2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate

[solani]

Satoko's toe picks right but she is jumping toward her right side too. When I compare Satoko's jumps with other current top ladies, her jumps do have more 'pre-rotation', but it's actually quite common in the junior circuit and I still haven't found a case where a jump was downgraded for that kind of technique. That's why I'm suspecting that the judges might be seeing a difference between Nam's and Satoko's and am looking for another example... I'm trying to know what ISU really means by 'cheated take-off' and it's never that clear to me. But thank you for giving me your opinion anyway!

Well, Nam's take-off was clearly forward (and that's a "cheated take-off"). You could see that in realtime, that's why the jump was downgraded. And I've only seen toeloops being downgraded because of "cheated take-off". And I can't see Satoko's pre-rotation in realtime (some users say they do and it must be a difference when you see the skater live of course), but I only see it in slow-mo.

 

[Perdita]

Well, Nam's take-off was clearly forward (and that's a "cheated take-off"). You could see that in realtime, that's why the jump was downgraded. And I've only seen toeloops being downgraded because of "cheated take-off". And I can't see Satoko's pre-rotation in realtime (some users say they do and it must be a difference when you see the skater live of course), but I only see it in slow-mo.

There are cases that toeloops were downgraded because of landing, like Rika Hongo's 3F+3T<< at 4CC, and that's all I can find except for that Nam's case. You mean you know other examaples? I think I'm not fully understanding what you are saying, are you not saying that Satoko is 'cheating the take-off' too? If what Satoko is doing is 'pre-rotation' and not 'cheated take-off', there's no rule in ISU handbook to punish that and that's what I want to know...

ETA: I was wrong to say that Nam's was the only one I know for a cheated takeoff since it's quite common that a skater gets downgraded for a half loop combo like this one.
https://youtu.be/_YBUzTX_6hU?t=78

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Her jumps are huuuuge and she is a far better performer than Gold. So if she is at her best, then yes, she can compete with Gracie at her best.

Agreed. I had to think about that when that "Gracie is the most naturally gifted lady in this field" discussion happened in the SP thread. Honestly, I really don't see how Gracie is supposed to be superior to Kaetlyn as a skater. The only areas where Gracie is better are SS and spins. But IMO Kaetlyn has better jumps: great ice coverage, better transitions before the jumps, better flow with the music and most of all way better running edges coming out of the jumps, posture and extension on the landing and therefor better flow throughout. She also has more transitions in her programs, and even more importantly better transitions that actually do something for the music and choreography. She's at least equal to Gracie in CH and then definitely beats her in PE and IN. There's also the fact that Kaetlyn's lutz has improved to a point where it's actually cleaner regarding the take-off edge than Gracie's flip.
To put it short: I'd flat out say that clean Kaetlyn could/should beat a clean Gracie

What Gracie does have over Kaetlyn is less time out of competitions due to injuries which allowed her to cement herself as one of the leading ladies, which Kaetlyn couldn't do. Add a nice Frank Carroll bonus PCS boost to that and IMO it's clear why Gracie (unfairly) beats Kaetlyn in PCS.

Also, people need to stop bringing up Gracie "doesn't like 4CC" as an excuse for her skates here. If she doesn't like 4CC, then she doesn't need to go.

 

[ioanna]

I only know of Sam-Skwantch's lutzamatron https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCkHbrOyUO4. There's a slow-mo of Mao's lutz take-off in the beginning.
I would say, when it comes to flip and lutz, the most obvious difference is that Mao picks with the toepick and Satoko picks with the blade.

I know that video but that's not really a jumpamatron compared to Satoko's slow motion video where you can see her feet on full screen. They both pick with their toepick first and they both help themselves up using the blade, although in Mao's case it's only just slightly while in Satoko's case it looks like she presses a bit more. But what I'm talking about is the extent of the prerotation. With 0.25 speed, Mao's flips and lutzes look 180 degrees prerotated to me.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I know that video but that's not really a jumpamatron compared to Satoko's slow motion video where you can see her feet on full screen. They both pick with their toepick first and they both help themselves up using the blade, although in Mao's case it's only just slightly while in Satoko's case it looks like she presses a bit more. But what I'm talking about is the extent of the prerotation. With 0.25 speed, Mao's flips and lutzes look 180 degrees prerotated to me.

