Men - Free Program

[Justafan]

Beautiful skate from Takahashi. I very much enjoyed it.

I agree..I love to watch him skate...he is just SO into it.

 

[Justafan]

Why don't we ask Sandu about that.

Sandu is his own worst enemy. He has the chops, he just always lets the first mistake live in his head the rest of the program. Pity because he is so talented.
I think with Johnny it boils down more to training, commitment and settling for less than what he is capable of.

 

[Zuranthium]

Takahashi beat Joubert by 6 points in the long. Given he was so far back after the short I don't think that he did deserve to win the whole thing even though Joubert was lack luster, he was clean.

Takahashi shouldn't have been so far back in the short, though. Once again, the unfairness of the "downgraded jump" came into play. His 3Toe in combination for the short program had a slight cheat but he got 0 points for it after being saddled with an unfairly high negative GOE and the actual value of the jump being reduced to 1.3 points. He would have received more points for doing a simple double toeloop instead. Obviously, that's quite ridiculous and CoP needs to assign actual median values to downgraded jumps rather than simply docking them completely and giving the skater absolutely no credit for their extra effort.

Also, Takahashi's 3Lutz deserved a higher GOE bonus and Joubert's PCS shouldn't have been quite as high. When you take all of these things into consideration, Takahashi should not have been so far behind in the Short and deserved to edge out Joubert for the Gold.

~Z

 

[Hsuhs]

Sandhu is another skater / person. I don't know much about him. There's a lot of skaters out there.

 

[Hsuhs]

I've been thinking - why not get rid of PCS? They could have just 3 categories, instead: "I like him" (+1), "I don't like him" (--1), "I'm neutral on him" (0).

Wouldn't the results be pretty much the same? And it would be so much easier for us, fans, to interpret the outcomes.

 

[krenseby]

Takahashi shouldn't have been so far back in the short, though. Once again, the unfairness of the "downgraded jump" came into play. His 3Toe in combination for the short program had a slight cheat but he got 0 points for it after being saddled with an unfairly high negative GOE and the actual value of the jump being reduced to 1.3 points. He would have received more points for doing a simple double toeloop instead. Obviously, that's quite ridiculous and CoP needs to assign actual median values to downgraded jumps rather than simply docking them completely and giving the skater absolutely no credit for their extra effort.

Also, Takahashi's 3Lutz deserved a higher GOE bonus and Joubert's PCS shouldn't have been quite as high. When you take all of these things into consideration, Takahashi should not have been so far behind in the Short and deserved to edge out Joubert for the Gold.

~Z

Your argument is very convincing. I am ready to consider the "Takanahashi was robbed" possibility.

 

[Vodka Shot]

Takahashi shouldn't have been so far back in the short, though. Once again, the unfairness of the "downgraded jump" came into play. His 3Toe in combination for the short program had a slight cheat but he got 0 points for it after being saddled with an unfairly high negative GOE and the actual value of the jump being reduced to 1.3 points. He would have received more points for doing a simple double toeloop instead. Obviously, that's quite ridiculous and CoP needs to assign actual median values to downgraded jumps rather than simply docking them completely and giving the skater absolutely no credit for their extra effort.

Also, Takahashi's 3Lutz deserved a higher GOE bonus and Joubert's PCS shouldn't have been quite as high. When you take all of these things into consideration, Takahashi should not have been so far behind in the Short and deserved to edge out Joubert for the Gold.

~Z

ITA also when you consider that Takahashi is a figure skater and not an ice jumper that should have edged him up to beat Joubert, who is a great ice jumper but a mediocre figure skater IMO. I could have choreographed that LP of his. My 7 yr old cousin could have choreographed that LP of his. In fact there wasn't any choreography in that LP was there?

