2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate

[Icey]

Frank Carroll on pre-rotation

http://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/


I suspect Mirai will have mastered her 3ax by next season and she will be formidable, certainly in the USA.

 

[largeman]

Frank Carroll on pre-rotation

http://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/

Thank you for the article.

Here is a thread from 2014 on this topic. I found the explanations from Components very informative. Also, in the thread, coach Trevor Laak's website was referenced. This was a helpful resource for me to get some basic understanding on jump mechanics as well.

 

[Tutto]

We can speculate all we want about how Satoko's jumps might be better if this or that, and how she's such a hard worker to make up for her being "not that talented" (yeah right, ANYONE who gets that far in elite figure skating has to be both talented and hard working to some degree) but it doesn't change the fact that she is under-rotating and prerotating her jumps. The judges should be judging her for what she puts out, not for her effort.

Agree. It simply is not fair to other skaters.
I am very doubtful as to all kind of excuses some posters make for the judges - she rotates too fast, no strict rules on pre-rotation, no time to review jumps etc etc. I think the judges are perfectly aware of Satoko's jumps shortcomings it is just for some reason they turn a blind eye on them. The judges do not exist in some sort of a bubble. They judge the same skaters the whole season and they have briefings and what not to discuss things . If we see that something not right with her jumps it even more obvious to a trained eye. It makes me sick that nothing in reality has changed since 6.0 era - the decisions still made behind closed doors.

I'd love to hear what Mr Mishin would say about all this. He is a jump expert and doesn't mince his words. Anyone knows if he ever commented on Satoko's skating?

 

[Perdita]

Could anyone provide me an example of a jump that was downgraded because of the take-off?

It seems to me that what many here call 'pre-rotation' (which is not the word employed in ISU technical handbook) is different from what ISU regard as 'cheated take-off' (as written in ISU technical handbook).
This is the only example I know of (3Fe+3T<<):
https://youtu.be/SVozXWoY2lk?t=73
The 'cheated take-off' Nam did here for his second 3T is nothing like what Satoko does or what many seem to call 'pre-rotation'. So I want to see an example of a jump that looks similar to Satoko's technique and got << call. Thanks in advance!

 

[[email protected]]

Trying to lump Liptniskaia's and Satako's jumps together as "tiny jumps" is dumb... Yulia was given that label in relation to some of her competitors... i.e, Yulia has small jumps in comparison to Adelina... but Satako has small jumps in comparison to Yulia.

And this is something I forgot, but Yulia wasn't doing 2A+3T+2T 2A+3T at least during Euros 2014 and the Olympics.

And Yulia's 3T after 2A is twice as big as Satoko's.

 

[andyjo24]

Frank Carroll on pre-rotation

http://icoachskating.com/jump-principles-speed-and-pre-rotation-frank-carroll/


I suspect Mirai will have mastered her 3ax by next season and she will be formidable, certainly in the USA.

Everything is falling into place for Mirai in preparation for Pyeongchang 2018.

I hope she can get the momentum going!

 

[andyjo24]

And Yulia's 3T after 2A is twice as big as Satoko's.

I have to agree that Yulia's jumps, despite being small themselves, are bigger than Satoko's.

As much as I love Satoko's pristine artistry, I find it hard to believe that her jumps are actually jumps. They're more like small hops (literally 2 inches above the ice). The fact that she is receiving +1, +2 GOE for her prerotated "jumps" over big jumpers like So Youn Park, Gracie Gold, and Mirai Nagasu is just absurd.

This just goes to show that jump distance, height, and quality do NOT matter at all. It is all about "appearing" to get the rotation on the jumps and landing them. There is no incentive for skaters to have good jump quality anymore...

 

[Osmond4gold]

Kaetlyn's 4CC FS was the best she's skated all season, and I was duly impressed. She wanted to end her season on a high note, and she succeeded in doing that. Good for her!

OTOH, Gracie's FS at 4CC was the worst FS she's skated all season and I was very disappointed, but not that surprised. Gracie has never skated well at 4CC. I don't think she likes the long travel to Asia so soon after US Championships.
When she has a disastrous SP like the one at 4CC, she usually gets mad and has a bangup FS, but that didn't happen
this time. You can be sure you'll see a different Gracie in Boston.


