The judges seem to disagree with you Elena is always in it. I think Elena sells the heck out of her programs and this short works for her. Kaitlyn is lucky to be leading her at all given her turnout on the jump and her stumble.
Last edited:
2016 Cup of China Ladies SP
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
The judges seem to disagree with you Elena is always in it. I think Elena sells the heck out of her programs and this short works for her. Kaitlyn is lucky to be leading her at all given her turnout on the jump and her stumble.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
ermmm... i have shared it before but i will say it once more...
I was a rika fan for a couple years, culminating with riverdance... went to ACI and my fandom just disintegrated... seeing her live just made it hard for me to like her. The positions, posture, jerky and somewhat slow skating makes it VERY hard for me to like her anymore. When I watch her on tv, it's way less apparent and I want to cheer her on but now, it's like I cannot unsee what I saw at ACI... I think that the UR on the 3T is iffy... when I looked last night, I thought I saw it, and then, 15 minutes later I was no longer sure... but okay... let's add her those 2-3 points for the completed combo, it still doesn't put her in a 70 pointer SP... her PCS are low, and IMHO and YMMV they are correctly placed low because of what she does on the ice. She needs to work a lot on body awareness to be able to show elegance from every angle on the ice.... satoko is a queen in that respect.
Also, the music is too powerful for her skating which doesn't help her... I didn't feel connected to her as an audience member...
I know some people feel differently, and that's fine. I just thought i'd share my experience because it was the first time when my love for a skater really faded away... usually skaters grow on me...
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
That is assuming that a skater performs the same way each outing. This is not true. Ashley was on fire in Skate America, here she was dull. ACI was hardly Rika's best performance, here she was much better. Patrick was much better in performance at Skate Canada than he was here in China in the SP. If elegance is a PCS criteria ( which it isn't) then Elena and Elizaveta should also get low PCS and Satoko would always be scored through the roof. I don't think Rika should get 70 for her performance. I think 68-69 is good for her program. --As I said, small scoring differences MATTER in Ladies skating.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
i agree that performances vary. But what I summarized as elegance is actually a factor in figure skating scoring... because it has to do with skating skills... how well balanced is the body, how centered and extended are the positions... etc.. I agree that Elena and Liza also have issues but they are not of the same order IMHO.
Rika has way more choreography than Liza for instance. Rika's programs are more intricate and packed. However, if he is slowing down in order to control the blade work, when it is known that great skaters will retain speed through those, then her intricate programs may do her a disservice.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Sure, but if these arguments justify a low score for Rika then the same can be said about almost any other skater with 'refinement' problems, the point is that these guidelines are not being applied evenly to the skaters. Ashley was slow, did two footed skating, was off balance a lot of the time and got 33 points in PCS. Rika was not slow this time, while she was certainly slow at Autumn Classic.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2016
soooo true!!!
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
sigh... i don't disagree that Ashley got gifted one... it tends to happen to some of the top skaters... not all... and sure, I agree, Rika is not the recipient of such favours...
My posts were not aimed at discussing ranking and who got gifted or not... but more as an explanation why we may never see Rika get the points she needs to be at the top, until she fixes these aspects of her skating.... People forget that when a skater first bursts onto the world scene, landing 3-3 and being consistent, the judges are welcoming quite often... a lot of style issues are forgiven, especially with younger skaters.. but after 2-3 years, the small things that were bugging the eyes can become bigger and bigger... in some ways, Liza is going through this as well... when she won worlds, she had a great season. A lot of people were complaining about lack of choreo etc... but it wasn't reflected in her scores much... it is now... and rightfully so.
My posts were not aimed at discussing ranking and who got gifted or not... but more as an explanation why we may never see Rika get the points she needs to be at the top, until she fixes these aspects of her skating.... People forget that when a skater first bursts onto the world scene, landing 3-3 and being consistent, the judges are welcoming quite often... a lot of style issues are forgiven, especially with younger skaters.. but after 2-3 years, the small things that were bugging the eyes can become bigger and bigger... in some ways, Liza is going through this as well... when she won worlds, she had a great season. A lot of people were complaining about lack of choreo etc... but it wasn't reflected in her scores much... it is now... and rightfully so.