I'll make another video if you would like. I'll do flip jumps of Zhenia compared Satoko with stopping at takeoff and the moment their blades touch down. I'll also throw one in of Mao's. Is there anyone else I should add to it?

I think the biggest issue with Satoko that is the most absolute most glaring is the 3t in combination though. That is the jump where she PR's 270 degrees and then UR's over 90's on the video that I put out. It should be a downgraded 3t in my opinion and this is where she is scoring about 5 extra points alone.

 

[matmuh]

Is there anyone else I should add to it?

maybe not in that video but i would love to see So Youn's video, you never did it before right? she isnt the most consistent obviously but when she is on she is one of the best jumpers with great technique (at least that how it seems to me ) :luv17: i dont remember her getting an edge call :think: maybe we cant have seperate thread for So Youn's Sal but we can definitely have a video dedicated to her jumps

 

[ioanna]

I'll make another video if you would like. I'll do flip jumps of Zhenia compared Satoko with stopping at takeoff and the moment their blades touch down. I'll also throw one in of Mao's. Is there anyone else I should add to it?

I think the biggest issue with Satoko that is the most absolute most glaring is the 3t in combination though. That is the jump where she PR's 270 degrees and then UR's over 90's on the video that I put out. It should be a downgraded 3t in my opinion and this is where she is scoring about 5 extra points alone.

I'm pretty sure Evgenia has better jump technique than Satoko, it's just Mao's technique that I find a bit odd. About the 3T I agree it looks pretty bad when she jumps her 3Lz-3T combination in the SP but not so much in her 2A-3T combinations, where she gets more points. The problem is that what was originally meant to be constructive criticism has turned into ridiculous haterade which has spread all over YouTube with people claiming she cheats all of her jumps and it would be disgusting for such a skater to win Worlds (I'm pretty sure she won't) when in reality her edge jumps are fine and to me it looks like she prerotates her lutz/flip just as much as Mao. I'm only using Mao as an example because they have both trained with Japanese coaches most of the time. Just saying this before Mao fans interpret it as hate.

ETA: This is a good angle of Mao's flip take-off from her world record SP in Saitama
Using 0.25 speed and pausing at 5:36 it looks like she's also using her edge to lift herself up (to a lesser extent than Satoko) and she does what it looks like a 180 degrees turn on her toepick before she goes in the air.
https://youtu.be/q2xjUQWPsPY?t=5m34s

 

[Perdita]

Is there anyone else I should add to it?

Sam, could you add Alisa Fedichkina if you don't mind adding a junior? I think her jumping technique is similar to Satoko's.
https://youtu.be/00aOs5MV6Nw?t=149

(And I'm secretly waiting for your Kolyada's lutz jumpamatron... :yay

---

I have decided some time ago that I would not get involved in the whole discussion of Satoko's jump again because I'm honestly quite tired about this... but I somehow did last night and I'll make this the last time I post about this. I'm not arguing that Satoko does not pre-rotate, I just want to know what ISU rule says about that. It just seems to me that 'cheated take-off' (as ISU says) is different from what people here call 'pre-rotation'. I'm not trying to change the opinion of those who think Satoko's jump should be punished, but I sometimes feel that many discuss without knowing some stuffs like: that jump revolution is not solely about the blade angle (but concerns body direction and the curves traced on ice), that the jump revolution is not the total revolution made in the air (but rather relative to the jump direction, see my explanation I did in Stupid Question Thread few days ago) and that the word 'pre-rotation' does not even appear in ISU handbook. I've been gathering informations about this and I just want to share what I came to know with those who are interested. That's all. Sorry if I ever sound offensive to anyone and I'm done with this now.

 

[solani]

There are cases that toeloops were downgraded because of landing, like Rika Hongo's 3F+3T<< at 4CC, and that's all I can find except for that Nam's case. You mean you know other examaples? I think I'm not fully understanding what you are saying, are you not saying that Satoko is 'cheating the take-off' too? If what Satoko is doing is 'pre-rotation' and not 'cheated take-off', there's no rule in ISU handbook to punish that and that's what I want to know...

ETA: I was wrong to say that Nam's was the only one I know for a cheated takeoff since it's quite common that a skater gets downgraded for a half loop combo like this one.
https://youtu.be/_YBUzTX_6hU?t=78

The tech panel is only allowed to review the take-off in regular speed to look for "cheated take-off", that's why Satoko isn't penalized for it. At least that's what I'm inclined to think.
Thanks for the example with the half loop in the combo, haven't seen something like this before.

