Skating skills are just one of five components. Her scores on that one component may be deserved, but some of the others aren't, especially when she skates like she did at 4CC.
2016 Four Continents Ladies Free Skate
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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Skating skills are just one of five components. Her scores on that one component may be deserved, but some of the others aren't, especially when she skates like she did at 4CC.
Even when Kaetlyn fell five times at SC, she still put on at least as much of a performance as Gracie did at 4CC.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2013
And did so with such dignity, knowing that getting back to form is a process when in a recovery year. Coming back from almost 2 years of injuries, would feel like a roller coaster for any skater...many would have thought it impossible and quite the sport. As I have said, the mark of a true champion is how you recover from a fall. After Skate Canada, Kaetlyn went on to decent performances at nationals, and showed she was back to compete at 4CC.s. Many here, have suggested that if judges had scored her accordingly, for her well-earned PCS, she would have had a bronze medal.
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You keep forgetting her short program where she had 3 flawed jumps: 3f-to+2t, 3z!, 1a*↓
Only her layback spin got L4; her other spins and footwork were L3 and she placed 11th. Face it: she wasn't going to win a medal when four ladies had 8-10 or more points more than she did after the SP. All of them weren't going to fail miserably. And then there was Gracie Gold, who outscored her in the SP who also had the potential to outscore her in the FS (and did in fact do so).
No. That performance was very hard to watch. She received 6.36 for PE because there really wasn't any performance there---it was an agonizing struggle. Yes, she kept going but I'm not sure it was in her own best interest to do so considering her tendency to become re-injured while in recovery from injury. It was a long time between SC and Nationals before Kaetlyn skated again.
Kaetlyn scored 86 points for her FS at SC. Gracie scored 121.23 points for her FS at 4CC. To say Kaetlyn's SC performance was as good as or better than Gracie's is insulting to both the ISU judges at 4CC and to those at SC.
Are you really that utterly incapable of distinguishing between the technical elements and the performance quality that you would compare scores from a skate with FIVE falls to one with none?
And we've already established that Gracie's PCS are inflated compared to Kaetlyn's (and compared to most non-Russian skaters).
Oh, and she competed again 4 weeks after SC - well before Nationals.
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I watched Satoko's programs live at 4CC in Taipei. To say her jumps are merely 'hops' is a gross exaggeration. While they are not huge (not lot of the ladies jumps are 'huge' tbh) they are not that small that they seem weird or strange - they are actually much better and natural looking in person than they come across on screen.
And I heartily disagree with your comments that ' there is no incentive for skaters to have good jump quality anymore.' In fact, evidence point to the contrary. There is far, FAR LESS incentive to have good skating skills, interpretation and choreography when a skater have good jumps.
How many skaters have been rewarded PCS-wise simply for having superb jumps while visibly having lacking skills across the board in their 2nd score? I'm sure many can name a few right off the bat right now - it's literally the talk of the town the whole of last and this season.
How many programs do we have to sit through where skaters have superb jumps and sloppy skating and bad program choreography?
If there's no incentive for skaters to have good jumps we won't have the likes of Jin Boyang scaring the feck out of everyone else to the point of ppl having to complain about 'too many quads'
There will always be much more incentives for skaters with good jumps. ALWAYS. Judges are always willing to reward the likes of Gracie, Tuktamysheva, Radionova etc when they go clean on jumps AND have less than stellar SS, PE, IN and CH.
And this is apparently fair to some of you because skating is aaaall about the jumps *rolleyes*
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2013
This thread is going nowhere. Sometimes it's best to jump ship even if the waters may seem to still be a bit choppy.
https://instagram.com/p/w5mqhqwZpp/
https://instagram.com/p/w5mqhqwZpp/
Trust me, I would love to jump ship, or at least traverse in calmer waters - but there are people who rock the boat, and then hide their hands.
It's hard to just sit by and watch quietly when that happens.
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How nice to hear this from someone who was actually at the event (I for one, am tired of people stating things, e.g., "her jumps are literally two inches above the ice", etc, as if it's a fact).
Are you really that utterly incapable of distinguishing between the technical elements and the performance quality that you would compare scores from a skate with FIVE falls to one with none?
And we've already established that Gracie's PCS are inflated compared to Kaetlyn's (and compared to most non-Russian skaters).
Oh, and she competed again 4 weeks after SC - well before Nationals.
And who is the "we"---the narrow group of Kaetlyn fans, of course.
Gracie gets high PCS scores because she, like the top Japanese and Russian skaters, has finished in the top 6 at Worlds/Olympics every year since 2013. Kaetlyn was 8th at 2013 Worlds, 13th at the Olympics, and 11th at 2014 Worlds. She had to sit out 2015 Worlds due to a leg fracture and will miss 2016 Worlds, too. It's rather unreasonable to expect Kaetlyn to get the same PCS scores as Gracie when she hasn't achieved the same degree of success at the championship level.
If Kaetlyn competed after SC, it was not an ISU competition.
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Right. Gracie's PCS are based on reputation rather than what she puts out on the ice. That's at least the second time you've stated that in this thread.Thanks for agreeing with me yet again and confirming that you're part of the "we".
(Yeah, I understand that it's so hard for you to admit that you have to make it sound like you're arguing, but I'm not that easily fooled 
)Thanks also for agreeing that Kaetlyn's injuries have affected her results. Since the issue we are debating is whether Kaetlyn at her best is comparable to Gracie at her best, the fact that Kaetlyn has dealt with multiple injuries while Gracie has been pretty much healthy maes those comparisons irrelevant to your argument. Nor does the fact that Kaetlyn has not earned *reputation* marks have anything to do with the *actual* quality of her skating or PCS. All it means is that she hasn't had the opportunity to develop that reputation.