 

[Tonichelle]

totally going in a different direction of the last couple of pages of comments but I finally got to see Stephanes LP and I LOVE the second half... the first half I was sitting there going 'ok so why was everyone gushing' (yes he has beautiful line and grace and is so quiet on the ice... but we see that in all his programs) but that second half really packs a punch...

and he is one HOT new 'romantic lead'

 

[Zuranthium]

Dick Button was off in saying that Stephane was just a "wild teenager" up until this point, though. He showed ample gravitas and artistry last year too.

~Z

 

[amber68]

I am probably the only one not impressed by Stephane program. Yes it was nicely choreographed but there was no flamenco feeling to it .
To me the best program of the night belonged to Verner. Lots of energy and presence on ice.

 

[bekalc]

I disagree with the idea that a skater shouldn't be docked big time for a downgraded jumps. A downgraded jump is a bad jump...It's just as bad if not worse as falling on a jump etc..

 

[Zuranthium]

I am probably the only one not impressed by Stephane program. Yes it was nicely choreographed but there was no flamenco feeling to it.

You're basically saying, "yes this Dinner was amazing but there was no asparagus in it - BOOO". Who the hell cares. He is a unique, brilliant performer. His programs have a mystical feeling about them - full of longing and wonderment. I'm quite happy that he didn't cut the music in such a way that the predictable Spanish themes are highlighted. Artists create, not imitate, and Stephane is an artist.

~Z

I disagree with the idea that a skater shouldn't be docked big time for a downgraded jumps. A downgraded jump is a bad jump...It's just as bad if not worse as falling on a jump etc..

FACT - An underrotated Triple is harder to do than a Double. Think about that and come up with a valid reason as to why a more difficult element does not deserve to be worth more than an easier element.

Also think about how laughable this concept is: skater A misses the full rotation on their Quad by an 1/8th of a turn but lands it cleanly. They get 4 points. Skater B gets that extra 1/8th of a turn in but falls on their butt. They get 5 points.

~Z

 

[bekalc]

FACT - An underrotated Triple is harder to do than a Double. Think about that and come up with a valid reason as to why a more difficult element does not deserve to be worth more than an easier element.

Also think about how laughable this concept is: skater A misses the full rotation on their Quad by an 1/8th of a turn but lands it cleanly. They get 4 points. Skater B gets that extra 1/8th of a turn in but falls on their butt. They get 5 points.

~Z

Well, perhaps the point is that if the skater went for that extra 1/8th of a turn, like they were suppose to do to get the points, they'd fall on their butts too..

 

[Jaana]

Daisuke was the best and most inspiring tonight! He should have won because he has more interesting program. The next most exciting was Verner and after that was Lambiel. I am happy that Joubert finally won a gold medal, but his skating was uninspired. He just seemed to skate around from jump to jump, but I give him credit for handling all of the pressure and not making any mistakes. That's what a champion does.

In my opinion Joubert was over-scored in the short programme and that caused that he won the competition. I have seen it mentioned about his freeskate: " Joubert did not skate to win, he skated not to lose". Joubert´s freeskate should have been 4th.

Takahashi, what a fantastic freeskate!!! I really love this skater...

 

[amber68]

You're basically saying, "yes this Dinner was amazing but there was no asparagus in it - BOOO". Who the hell cares. He is a unique, brilliant performer. His programs have a mystical feeling about them - full of longing and wonderment. I'm quite happy that he didn't cut the music in such a way that the predictable Spanish themes are highlighted. Artists create, not imitate, and Stephane is an artist.

~Z

It's not about the music cut or that he should have skated in a predictable manner a Spanish theme. IMO Stephane does not have the carriage and the tension required by a flamenco. And Stephane did not create anything . It was Salome Brunner.
The skaters are as creative as their team is. Klimkin used to be labelled as a very creative skater before he moved to Kudriavtsev. What happend to the creativity afterwards? We are talking about the same skater who all of a sudden lost his creativity and originality after he moved to a less creative coach....

 

[Zuranthium]

Well, perhaps the point is that if the skater went for that extra 1/8th of a turn, like they were suppose to do to get the points, they'd fall on their butts too..