First, Kaetlyn doesn't have a lot of strong international results to speak of. I know she's been injured/ recovering the past 2 seasons, but that's just the way it is. The other skaters I mentioned have all been at least in the top 5 at Worlds or the Olympics with strong performances (and everyone except Gracie has been on the podium at Worlds). I agree that consistency PCS is not as much of a thing in the sense that one doesn't have to do lots of clean programs in a row in order to get it. But the skaters generally must have shown that they are capable of doing strong programs at big international competitions in order to receive the highest component marks. So, when someone like Gracie skated well in Boston, she got very high component marks in part because she was an American skating at home, but in part because the judges knew that she could skate at a high level when it counted (e.g., Sochi). That happened despite Gracie's inconsistencies because she had shown her potential previously. The others I mentioned have shown the same thing. Kaetlyn is, as yet, unproven in this regard. She doesn't even have one really strong performance at a big event (GPF, Worlds, Olympics, even 4CC). But she still has been receiving some of the highest PCS. And yes, we can agree to disagree about whether the system is okay. I don't think it's outrageous for judges to want to know that they aren't watching a fluke performance before throwing out high 8s and 9s for PCS.
Second, I disagree with Adelina's 2014 PCS on principle. She should've been scored about 5 points lower in the long and 3 points lower in the short. And, even when she'd skated semi-clean programs that season, her PCS were nowhere near what they were in Sochi (74.41 PCS, 149.95 total): 2014 Euros (69.6 PCS, 131.63 total), 2013 TEB (64.65 PCS, 129.8 total). Even at Russian Nationals with inflation out the wazoo, she got 73.38 for a program that had one small step out on the back end of a 3Lz-3Lo combo. She should've gotten lower components because she isn't as good of a skater as Carolina, Yuna, and Mao. And she didn't magically become one just because she hit almost all of her jumps in front of a home crowd.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Then we mostly agree I guess.
I don't want Rika overscored or underscored. I want her scored right. (though it is still just my opinion.) I'd put her in 3rd or 4th place, tying with Mai or about the same as Radionova. Instead, she's in 6th place, and she must feel awful about it.
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
i don't think she does... one thing Rika has is a competitive drive. let's see if she brings it on tonight but honestly, it starts in 5.5 hours and i haven't slept last night... so i think i am headed for a big night of sleep.... i hope ladies skate well but moreover, i hope the men do a better job... i think they will... the SP is so stressful for men as it requires them to land ALL their trickiest jumps, 3A, quad, combo.... for ladies, the solo jump is often the comfy one, the 2A is an easier jump for most, and of course, the combo is the big deal... but i find that we tend to get better SP for ladies, while we get better LPs for men... anyways... i am exhausted... sorry for rambling and thanks for the civilized conversation. As you said, we agree on a lot of things...
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Good night. More ranting to come after the FS.
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2014
Osmond has joined the upper echelon of the ladies and unfortunately for her fans, that comes with increased scrutiny like all skaters in that realm for all disciplines are under. And as is expected for virtually every upper-tier skater, people will criticize Katelyn's federations for inflation. How many times have we heard accusations of the Russian federation cheating or the US propping up their skaters? Newsflash: Canada isn't exempt.
I also don't understand this whole victim complex that so many fans of certain countries have, namely those from Canada and Russia. I've observed quite often on several boards and social media that many criticisms thrown at skaters from these countries tend to elicit a reaction of anti-[insert country] sentiment. "Oh, you think Katelyn is overscored? You must hate Canada!" "You think Medvedeva's jump technique is terrible? Looks like we have an anti-Russian here!"
It's funny because I don't recall any American claim that someone is anti-USA because they say Ashley has no transitions in her program or that the Shibutanis are boring. As someone who grew up in Norway and was subjected to the "USA! USA! USA! LET'S GO POUND SOME FOUR LOKO AND FLIP SOME BURGERS AS WE WAVE OUR AMERICAN FLAG ON THE FOURTH OF JULY!" nonsense, it's kind of fascinating to see that Americans tend to be the least patriotic ubers across several international sports.
On the other hand, Russians and Canadians tend to back their skaters with complete fervor. How many times have we seen an American Gracie fan throw Ashley under the bus? Or a Shibs superfan hate on Chock & Bates? It's quite rare to see a Russian or a Canadian bash one of their own in favor of a personal favorite.