As for the other ladies improving and impressing, Alaine wasn't at all impressive at 4CC. She messed up the 3z combo in the SP, and started off the FS the same way, and the old habits just crept right back in: df, so, ur. She just seemed tired and disinterested, almost like Gracie. Veronik was her usual smiling self, but she is several tiers lower than Chartrand and Daleman.

Chuckie...I hear Crow, with enough gravy and ketchup, and a cheap bottle of wine (or in your case whine), almost tastes like,..chicken!!!

Enjoy!

 

[chuckm]

Chuckie...I hear Crow, with enough gravy and ketchup, and a cheap bottle of wine (or in your case whine), almost tastes like,..chicken!!!

Huh? With her poor skating, Gracie BEAT Kaetlyn's great skating. For all the raves about how Alaine has improved by leaps and bounds this year, she finished lower at 4CC 2016 than she did at 4CC 2015.

Let's wait and see if Chartrand and Daleman can beat Gracie at Worlds.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Huh? With her poor skating, Gracie BEAT Kaetlyn's great skating. For all the raves about how Alaine has improved by leaps and bounds this year, she finished lower at 4CC 2016 than she did at 4CC 2015.

Let's wait and see if Chartrand and Daleman can beat Gracie at Worlds.

Again Chuckie, ...you don't get it!

After your disparaging words about Kaetlyn the past 3 years, and now your recent attacks on Alaine and Gabby, you need to know that the goals for Canadian women are long term - growing as skaters, gaining experiences while also, taking risks, (as in attempting a Triple A, at 2 international events - Alaine). By far, I appreciate this approach regardless of placement, than a cautious Gracie, who, without being gifted with PCS, was lucky to stay in the top 5 at 4CC's.

Gracie's jumping skills are strong but with a stiff upper body, she is constantly guessing while in motion. I also see signs that she has lost her ...joy! Compare this with the 3 Canadians who love being on ice, take risks, push each other as individuals and are never...beige! Canada has not had 3 ladies so competitive and strong as individual skaters.

I am enjoying the ride, Chuckie, and look forward to their improvement and future results.

 

[chuckm]

As I said in other posts, Gracie doesn't seem to like skating at 4CC, so that might explain her lack of joy at this event. If you saw her at Nationals, you couldn't have seen a happier, more jubilant skater. BTW, it isn't just Gracie's jumping skills that are strong. She also happens to be one of the top spinners in the business, her footwork is excellent and so is her speed. It is her overall strong skating skills that keep her PCS high even when her jumps aren't working.

ALL skaters from ALL federations have long term goals just the same as the Canadians. There are many more US skaters (in addition to those going to Worlds) who are as competitive and strong as the 3 Canadian ladies and who are looking for long-term success.

However, most don't try tricks in competition until they have mastered them in practice with at least an 80% success rate. I find it hard to believe that Alaine has done that with the 3a.

 

[peg]

Huh? With her poor skating, Gracie BEAT Kaetlyn's great skating. .

The fact that the judging was unfair and Gracie got gifted PCS while Kaetlyn did not receive the PCS she deserves does not diminish the quality of Kaetlyn's skating and perfomance.

And from a technical standpoint, this skate was not great for Kaetlyn. She turned two triples into doubles, and one double into a single.

 

[FSGMT]

I have to agree that Yulia's jumps, despite being small themselves, are bigger than Satoko's.

As much as I love Satoko's pristine artistry, I find it hard to believe that her jumps are actually jumps. They're more like small hops (literally 2 inches above the ice). The fact that she is receiving +1, +2 GOE for her prerotated "jumps" over big jumpers like So Youn Park, Gracie Gold, and Mirai Nagasu is just absurd.

This just goes to show that jump distance, height, and quality do NOT matter at all. It is all about "appearing" to get the rotation on the jumps and landing them. There is no incentive for skaters to have good jump quality anymore...

I have seen both Julia and Satoko live many times and I have to say that this is not true at all: Satoko's jumps are small, yes, but they look controlled, natural, almost effortless and, yes, they are definitely jumps (a lot more than it happens to seem on a screen I have to say). Julia's, on the contrary, look a lot more laboured and "forced", surely less pleasant to watch for me, and I've seen them both skating clean programs. There are many other qualities to admire in these two skaters, but were I to choose the jumps of one of them I'd choose Satoko's without a moment's hesitation

 

[chuckm]

The fact that the judging was unfair and Gracie got gifted PCS while Kaetlyn did not receive the PCS she deserves does not diminish the quality of Kaetlyn's skating and perfomance.

