trying to strategically give scores to ensure highest scoring potential. I don't think they go as far as your previous post stated.

No reason to hate anyone here. I'm merely citing the 'numbers' and these don't lie and, like it or not, these numbers are very revealing ...

 

[lyndichee]

No reason to hate anyone here. I'm merely citing the 'numbers' and these don't lie and, like it or not, these numbers are very revealing ...

I'm not sure where you got the idea of hate in my post other than some people really disliking Canadians. I am pretty sure that my cited example also had nothing to do with you as well.

My only point to you was just discussing why I disagreed with your point, if you feel that it is a personal attack it is not.

 

[TGee]

No reason to hate anyone here. I'm merely citing the 'numbers' and these don't lie and, like it or not, these numbers are very revealing ...

As I've edited to add below, I have the impression that you haven't actually run and cited the numbers based on the current ISU SOV.... It's a pain to do, and kudos if you have done it, but protocols alone can't give you an individual judges TES for a skater...

And while the numbers are what they are, there would need to be collaborating evidence to support your inference of bias and gamesmanship...

 

[Astrid56]

I'm not sure where you got the idea of hate in my post other than some people really disliking Canadians. I am pretty sure that my cited example also had nothing to do with you as well.

My only point to you was just discussing why I disagreed with your point, if you feel that it is a personal attack it is not.

No, I just got the impression that you think Canadians are hated, etc. I am just commenting, on my end .. I don't feel that. And it's OK to disagree. Again, my comments are based on the numbers shown on the Judges' Detailed Skaters' scores. I didn't magically produce those numbers, they originated from the Judges' score cards.

 

[HanDomi]

Men: Although nobody skated close to their best, I still love Patrick's LP, Hanyu's SP, and I'm also growing more fond of Hanyu's LP. I still hate the choreography of that first spin and the musical transition going into the last Quad, but it's a lovely program otherwise. I really appreciate how he spread the jumps throughout this program, doing the Flip literally out of where after the footwork sequence and then doing that Lutz at the VERY end of the program. Impressive. Also the 4Loop attempt in the LP didn't deserve the << call I don't think, it was a bit past forwards, a better attempt than the SP.

And you was so critical of LP after AC I think it will have even more impact once he skates it clean. My fav part is section of 3A's

 

[TGee]

No, I just got the impression that you think Canadians are hated, etc. I am just commenting, on my end .. I don't feel that. And it's OK to disagree. Again, my comments are based on the numbers shown on the Judges' Detailed Skaters' scores. I didn't magically produce those numbers, they originated from the Judges' score cards.

Uhm, Astrid56

Could you show us how you got from the protocol to the TES for one judge and one skater for example....?

As I've mentioned below, one needs to use the SOV to get from the score on the protocol to the GOE factor that gets multiplied by the BV for an element. And the SOV number is different for each element and each level of element.

If you've created a spreadsheet that can do this for dance scores, I know that many of us would love to have you share it.

But if you are treating the judges' scores on the protocol as if they were ordinals, that wouldn't be accurate....

 

[Astrid56]

As I've edited to add below, I have the impression that you haven't actually run and cited the numbers based on the current ISU SOV.... It's a pain to do, and kudos if you have done it, but protocols alone can't give you an individual judges TES for a skater...

And while the numbers are what they are, there would need to be collaborating evidence to support your inference of bias and gamesmanship...

For your information, I didn't bother to analyze the TES scores. I just did the PCS scores posted for each judge. As far as I know, the TES _ elements, level of difficulty, and the corresponding point values are assigned by the technical panel and it's up to the judging panel (the judges) to make the numerical adjustments referred to as the GOE (grades of execution) which range from a -3 to +3. I don't question the technical scores as I am not an expert on the process. I have learned a few things but not enough to make a rational judgment.

By the way, because of the judging panel's ability to make those numerical adjustments (the GOE or grade of execution), the Technical Panel's power to influence the judging is minimized.