2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate

[Kinga]

Kaetlyn will get higher PCS scores when she has more exposure before ISU judges and she can show more consistent performance.

And this is totally wrong.

Yes, Gracie is inconsistent on a seasonal basis. But she has consistently placed top 6 or better at Worlds/Olympics every year since her senior debut in 2013. That's a pretty good "big stage" record, better than any Canadian lady since Joannie Rochette left competitive ice. And Polina has placed top 10 at Worlds 2014, 2015 and Olympics despite her youth, and won 4CC last year. Polina's performances at US Nationals this year were breathtaking.

Osmond has had troubles in the past with her basic skating that could be traced to her injuries. She still struggles with inconsistencies.

Sure Osmond at her best can compete with Gracie at her worst, which is what we saw at 4CC. Can she compete with Gracie at her best? I guess that is the question.

She was not at her best at this event.
Her jumps are huuuuge and she is a far better performer than Gold. So if she is at her best, then yes, she can compete with Gracie at her best.

 

[peg]

No, her height is not the reason (or at least not the main reason) of her small jumps. It's the fact that she learned the skating basics jumping clockwise because that's her natural direction and then they made her jump counter-clockwise when she moved back to Japan. Quoting her coaches, she doesn't have any natural athletic talent and it took her forever to learn how to jump counter-clockwise, just like it's taking forever for her to complete her rotations in the air.

Maybe if they had let her jump in the direction that was most natural to her, she would show more signs of natural talent. I'm sure if other top skaters were required to change their jumping direction, they wouldn't seem as naturally talented either. Besides, no one gets to the level she's at with no natural talent. Her jumps may be lacking, but what she does in between those jumps is of very high quality.

 

[ioanna]

Maybe if they had let her jump in the direction that was most natural to her, she would show more signs of natural talent. I'm sure if other top skaters were required to change their jumping direction, they wouldn't seem as naturally talented either. Besides, no one gets to the level she's at with no natural talent. Her jumps may be lacking, but what she does in between those jumps is of very high quality.

What burntBREAD wrote a few posts up is true. Rinks in Japan are extremely crowded and the skaters are all skating counter-clockwise. Skating in the opposite direction of everyone else was not taken into consideration. Even in her junior years when she started training at the Kansai Skating Club with the likes of Takahashi, Machida and Oda, there were still a lot of skaters around them. Her coaches said she doesn't have natural athletic talent, which basically means she was never a child prodigy and her skating was really bad - or so Yamato Tamura says. He's been coaching her since primary school and he said she was pretty bad at skating when he first saw her. What other skaters could do in a few months, she needed a year or longer to execute properly. She is the embodiment of hard work, passion and dedication and she's always had the mentality of a competitor.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

It's because public rinks in Japan are super overcrowded and skating in the opposite direction of everyone else is just recipe for disaster and accidents.

People shouldn't even be doing high level figure skating moves during public skate. Danger danger!! Does Satoko not attend freestyle sessions. That would just seem insane to think not.

 

[peg]

What burntBREAD wrote a few posts up is true. Rinks in Japan are extremely crowded and the skaters are all skating counter-clockwise. Skating in the opposite direction of everyone else was not taken into consideration. Even in her junior years when she started training at the Kansai Skating Club with the likes of Takahashi, Machida and Oda, there were still a lot of skaters around them. Her coaches said she doesn't have natural athletic talent, which basically means she was never a child prodigy and her skating was really bad - or so Yamato Tamura says. He's been coaching her since primary school and he said she was pretty bad at skating when he first saw her. What other skaters could do in a few months, she needed a year or longer to execute properly. She is the embodiment of hard work, passion and dedication and she's always had the mentality of a competitor.

I'm not disputing that rinks are crowded in Japan, and that there was a reasonable rationale for requiring her to change her jumping direction. Still, I would expect it to take longer for someone to learn jumps in their unnatural direction than it would take to learn them in their natural direction. I'm sure that made her appear less naturally talented. Though I acknowledge that perhaps even jumping in her natural direction, she is less talented than some other top skaters

I agree that she is the embodiment of hard work, to be able get to her level despite having to change her jumps.