Maybe in the future when Kaetlyn has finished in the top 6 at Worlds 3 years in a row, she too will get very high PCS scores even when she skates off form (and fans of her rivals will grouse about it, no doubt).

And from a technical standpoint, this skate was not great for Kaetlyn. She turned two triples into doubles, and one double into a single.

Even so, this was her best FS performance of the year. She skated faster and with more expression than she did at Nebelhorn, and that skate had technical glitches, too.

 

[solani]

This is the only example I know of (3Fe+3T<<):
https://youtu.be/SVozXWoY2lk?t=73
The 'cheated take-off' Nam did here for his second 3T is nothing like what Satoko does or what many seem to call 'pre-rotation'. So I want to see an example of a jump that looks similar to Satoko's technique and got << call. Thanks in advance!

When you only look at the toeloop it's exactly what Satoko does also. She's only doing it much faster.

 

[Perdita]

When you only look at the toeloop it's exactly what Satoko does also. She's only doing it much faster.

I'm looking at the toe loop and they don't look same to me... When Nam's toe hits the ice, his leg is twisted that his toe is not in concordance with his body rotation. His foot movement proceeds his body revolution that he's actually taking-off forward. But I don't see that with Satoko. Yes she takes half a revolution before her toe completely leaves the ice, but her toe hits the ice when her foot is in line with her jump direction and then she starts to rotate, it's not like she twists her leg then hits the ice. I hope I'm making sense...

 

[solani]

I'm looking at the toe loop and they don't look same to me... When Nam's toe hits the ice, his leg is twisted that his toe is not in concordance with his body rotation. His foot movement proceeds his body revolution that he's actually taking-off forward. But I don't see that with Satoko. Yes she takes half a revolution before her toe completely leaves the ice, but her toe hits the ice when her foot is in line with her jump direction and then she starts to rotate, it's not like she twists her leg then hits the ice. I hope I'm making sense...

I see what you mean. Nam really pulls his right leg up. I still think it's basically the same thing, because both are using the left leg for the take-off, not the right leg. Only Satoko does it more fluently and she's able to pick almost right from her right foot with the left foot. Makes it look smooth.

 

[ioanna]

Has anyone made a Mao jumpamatron similar to Satoko's? I'm talking about super slow motion. I watched the replays from NHK Trophy on 0.25 speed so I would genuinely want someone to explain the differences between their take-offs on toe jumps.


https://youtu.be/oWEAfrV2ZUE?t=4m28s
https://youtu.be/bzGq4dCb49Q?t=6m22s

 

[solani]

Has anyone made a Mao jumpamatron similar to Satoko's? I'm talking about super slow motion. I watched the replays from NHK Trophy on 0.25 speed so I would genuinely want someone to explain the differences between their take-offs on toe jumps.


https://youtu.be/oWEAfrV2ZUE?t=4m28s
https://youtu.be/bzGq4dCb49Q?t=6m22s

I only know of Sam-Skwantch's lutzamatron https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCkHbrOyUO4. There's a slow-mo of Mao's lutz take-off in the beginning.
I would say, when it comes to flip and lutz, the most obvious difference is that Mao picks with the toepick and Satoko picks with the blade.

 

[Perdita]

I see what you mean. Nam really pulls his right leg up. I still think it's basically the same thing, because both are using the left leg for the take-off, not the right leg. Only Satoko does it more fluently and she's able to pick almost right from her right foot with the left foot. Makes it look smooth.

Satoko's toe picks right but she is jumping toward her right side too. When I compare Satoko's jumps with other current top ladies, her jumps do have more 'pre-rotation', but it's actually quite common in the junior circuit and I still haven't found a case where a jump was downgraded for that kind of technique. That's why I'm suspecting that the judges might be seeing a difference between Nam's and Satoko's and am looking for another example... I'm trying to know what ISU really means by 'cheated take-off' and it's never that clear to me. But thank you for giving me your opinion anyway!