Sorry for the off-topic post. It was just an interesting observation.
I also don't understand this whole victim complex that so many fans of certain countries have, namely those from Canada and Russia. I've observed quite often on several boards and social media that many criticisms thrown at skaters from these countries tend to elicit a reaction of anti-[insert country] sentiment. "Oh, you think Katelyn is overscored? You must hate Canada!" "You think Medvedeva's jump technique is terrible? Looks like we have an anti-Russian here!"
It's funny because I don't recall any American claim that someone is anti-USA because they say Ashley has no transitions in her program or that the Shibutanis are boring. As someone who grew up in Norway and was subjected to the "USA! USA! USA! LET'S GO POUND SOME FOUR LOKO AND FLIP SOME BURGERS AS WE WAVE OUR AMERICAN FLAG ON THE FOURTH OF JULY!" nonsense, it's kind of fascinating to see that Americans tend to be the least patriotic ubers across several international sports.
On the other hand, Russians and Canadians tend to back their skaters with complete fervor. How many times have we seen an American Gracie fan throw Ashley under the bus? Or a Shibs superfan hate on Chock & Bates? It's quite rare to see a Russian or a Canadian bash one of their own in favor of a personal favorite.
Sorry for the off-topic post. It was just an interesting observation.
Scores should be allotted by what happens on that day, not based on past history/reputation. Is it any wonder some people argue figure skating is not a sport?
"Sorry bobsled team. We know you got to the bottom faster, but the other teams did it quicker all season."
"Sorry bobsled team. We know you got to the bottom faster, but the other teams did it quicker all season."
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
I was playing around with the PCS scores for this event and I thought I should share some of the tables that I generated for fun.
It has been noted before, but the Australian judges really have very different tastes compared to the other judges.
Here's a table of the pairwise correlation for all the PCS scores given by the judges.
http://i.imgur.com/1vyQDha.png
She seems to like the other two Chinese ladies but not Zijun and doesn't really like the Russians either.
Here's another table for the raw total scores given to each skater by each judge with the final unfactored scores (last column):
http://i.imgur.com/pQenR3M.png
and also their rankings with the final PCS rankings (last column):
http://i.imgur.com/pgbg4MO.png
It has been noted before, but the Australian judges really have very different tastes compared to the other judges.
Here's a table of the pairwise correlation for all the PCS scores given by the judges.
http://i.imgur.com/1vyQDha.png
She seems to like the other two Chinese ladies but not Zijun and doesn't really like the Russians either.
Here's another table for the raw total scores given to each skater by each judge with the final unfactored scores (last column):
http://i.imgur.com/pQenR3M.png
and also their rankings with the final PCS rankings (last column):
http://i.imgur.com/pgbg4MO.png
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
Osmond has joined the upper echelon of the ladies and unfortunately for her fans, that comes with increased scrutiny like all skaters in that realm for all disciplines are under. And as is expected for virtually every upper-tier skater, people will criticize Katelyn's federations for inflation. How many times have we heard accusations of the Russian federation cheating or the US propping up their skaters? Newsflash: Canada isn't exempt.
I also don't understand this whole victim complex that so many fans of certain countries have, namely those from Canada and Russia. I've observed quite often on several boards and social media that many criticisms thrown at skaters from these countries tend to elicit a reaction of anti-[insert country] sentiment. "Oh, you think Katelyn is overscored? You must hate Canada!" "You think Medvedeva's jump technique is terrible? Looks like we have an anti-Russian here!"
It's funny because I don't recall any American claim that someone is anti-USA because they say Ashley has no transitions in her program or that the Shibutanis are boring. As someone who grew up in Norway and was subjected to the "USA! USA! USA! LET'S GO POUND SOME FOUR LOKO AND FLIP SOME BURGERS AS WE WAVE OUR AMERICAN FLAG ON THE FOURTH OF JULY!" nonsense, it's kind of fascinating to see that Americans tend to be the least patriotic ubers across several international sports.
On the other hand, Russians and Canadians tend to back their skaters with complete fervor. How many times have we seen an American Gracie fan throw Ashley under the bus? Or a Shibs superfan hate on Chock & Bates? It's quite rare to see a Russian or a Canadian bash one of their own in favor of a personal favorite.
Sorry for the off-topic post. It was just an interesting observation.
