2018 US Championships Sr. Ladies SP

[yoloaxel]

She is not creating the narrative. She is being propped up into the narrative that preexists that favors someone in her stead. It is not her fault at all. But she inherently benefits from it.

That, compounded in her great consistency which we only saw flashes from, from Gracie Gold, is giving people a savior complex. US Figure Skating REALLY wants their next Dorothy Hamill or Michelle Kwan, that they won’t allow her to be her own Bradie Tennell.

Or MAYBE US figure skating want someone who's finally consistent and can rotate all their jumps and are ready to reward that technical consistency. Why should they give an extra bonus to skaters who simply haven't performed well all season and didn't skate clean at Nats either? Federation put their money on winning horses, and rightly so. It's a sport, after all.

 

[Globetrotter]

“Face and sass” have nothing to do with the arguments being presented. Her SS and TR, while be it a tad bit lower than I would have marked, are nothing to really qualm about. Those are her weaker categories. It is the other 3 PCS scores that were scored lower than they would have been scored internationally, which is the frustrating part.

Hip Hip Chin Chin is a program that requires OTT flair, so you need to show face and sass to make it believable.

Glad that someone actually made that connection

I too agree that despite the mistake, Ashley never gave up on the programme and the sass and OTT facial expressions IMO really do match what the Hip Hip Chin Chin music is about. I do think she deserves slightly higher in PE and IN, about 8.75. However, it was also clear that she was not her usual self and as expected, her relative weakness in SS showed up when she is nervous. I think the SS score of 8 was pretty generous. I would give both Bradie and her only mid 7s (7.5 Bradie to 7.75 for Ashley) max for that. None of the current US girls have any form of SS to crow about really (still miss the good old bladework of MKwan). Karen Chen is possibly the most accomplished here without Gracie Gold being in the mix. Overall, I will think that Ashley's PCS should total ~ 33.25 and Bradie about 31 max.

 

[TCAngel18]

Or MAYBE US figure skating want someone who's finally consistent and can rotate all their jumps and are ready to reward that technical consistency. Why should they give an extra bonus to skaters who simply haven't performed well all season and didn't skate clean at Nats either? Federation put their money on winning horses, and rightly so. It's a sport, after all.

Because Bradie Tennell is not a horse, she is a 19 year old figure skating girl.

I get your point, but they aren’t going the right away about it. Anointing isn’t supportive, it’s counterproductive. Her consistency should definitely be rewarded, but only in the categories that are reflective of the work being represented.

 

[TCAngel18]

Or MAYBE US figure skating want someone who's finally consistent and can rotate all their jumps and are ready to reward that technical consistency. Why should they give an extra bonus to skaters who simply haven't performed well all season and didn't skate clean at Nats either? Federation put their money on winning horses, and rightly so. It's a sport, after all.

Sorry for jumping on horse, it just felt a little cold.

 

[yoloaxel]

Because Bradie Tennell is not a horse, she is a 19 year old figure skating girl.

I get your point, but they aren’t going the right away about it. Anointing isn’t supportive, it’s counterproductive. Her consistency should definitely be rewarded, but only in the categories that are reflective of the work being represented.

I agree that she shouldn't be rewarded where there's no need to, but her PCS averages were all low 8s and a 7, it's not like they suddenly gave her all 9s and 10s. I think I would have given Mirai higher SS and just slightly higher Performance. Ashley got all 8s and a high 7 in Transitions, which I think it's fair for what she has delivered last night - we know she's capable of much, much better skates. I hope her FS will be one of those.

 

[schizoanalyst]

Or MAYBE US figure skating want someone who's finally consistent and can rotate all their jumps and are ready to reward that technical consistency. Why should they give an extra bonus to skaters who simply haven't performed well all season and didn't skate clean at Nats either? Federation put their money on winning horses, and rightly so. It's a sport, after all.

Well, they are likely putting money on a 8th place horse …

I don’t much care about whose named to the US Olympic team tbh - but it strikes me as silly to inflate the score of her mediocre performance to give her a cushion in the free. If she's so consistent, she doesn't need the false cushion anyway.

 

[TCAngel18]

Well, they are likely putting money on a 8th place horse …

I don’t much care about whose named to the US Olympic team tbh - but it strikes me as silly to inflate the score of her mediocre performance to give her a cushion in the free. If she's so consistent, she doesn't need the false cushion anyway.