I know that video but that's not really a jumpamatron compared to Satoko's slow motion video where you can see her feet on full screen. They both pick with their toepick first and they both help themselves up using the blade, although in Mao's case it's only just slightly while in Satoko's case it looks like she presses a bit more. But what I'm talking about is the extent of the prerotation. With 0.25 speed, Mao's flips and lutzes look 180 degrees prerotated to me.

The pre-rotation in the 1st slow-mo is below 180 degrees imo.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

maybe not in that video but i would love to see So Youn's video, you never did it before right? she isnt the most consistent obviously but when she is on she is one of the best jumpers with great technique (at least that how it seems to me ) :luv17: i dont remember her getting an edge call :think: maybe we cant have seperate thread for So Youn's Sal but we can definitely have a video dedicated to her jumps

I'm working on one for So Youn already. I wanted to do a Salchow tribute but now I'm just studying her 4cc programs and getting ideas now. I have been doing a lot of real life "Jumpamatrons"with real skaters both hockey and figure which takes up a lot of time

 

[Osmond4gold]

Also, people need to stop bringing up Gracie "doesn't like 4CC" as an excuse for her skates here. If she doesn't like 4CC, then she doesn't need to go.

Thank you Li'Kitsu and well said, BTW.

I too hate hearing this excuse above...if Gracie loathes this competition sooo much, ...then stay home! I am sure that Courtney and countless others who's season have now ended, would have been thrilled to compete at such a well known international event!

 

[Interspectator]

It's late but I wanted to add here that this was my mom's first time to see Katelyn Osmond skate. She said 'who is this girl? she's a star! What a beautiful smile.' She really liked her.

 

[solani]

(And I'm secretly waiting for your Kolyada's lutz jumpamatron... :yay

Me too!
Jin's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZxyecw1snY is great.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Your mom has wonderful taste Interspectator!

When she is in her zone, there is not a woman in the world today, who can compete with Kaetlyn's PCS. Combine this with her HUGE jumps and her ability to sell a performance and she is truly a rare find in this sport.

 

[matmuh]

I'm working on one for So Youn already. I wanted to do a Salchow tribute but now I'm just studying her 4cc programs and getting ideas now. I have been doing a lot of real life "Jumpamatrons"with real skaters both hockey and figure which takes up a lot of time

her programs from last season's SA was great too except for 3Lo, and her 3-2-2 combo is also

 

[Li'Kitsu]

ETA: This is a good angle of Mao's flip take-off from her world record SP in Saitama
Using 0.25 speed and pausing at 5:36 it looks like she's also using her edge to lift herself up (to a lesser extent than Satoko) and she does what it looks like a 180 degrees turn on her toepick before she goes in the air.
https://youtu.be/q2xjUQWPsPY?t=5m34s

IMO, it's less than Satoko's pre-rotation on the same jump. But another thing that in my opinion contributes a lot to the different view regarding their jumps is the clear 'take-off moment' Mao has. Someone with more technical knowledge can probably explain and word this way better than I can, but with Satoko, I'm just missing that short moment where you can see her go 'up' using the jumping foot/leg (aka the left one for both in flips and lutzes), like a short explosive moment that actually makes it look like a... jump. Satoko doesn't really have that. It looks a bit like she is twirling on the ice and then just kind of takes off, but there is no real moment where she uses the left leg to push herself up from the ice. This also ties into her using her toe pick leg more to vault herself up, and also into the pre-rotation problem.
That said, as critical as I am because of Satokos jumps, I do that because I really want proper technique rewarded and not because I have fun complaining about her or singling her out. And I agree there are a lot of comments about her that are too much and too personal (most skaters that get success are getting those to a certain extent, people just target different "weaknesses" about them).

I have decided some time ago that I would not get involved in the whole discussion of Satoko's jump again because I'm honestly quite tired about this... but I somehow did last night and I'll make this the last time I post about this. I'm not arguing that Satoko does not pre-rotate, I just want to know what ISU rule says about that. It just seems to me that 'cheated take-off' (as ISU says) is different from what people here call 'pre-rotation'. I'm not trying to change the opinion of those who think Satoko's jump should be punished, but I sometimes feel that many discuss without knowing some stuffs like: that jump revolution is not solely about the blade angle (but concerns body direction and the curves traced on ice), that the jump revolution is not the total revolution made in the air (but rather relative to the jump direction, see my explanation I did in Stupid Question Thread few days ago) and that the word 'pre-rotation' does not even appear in ISU handbook. I've been gathering informations about this and I just want to share what I came to know with those who are interested. That's all. Sorry if I ever sound offensive to anyone and I'm done with this now.