 

[burntBREAD]

People shouldn't even be doing high level figure skating moves during public skate. Danger danger!! Does Satoko not attend freestyle sessions. That would just seem insane to think not.

I'm sure she does, but I'm referring to when she first started skating and when I assume she was taught the jumps in Japan -- and I'm pretty sure the freestyle sessions are super packed as well (think of all the skaters that train under Mie Hamada; they probably share ice with Satoko) -- I remember seeing fluff pieces of Japanese skaters practicing with tons of other people on the ice. The country is too small and doesn't have the space to build many private rinks, so it's difficult.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm sure she does, but I'm referring to when she first started skating and when I assume she was taught the jumps in Japan -- and I'm pretty sure the freestyle sessions are super packed as well (think of all the skaters that train under Mie Hamada; they probably share ice with Satoko) -- I remember seeing fluff pieces of Japanese skaters practicing with tons of other people on the ice. The country is too small and doesn't have the space to build many private rinks, so it's difficult.

We cap our Freestyle sessions at 30ppl at my rink and it regularly gets that busy with waiting lists and drama. I really wonder how full they let the ice get in Japan. Also jumps are taught in Learn to Skate Classes once you get past the basics and into the more advanced freeskate levels. The high level skaters are taught in a free corner or separate area of the ice in groups of about 4-6 skaters during hour long classes. There is no jumping allowed during public skates though you'll always see coaches doing turns and edges lessons.

I'm curious how this works in other places. As far as I know the way I'm describing is the standard way for USFSA endorsed classes.

 

[ice coverage]

... I'm referring to when she first started skating and when I assume she was taught the jumps in Japan ...

Satoko and her parents were living in the U.S. when she started skating, weren't they?? Houston, Texas.

 

[largeman]

Satoko and her parents were living in the U.S. when she started skating, weren't they?? Houston, Texas.

Yup, here's the story of how she began skating and the journey of her and her parents to get to where she is today: http://tinyqueensatoko.tumblr.com/post/130834393488/satoko-miyahara-how-to-bring-up-top-athletes

 

[ice coverage]

Yup, here's the story of how she began skating and the journey of her and her parents to get to where she is today: http://tinyqueensatoko.tumblr.com/post/130834393488/satoko-miyahara-how-to-bring-up-top-athletes

Thx for the link.
So it must have been the Galleria shopping mall where Satoko started skating. I wonder whether the proprietors of the rink there have any clue that an international champion was born on their ice.
(I am old enough to remember when the mall opened back in the Dark Ages, with its rink as quite a conversation piece.)

 

[largeman]

And if anything, even though she prerotates sometimes, her landing edges are usually well past a quarter turn to make up for it (while others barely get the rotation or hook their landing edge).

Not sure about "usually." It is true that if you look at her 3T in her 2A+3T combos, the 3T landing is quite backwards. On the other hand, the 3T landing in her 3Lz+3T combo is almost always borderline (as in barely past the 1/4 mark). When you combine that with the >270 degree pre-rotation, her 3T may or may not have 2 full revolutions in the air. And then the landing of her 3F is often borderline as well (the SP one at 4CC looked blatantly 1/4 turn UR'd to me). I could go on.

I, like many others, feel obliged to say that I do admire Satoko as an athlete and as an artist, and I do love watching her programs because they are exquisite. It's the judging and scoring on technical elements that I find very problematic because it's glaringly unfair.

 

[burntBREAD]

Satoko and her parents were living in the U.S. when she started skating, weren't they?? Houston, Texas.

Yes, she first skated in the US, but I was more or less discussing when she started learning to jump and skate counterclockwise (not sure if she started learning jumps in Texas and had to re-learn when she moved).

 

[Batsuchan]

What is pre-rotation? I keep hearing it in regards to Satoko and I have never heard of it before her. How can you tell? I don't get it. Are people just grasping at straws and trying to find something to complain about? Her jumps are small, but she is a good skater.

Please see Sam-Skwantch's fantastic videos, like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZOTRsyspAw
"Pre-rotation" is rotation done BEFORE the blade leaves the ice. All skaters pre-rotate to some degree. However, for a triple jumps, skaters should complete 2.75 rotations in the air (i.e., after the blade leaves the ice and before it touches down again). You can see in that video that Satoko is basically 180 degrees around BEFORE her blade even leaves the ice (at 1:07), and then when she lands, her foot swings another 180 degrees ON THE ICE.