There we go, false cushion. I was trying to come up with a descriptor, and that works nicely!

 

[yoloaxel]

Well, they are likely putting money on a 8th place horse …

I don’t much care about whose named to the US Olympic team tbh - but it strikes me as silly to inflate the score of her mediocre performance to give her a cushion in the free. If she's so consistent, she doesn't need the false cushion anyway.

I mean, is Bradie going to win an Olympic medal? 99.9% no. Is she the US lady who currently has the potential to be scored the highest internationally? I think so, and the stats seem to agree.

Look, I don't think she's an incredible skater (yet). But I do think giving her low 8s and high 7s in PCS is not a crazy overscore, especially considering it's a national competition. That's all I'm saying

 

[TCAngel18]

I agree that she shouldn't be rewarded where there's no need to, but her PCS averages were all low 8s and a 7, it's not like they suddenly gave her all 9s and 10s. I think I would have given Mirai higher SS and just slightly higher Performance. Ashley got all 8s and a high 7 in Transitions, which I think it's fair for what she has delivered last night - we know she's capable of much, much better skates. I hope her FS will be one of those.

Technically, yes, but PCS wise, she was pretty strong. (Obv minus the TR LOL).

IMO, it should have been this for PCS.

Ashley-34.5
Mirai-32.5
Karen-32 (her stumble I feel took the wind out of her sails for the next few elements, albeit she did get back on track nicely)
Angela-32
Bradie-31

This gives us a raw total of
Mirai-74.5
Bradie-72
Angela-68.5
Ashley-67.5
Karen-67.5

You can flip flop Ashley and Karen, that’s fine, but scores should be VERY close.

It works better for Mirai’s mindset to chase, and not be chased, so I am ok w her being in 2nd, but the rest still stands.

 

[klutzy]

It’s not Bradie’s Fault at all that this moniker has been attached to her, but we have to recognize what is.

This is a narrative that USF has shown multiple times in the past that they believe they should use to cultivate a winner. The “pretty girls in pretty boxes” mentality. I’m probably screwing that up LOL.

The fact that gets in people’s craw that this is being cultivated, and not allowed to happen organically.

I would go so far as to say this mentality probably stems from a heteronormative, Patriarchically (not a word) conservative background, that wants their men strong and powerful, with dark hair and brooding Eyes, and their ladies demure and sweet, with blond hair and a bright smile.

When people, as skaters, challenge that status quo, it subconsciously causes dissension.

You do realize that there have been a wide variety of U.S. Lady champions at this point? That the all-time princess--Peggy Fleming--was dark-haired; that the queen of figure-skating--Michelle Kwan--was Asian. Kristi Yamaguchi and Debi Thomas were both world champions from the U.S. who didn't fit the white princess mold. That Michelle Kwan was vastly preferred by the skating federation to Nicole Bobek, who really did have the golden girl look.

In other words, the perception of the skating world is about 40 years out of date.

Bradie's not being pushed because she fits a princess stereotype, but because she outscored every other American woman this season and did so *reliably*--the U.S. is desperate for a skater with consistency0. *NONE* of the others have shown that they are--not Mirai with her triple axels, not Ashley with her verve or Karen with her grace.

What we saw tonight is what we've been seeing at international competitions--Bradie delivers clean programs and the others have moments of shining, but they make visible mistaks.

Will Bradie be packaged, if she wins, as some sort of America's sweetheart? Yes. So will *any* woman who wins the U.S. championship in an Olympic year. So will Mirai if she wins. Or Karen Chen.

 

[klutzy]

There we go, false cushion. I was trying to come up with a descriptor, and that works nicely!

What "false cushion"? Bradie and Mirai are less than a point apart--the winner of the FS will be the winner. And, for that matter, the top six are all within 10 points of one another.

 

[Kittosuni]

Its pretty clear judges really leveled the PCS of others to Bradie that's why some skaters who even get higher PCS internationally suddenly got lower here.

Its just unrealistic right now for Bradie to get 33-35 PCS that is why no one got that too. I even think that 31 is even generous.

One thing is for sure though, USFS is finally getting what Russia has been doing. Pushed the skaters who can rotate and land their jumps.