I can't talk for anybody else, but for me the exact problem is that the ISU rulebook doesn't say the problems with Satokos jumps should be penalized. It's a point where I think the rulebook doesn't reflect how jumps should be viewed/scored, and that needs to be changed.
Also, I mind her GOE less than most people do. For me, the problems she has are BV related, but I'd rather have BV and GOE judged and handled separately, so that an URed jump can actually get +GOE if the other qualities are there.

 

[Perdita]

I can't talk for anybody else, but for me the exact problem is that the ISU rulebook doesn't say the problems with Satokos jumps should be penalized. It's a point where I think the rulebook doesn't reflect how jumps should be viewed/scored, and that needs to be changed.
Also, I mind her GOE less than most people do. For me, the problems she has are BV related, but I'd rather have BV and GOE judged and handled separately, so that an URed jump can actually get +GOE if the other qualities are there.

I agree with what you are saying. It's hard to understand why ISU doesn't have a stricter rule regarding pre-rotations or why they don't introduce slowmo video reviews for takeoff as well (and, of course, why ISU does not write things clearer in their handbook?). I just get baffled when people start to criticise a skater for what he/she is probably not responsible for, let alone all the conspiracy theories

 

[sabinfire]

I'm working on one for So Youn already. I wanted to do a Salchow tribute but now I'm just studying her 4cc programs and getting ideas now. I have been doing a lot of real life "Jumpamatrons"with real skaters both hockey and figure which takes up a lot of time

Still anxiously awaiting your try at a movie trailer!

I have some time to take a crack at a few videos... anyone have suggestions/requests?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I agree with what you are saying. It's hard to understand why ISU doesn't have a stricter rule regarding pre-rotations or why they don't introduce slowmo video reviews for takeoff as well (and, of course, why ISU does not write things clearer in their handbook?). I just get baffled when people start to criticise a skater for what he/she is probably not responsible for, let alone all the conspiracy theories

What is funny is that they don't have a rule against watching slow motion takeoffs because they look at takeoff edges in slow motion but they are forbidden to see any pre rotation unless it's going at full speed. Lols. :thumbsup:

 

[ioanna]

IMO, it's less than Satoko's pre-rotation on the same jump. But another thing that in my opinion contributes a lot to the different view regarding their jumps is the clear 'take-off moment' Mao has. Someone with more technical knowledge can probably explain and word this way better than I can, but with Satoko, I'm just missing that short moment where you can see her go 'up' using the jumping foot/leg (aka the left one for both in flips and lutzes), like a short explosive moment that actually makes it look like a... jump. Satoko doesn't really have that. It looks a bit like she is twirling on the ice and then just kind of takes off, but there is no real moment where she uses the left leg to push herself up from the ice. This also ties into her using her toe pick leg more to vault herself up, and also into the pre-rotation problem.
That said, as critical as I am because of Satokos jumps, I do that because I really want proper technique rewarded and not because I have fun complaining about her or singling her out. And I agree there are a lot of comments about her that are too much and too personal (most skaters that get success are getting those to a certain extent, people just target different "weaknesses" about them).

Your point is valid and I agree with you. For various reasons (lack of power, not her natural direction), she can't vault herself up with the toepick alone so she makes up for it by rotating with a lot of speed so she can avoid underrotations as much as she can - because underrotations are actually punished by the ISU and the prerotations are not visible in real time like some people have started to claim. That said, even though Mao's take-off is much clearer and you can actually see her leg pushing her body up, her toepick is still turning around to almost 180 degrees. Maybe not 180 degress but it looks close, thus she is also prerotating. And probably a lot of other skaters (who knows how many have gotten away with prerotating/underrotating in the 6.0 era). So if the ISU will ever introduce punishments for prerotations (which means not rotating enough revolutions in the air), most of the ladies' protocols will have > or >> calls. The way I see it, the ISU probably considers that the jump revolution is not the total revolutions completed in the air, like Perdita noted.