I don't think you understand how jumping works. Nobody can do a jump to the exact 1/8th of a turn. It just doesn't work like that. Jumping is about feeling your body position and the rotation and then breaking out at approximately the correct time. Some jumps will be a little bigger and faster than others, you just do your best to get around and land clean. A skater who can consistently control a Triple such that it's clean but slightly underrotated has better abilitity with that jump than someone who can only force their body into the rotations and almost never land.

Also, what if you fall on an underrotated Triple? That should be worth more than falling on just a plain Double of the same type. Because, again, it's simply a fact that one jump is harder than the other.

Therefore, going by the laws of logic, the only way to provide balance to the system is to assign underrotated jumps specific values that are worth less than doing the fully rotated jump but more than the value of the jump that's the next level down.

~Z

 

[Zuranthium]

It's not about the music cut or that he should have skated in a predictable manner a Spanish theme. IMO Stephane does not have the carriage and the tension required by a flamenco. And Stephane did not create anything . It was Salome Brunner.

You are specifically trying to LABEL his program as meaning one specific thing. Who says the music is supposed to be the exact representation of "Flamenco Dance [X]"?

Additionally, you're also saying that the WAY a piece of choreography is performed has absolutely no bearing on the impact or meaning of that choreography.

Let's go teach President Bush the choreography to Lyra Angelica. Obviously, as long as he just does the motitions the way he is told, his artistry is equal to that of Michelle Kwan. Nothing that Michelle Kwan does with the choreography makes it any better because it's still the same choreography. Right?

No. :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp:

~Z

 

[Germanice]

Wow, what a glorious night for male figure skating!!!

It's really hard to tell who impressed me the most; Brian's coolness, Daisuke's heart & art, Stephane's fire or Tomas' guts. Thank you, guys, that was quite memorable.

Why I got the impression here Brian has to say sorry because he won. He knew what he had to do and did exactly that, under tremendous pressure. It may not come across popular all the time, but that what Champs are made of! :agree:

I really feel sorry for Jeff; I like it how he "works" his way through his programs, this must be extremly demanding physically. And his SP was a real beauty.

Hugs to my brave Johnny, it just wasn't meant to be (again!). Good to hear he'll come back next year, and I'm sure he'll come back STRONG! :yes:

Anke

 

[amber68]

You are specifically trying to LABEL his program as meaning one specific thing. Who says the music is supposed to be the exact representation of "Flamenco Dance [X]"?

Additionally, you're also saying that the WAY a piece of choreography is performed has absolutely no bearing on the impact or meaning of that choreography.

Let's go teach President Bush the choreography to Lyra Angelica. Obviously, as long as he just does the motitions the way he is told, his artistry is equal to that of Michelle Kwan. Nothing that Michelle Kwan does with the choreography makes it any better because it's still the same choreography. Right?

No. :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp: :disapp:

~Z

You totally misunderstood me. I did not say that the way a piece of choreography is performed has no impact on the choreography!. Because it does.
I just said Stephane did not create anything. He performed a program choreographed by someonelse who should get the credit for creating the program.
Also I did not say that the music is supposed to be the exact representation of "Flamenco Dance ". I actually haven't said anything about the music only about Stephane's abilities to project the flamenco feeling.

 

[npa]

In my opinion Joubert was over-scored in the short programme and that caused that he won the competition. I have seen it mentioned about his freeskate: " Joubert did not skate to win, he skated not to lose". Joubert´s freeskate should have been 4th.

Takahashi, what a fantastic freeskate!!! I really love this skater...

Agree with you on 100 %.
In last year we hear that Joubert was under-scored - but he did the same jumps - he cant did 2 tr. a, two quads< he cant aia combinations with two triples - only t+t/ Yes, in Moskow he was terrific, but in Tokyo...
I think in FS must be 1. Verner 2. Takahashi 3. Lambiel 4. Joubert