 

[schizoanalyst]

I mean, is Bradie going to win an Olympic medal? 99.9% no. Is she the US lady who currently has the potential to be scored the highest internationally? I think so, and the stats seem to agree.

Look, I don't think she's an incredible skater (yet). But I do think giving her low 8s and high 7s in PCS is not a crazy overscore, especially considering it's a national competition. That's all I'm saying

I appreciate your perspective definitely. I think Tennell's nationals inflation is fine - I personally wouldn't have any of these women break 70, but I know Nationals scores are goofy. But the real problem is Wagner's PCS doesn't make sense at a National's competition. Wagner's PCS is lower than international PCS she has gotten for *worse* performances, even this season. This just doesn't happen at a Nationals and seems deliberate. Why, I make no speculation since my assumption was they would prop Wagner up because of her position with sponsors but that PCS deviation didn't happen by accident.

 

[TCAngel18]

You do realize that there have been a wide variety of U.S. Lady champions at this point? That the all-time princess--Peggy Fleming--was dark-haired; that the queen of figure-skating--Michelle Kwan--was Asian. Kristi Yamaguchi and Debi Thomas were both world champions from the U.S. who didn't fit the white princess mold. That Michelle Kwan was vastly preferred by the skating federation to Nicole Bobek, who really did have the golden girl look.

In other words, the perception of the skating world is about 40 years out of date.

Bradie's not being pushed because she fits a princess stereotype, but because she outscored every other American woman this season and did so *reliably*--the U.S. is desperate for a skater with consistency0. *NONE* of the others have shown that they are--not Mirai with her triple axels, not Ashley with her verve or Karen with her grace.

What we saw tonight is what we've been seeing at international competitions--Bradie delivers clean programs and the others have moments of shining, but they make visible mistaks.

Will Bradie be packaged, if she wins, as some sort of America's sweetheart? Yes. So will *any* woman who wins the U.S. championship in an Olympic year. So will Mirai if she wins. Or Karen Chen.

Not necessarily all look, but some plays into it.

Most of the above skaters had certain dialogue attached to them, that wasn’t Princess. They were all beautiful, strong skaters. Maybe the word was grit, maybe it was perseverance, determined, strong, you name it.

IT SHOULDNT be this way, but if we enter the Olympic Games with Mirai or Karen as our champion, they won’t call her America’s Sweetheart. It will be endearing and supportive, but those slight, sometimes unnoticeable changes will be seen.

I really didn’t want to turn this into a racial narrative, because a good chunk of it doesn’t have to do with race at all. It’s the overall packaging of the skater.

 

[TCAngel18]

I appreciate your perspective definitely. I think Tennell's nationals inflation is fine - I personally wouldn't have any of these women break 70, but I know Nationals scores are goofy. But the real problem is Wagner's PCS doesn't make sense at a National's competition. Wagner's PCS is lower than international PCS she has gotten for *worse* performances, even this season. This just doesn't happen at a Nationals and seems deliberate. Why, I make no speculation since my assumption was they would prop Wagner up because of her position with sponsors but that PCS deviation didn't happen by accident.

That’s my biggest frustration. It’s not relative, and it’s purposeful.

 

[ask]

You obviously have issues with reading comprehension. So, I will try to express my point again.

I did not claim that the other girls were terrible or that I did not like them. I do. They had promise. Bradie has promise. The other girls did not live up to their promise. I hope Bradie does. I just feel that PCS and TES should reflect actual strengths and weaknesses. They did not in this competition. I don't think Ashley should be first or even third ( I would have Mirai, Bradie and then Angela Wang 1,2,3) but a more accurate PCS score would be Bradly at around 30 (higher than she gets in international competition) and Ashley at 33/34 (she gets higher than this in international competition). I don't think this is a USF conspiracy just rather bad judging/ over excitement at a new prospect.

You are claiming Ashley's results have only come from the support of the USF. I was merely pointing out by using facts (which all of your posts completely lack) that the USF has not actively supported her. She had moderate success due to her own efforts. She is also responsible for not addressing her nerves in competition. If she had, she would have a higher score today because her 3F+3T has been landed full rotated in practice all week but was not today. Her fault, not a USF conspiracy.