Usually skaters get underrotation calls because that "hook" or small spin on the landing IS visible to the naked eye, so the judges/tech panel will mark it for review and look at it in slow motion. However, because Satoko's jumps are SO small and she spins SO fast, I think it's not visible in real-time, so her jumps are rarely reviewed.

Also--I'm wondering--is it because she doesn't get high off the ground, that when she lands, she doesn't make a lot of "snow" when she underrotates..? Also, I guess she doesn't really land on the toe pick like say, Kanako or Mirai, have tended to do...

 

[Interspectator]

Yes, she first skated in the US, but I was more or less discussing when she started learning to jump and skate counterclockwise (not sure if she started learning jumps in Texas and had to re-learn when she moved).

She said she jumped up to a 2A in texas, then had to move back to Japan where she relearned everything from scratch it's possible that she'd have better jumps if she was allowed to continue jumping the way she started because she had gotten the 2A quite early.

 

[Seruleane]

We can speculate all we want about how Satoko's jumps might be better if this or that, and how she's such a hard worker to make up for her being "not that talented" (yeah right, ANYONE who gets that far in elite figure skating has to be both talented and hard working to some degree) but it doesn't change the fact that she is under-rotating and prerotating her jumps. The judges should be judging her for what she puts out, not for her effort.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

She said she jumped up to a 2A in texas, then had to move back to Japan where she relearned everything from scratch it's possible that she'd have better jumps if she was allowed to continue jumping the way she started because she had gotten the 2A quite early.

Wow!!! Are you serious? Most people I know that do 2a's are at least 12. I'm assuming she was doing or at least attempting 3t even at that point then. This is crazy!

 

[chloepoco]

I am just constantly amazed how there are so many here who seem to know so much more than the judges, and who have the expertise to spot all the pre and under rotations.

 

[Interspectator]

Wow!!! Are you serious? Most people I know that do 2a's are at least 12. I'm assuming she was doing or at least attempting 3t even at that point then. This is crazy!

If I'm reading correctly, she was 4 when she moved to Texas, trained in the States for 3-4 years while her parents were there for study so was maybe 7-8 when she was landing 2As. Then went back to Japan and had some trouble finding another skating club and learning the jumps again.

For the record, if it wasn't abundantly obvious, I'm a huge Satoko fan. I love her skating style and he rate of improvement. I love her steady edges and effortless spins and spirals. I love her understated way of talking and and interacting and performing. I love how she looks her weaknesses in the face and finds away around them and over them.

I don't love her jumps. -I probably will never love the way she jumps or the scores she gets for them. But since that's just one part of her skating, I can still love Satoko and cheer for her with all my heart.
-The scores are the scores, the performance is the performance, -wise words from Yuzuru Hanyu. :agree:

 

[peg]

She said she jumped up to a 2A in texas, then had to move back to Japan where she relearned everything from scratch it's possible that she'd have better jumps if she was allowed to continue jumping the way she started because she had gotten the 2A quite early.

Wow!!! Are you serious? Most people I know that do 2a's are at least 12. I'm assuming she was doing or at least attempting 3t even at that point then. This is crazy!

And that's precisely why I said earlier that if they had allowed her to jump in her natural direction, they would have thought she had more natural talent. She obviously does have a lot of natural talent, but it took her longer to master jumps doing them against her natural direction. That's hardly surprising

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

For the record, if it wasn't abundantly obvious, I'm a huge Satoko fan. I love her skating style and he rate of improvement. I love her steady edges and effortless spins and spirals. I love her understated way of talking and and interacting and performing. I love how she looks her weaknesses in the face and finds away around them and over them.

I don't love her jumps. -I probably will never love the way she jumps or the scores she gets for them. But since that's just one part of her skating, I can still love Satoko and cheer for her with all my heart.
-The scores are the scores, the performance is the performance, -wise words from Yuzuru Hanyu. :agree:

It's not about them
#CreateYourself

I totally get and agree with everything you're saying.