This is verrrry interesting, and I would actually agree. Rather than use specific countries, I have noticed that when a skater does not do well, many posters will say "It is the Great Anti-MyCountry Eville Konspiracy!" and "call out" Judge So-And-So from OtherCountry, as though that is proof of the Great Anti-MyCountry Eville Konspiracy.
But as I have said in the past, if I took every anti-Jason comment as some anti-American Konspiracy, I'd have to be building me some big old wall to keep out the conspirators.
With all this chatter, I actually watched Kaetlyn's skate. Looked like a winner to me. But what do I know, being part of the great North American Konspiracy
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2003
While this is all true, those of us who have been around for a while would remember KO has faced considerably more scrutiny than most up and comers ever since she turned senior. As a new skater on the block back in 2012-2013, she has enjoyed unfairly harsh criticism regarding overscoring especially after beating Akio Suzuki at Skate Canada, and was never really given the benefit of the doubt like skaters similar to her age or experience.Osmond has joined the upper echelon of the ladies and unfortunately for her fans, that comes with increased scrutiny like all skaters in that realm for all disciplines are under. And as is expected for virtually every upper-tier skater, people will criticize Katelyn's federations for inflation. How many times have we heard accusations of the Russian federation cheating or the US propping up their skaters? Newsflash: Canada isn't exempt.
I also don't understand this whole victim complex that so many fans of certain countries have, namely those from Canada and Russia. I've observed quite often on several boards and social media that many criticisms thrown at skaters from these countries tend to elicit a reaction of anti-[insert country] sentiment. "Oh, you think Katelyn is overscored? You must hate Canada!" "You think Medvedeva's jump technique is terrible? Looks like we have an anti-Russian here!"
It's funny because I don't recall any American claim that someone is anti-USA because they say Ashley has no transitions in her program or that the Shibutanis are boring. As someone who grew up in Norway and was subjected to the "USA! USA! USA! LET'S GO POUND SOME FOUR LOKO AND FLIP SOME BURGERS AS WE WAVE OUR AMERICAN FLAG ON THE FOURTH OF JULY!" nonsense, it's kind of fascinating to see that Americans tend to be the least patriotic ubers across several international sports.
On the other hand, Russians and Canadians tend to back their skaters with complete fervor. How many times have we seen an American Gracie fan throw Ashley under the bus? Or a Shibs superfan hate on Chock & Bates? It's quite rare to see a Russian or a Canadian bash one of their own in favor of a personal favorite.
Sorry for the off-topic post. It was just an interesting observation.
topic:Not sure I agree about it being central Canadian (translating "east coast" from the Western Cdn perspective)... I realized when I visited home while I lived in the US that while Ontario is ground zero for "eh", my family and friends on the west coast used it more than I ever realized.here's the official page on "eh" in the Canadian encyclopedia.....with obligatory "Doug and Bob MacKenzie" video clip, naturally...
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/eh/
And while "right" is one of the things that could replace it, linguists have found 10 different and varied usages....(trying to keep up with the number of different flavours of irony in Canadian speech......
)Sadly, "eh" is reportedly declining in use among the younger and more educated....but in its place there is a lot of "up talking" at the end of sentences that can cover many of the same meanings.
Back to the thread....
I notice that Kaetlyn's Newfoundland English (whole separate history there as they only joined Canada in 1949) has absorbed a good deal of Alberta English (also somewhat different due to the American immigration from Nebraska and other states...).....Encourage her new fans to listen and explore...
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
For the most part, I think that does happen. Think about the NCAA Basketball Brackets. The teams are seeded based on the way they have performed all year up the beginning of the event. There's no to way to predict that a "Cinderalla Story" performance like the one that Sarah Hughes gave in 2002 would have beaten the defending World Champion Michelle Kwan. Especially since Michelle was leading going into the Free Program and Sarah was in 4th. Also, remember that going into the event, it was Maria Butyrskaya who was the European Champion and along with Irina Slutskaya, were both ranked higher than Sarah before the event began. It was very complicated as the top 6 had all defeated each other at point in their careers including Sarah's Bronze at World's to Maria placing 4th at the same event. Both finished behind Irina and gold medalist Michelle. It was very complicated going into the event. But, I don't think most fans predicted a victory for Sarah.
Last edited:
Similar threads