I don't think the USF has actively supported or not-supported Ashley. It has depended on the situation and the year. But, don't pretend that all her results come only from federation support there is no evidence of that. I was responding to your hatred/lack of objectively not trying to pretend Ashley is the best skater in the world. Ashley is not my favorite skater nor my least favorite but I see both her positive and negative qualities. Just stop being so petty and hate filled.

You are creating a catch 22 scenario. You said ashley's pcs is lower than her previous best. Her previous best is based on her being usa #1. Ashley never had the skills or the transitions to be in the 33-34 pcs range. She got it due to the support from her fed. Now that she is not usa #1, she is getting what she actually put out. Just because she was always scored inflated score doesn't mean she is getting the wrong score today.

That is my point all along. Some people are going nuts and claiming she is hosed. Really, if you score her correctly, her loop wouldnt get even get such GOE. And her PCS would never be so high. Ever.

And if the usf didn't actively support her, she would be sitting at home in 2014. So ungrateful to even mutter that usf didn't support her.

 

[Mathman]

IIRC, he was at the center of Russian outrage for emails he sent out prior to Vancouver to a bunch of judges and friends basically subtweeting Plushenko claiming he should have poor component scores.

In Joe Inman's defense, he thought that Plushenko should receive poor Transition scores because Plushenko did not have any transitions. Plushenko himself had earlier quipped about Brian Joubert, "How can Joubert get such good transition scores. He has the same transitions as I do: none."

Inman is being consistent. He is pretty demanding that skaters must earn their PCS. As a pianist and piano teacher, Inman is especially hard-nosed when it comes to musical interpretation.

 

[TCAngel18]

In Joe Inman's defense, he ought that Plushenko should receive poor Transition scores because Plushenko did not have any transitions. Plushenko himself had earlier quipped about Brian Joubert, "How can Joubert get such good transition scores. He has the same transitions as I do: none."

Inman is being consistent. He is pretty demanding that skaters must earn their PCS. As a pianist and piano teacher, Inman is especially hard-nosed when it comes to musical interpretation.

He was inconsistent though, unfortunately. His scoring was only off the corridor for the top 7 positions. Perhaps he was really trying to hammer it home to the best skaters, that they really have to give 110 percent, but I would have hoped that hard nosed attitude would have been from positions 1-22, not just 1-7.

 

[Zhenya is DIVINE]

Bradie's PCS are too high, Nationals inflation or no. Just because she rotates her triples does not make her a watchable skater. :noshake: She has a loooong way to go there and considering she is almost 20, it might not even be something that is ever reasonably attainable. Whoever called her a more boring Kimmie Meissner is right on point. I remember Bradie being just as consistent two seasons ago and even turning in a stellar Nationals performance. But it wasn't exciting then and it's not exciting now. I would say the Federation is backing the wrong horse, but let's face it--the stable is rather empty at the moment.

I am quite surprised to see Wagner being dropped here. Even though HHCC is pretty stale, it was well-performed and PCS have always been Ashley's saving grace. The fact that it wasn't here is not subtle and not a coincidence. She will have to earn that Olympic spot this time.

I have been stanning Mirai for over a decade now and just once I wish it wasn't so frustrating! :disapp: Gorgeous 3As all week and even in warm-up and then the one when it counted was a bit of a mess. Sigh. But I am cautiously optimistic about her chances to make the team. I just hope she can finally have her moment and deliver a great performance. (Even when she won her National title, it was with a fall.)

Thankfully we have USFSA's awkward politicking to discuss, because I don't know how a lot of those girls even made it to Nationals. It was sad. :sad21:

I will say Angela, Polina, and Amber were all bright spots out there. Even Mariah was rather enjoyable.

Karen's skating is quite lovely and refined. I certainly haven't forgotten that she's mainly the reason we have 3 Olympic spots. I really would enjoy seeing her with one of them.

 

[lavoix]

What a splatfest of a competition! What has been happening with US girls in skating?

Braddie is a lock for the Olympics in my opinion.

Mirai just needs to not fall and she's got her ticket as well. The judges are obviously supporting her because that routine would probably get below 65 in international competitions.

Karen is a lovely skater with the wrong programs. And here I must say that apart from Wagner, everyone has pretty crap music and routines.

Does Wagner even have a shot at the podium anymore??? I just don't see her going to the Olympics anymore.