And really, if you're going to try telling me that NHK is not an ISU competition, I'm not going to even waste any more energy on you. Seriously, dude, you've just completely discredited yourself. And I mean completely.
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- Joined
- Jan 27, 2013
Yes, Gracie finished within the top 6 at Worlds, in a watered down field as many of the quality skaters (including Kaetlyn) were not at this competition. If you do not agree with our perspectives perhaps consider the opinions of someone who actually attended the competition in Taipei. Again we are talking PCS and how some skaters were overscored while others under, which affected the final placement.
With special thanks to Oniban...for his superlative reviews yesterday:
On Gracie's LP
"The music is huge and while it does its part to carry her and reach out to the audience, it also feels like it's more than what she can perform. She is a solid athlete but it is quite evident here that she lacks a certain musicality to perform convincingly to this particular piece."
And Kaetlyn's
"Killer step sequence, really can't deny her performance ability and musicality. This girl really gives it.
Also, she has a great rhythm on the ice."
A fresh and genuine perspective is always appreciated, thanks Oniban! Time for me to pack, and move on!
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Right. Gracie's PCS are based on reputation rather than what she puts out on the ice. That's at least the second time you've stated that in this thread.Thanks for agreeing with me yet again and confirming that you're part of the "we".
You do not accept that Gracie has strong skating skills which you refuse to recognize. THAT is why she gets high PCS scores, and why she finishes in the top 6 at Worlds consistently. Skating is not all jumps. Gracie is a great spinner who consistently gets L4 and high GOE on her spins, and on her footwork, too. Gracie has speed, too, which is much better controlled than Kaetlyn's.
It isn't reputation judging, it is judge's recognition of SKATING SKILLS. FYI, the SS mark drives all the other components which follow it. You will never see a SS mark of 6.00 followed by 8s or for that matter a SS mark of 8.00 followed by 6s. That is what is known as the corridor. Gracie HAS the skating skills. For a good skate, she normally gets a SS of 8 with the rest of her PCS in the 8s too. Just because she has a bad day at the rink doesn't mean her skating skills have gone away and now she skates like a novice. Judges KNOW she has the same skating skills she has always had, so her SS mark is not going to drop from 8 down to 6. The judges might drop her SS mark down a notch from 8 to 7.96, but that is about it. The rest of her marks won't be all mid 8s the way they usually are, but maybe high 7s and low 8s---which is what she got at 4CC.
You see ONE competition where Gracie did not skate well, you classify her and her skating skills by that one competition, compare her to Kaetlyn, and declare Kaetlyn the better skater.
If Gracie's skating skills are so bad, how did she manage to finish fourth at Worlds 2015? She was SECOND in the freeskate, beating everyone except Tuktamysheva. How could Gracie have finished fourth at the Olympics while Kaetlyn was 13th? How could Gracie have finished 6th at Worlds 2013 while Kaetlyn with her superior skating skills was 8th?
You know, I completely forgot she competed at NHK---and maybe it's because her performance wasn't memorable:
SP: 3f-to+2t, 3z↓, 2a (8th) 57.07
FS: 3f+2t, 2a+3t, 1z!, 3lo↓, 3f, 3s↓, 2a+2t (7th) 111.41
Gracie was FIFTH. Osmond was SIXTH.
Dude, I'm done with you. I said a number of posts back that Gracie's skating skills scores are deserved and now you're accusing me of refusing to accept that fact? Seriously, WT*??!! And then you say that I'm basing my assessment on only Gracie's worst performance and judging her skating skills on that when I've already acknowledged Gracie's skating skills. That's really disingenuous.
And you repeatedly say that Gracie gets high PCS because of past results, but the minute I agree and point out that that's reputation scoring, you try to deflect by saying she gets high PCS scores because she is strong on ONE of FIVE components. That still means the PCS don't reflect what is being put out on the ice.
Seriously, there's no consistency or logic to your arguments. I could say the exact same thing as you and you would still argue argue with me and throw in a bunch of irrelevant info.
You are STILL not getting that ALL the PCS scores are driven by the skater's Skating Skills. The SS mark sets the base for the rest of the components scores.
As I stated: You will never see a SS mark of 6.00 followed by 8s or for that matter a SS mark of 8.00 followed by 6s.
It is not reputation judging to acknowledge Gracie's strong Skating Skills. If she skates well, her SS mark will be 8.something. If she doesn't jump as well as she usually does, the rest of her skills are still in force, so her SS mark will still be high but perhaps 7.95 instead of 8.something. The other components won't be 8s the way they are when she skates well---they may be mid 7s as they were in the SP or high 7s/low 8s as they were in the FS at 4CC.
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Mao Asada and Anna Pogorilaya still got high PCS scores for bombed programs in the GP for much the same reasons as stated above.
As I stated: You will never see a SS mark of 6.00 followed by 8s or for that matter a SS mark of 8.00 followed by 6s.
It is not reputation judging to acknowledge Gracie's strong Skating Skills. If she skates well, her SS mark will be 8.something. If she doesn't jump as well as she usually does, the rest of her skills are still in force, so her SS mark will still be high but perhaps 7.95 instead of 8.something. The other components won't be 8s the way they are when she skates well---they may be mid 7s as they were in the SP or high 7s/low 8s as they were in the FS at 4CC.
Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, Mao Asada and Anna Pogorilaya still got high PCS scores for bombed programs in the GP for much the same reasons as stated above.
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