Has Johnny already peaked? (COC/COR Spoilers)

[OldSkaterMom]

Also to Momjudi, Evan has either been injured or ill the past two seasons at Worlds and the Olympics, or has everyone forgotten? Evan had a stress fracture in his hip 2004-2005. The flu that he had at the Olympics, where he jumped from 10th to 4th, turned into a bacterial infection, but he went to Worlds and took the bronze medal again while still on medication. He also has nagging, chronic bursitis in his hip, which caused him to withdraw from last season's GPF. He came back full steam 6 weeks later at Nationals and we all know what happened there.

I hope both skaters are healthy and uninjured. I worry all the time about the health of all of the skaters. The level of difficulty they skate these days is very dangerous. They all have had stress fractures. Johnny's stress fractures was when he was 16. He should be over it now. The undiagnosed mono didn't seem to curtail any other of his activities, although it certainly would slow down his training. If he had any sense, it would have slowed him down elsewhere also.

My very last statement on JW is this: I am very tired of hearing all of the excuses being made to defend him. JW needs to defend himself with his skating. Perhaps when I see that, at the same level all the other skaters in the world are striving for, then, and only then, will I have some respect for him.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Slutskayafan21, you really seem to love, not just like Johnny and will defend him to the death.

:chorus: :chorus: This opening line shows how clueless you are regarding who my favorties are. I am not even a Weir fan and those who have been on here with me awhile will atest to that. My favorites are Lambiel, Takahashi, Buttle, and Yagudin. I am a fan of neither Weir and Lysacek.

Also, regarding 2007 Nationals, Johnny made the remark that when Evan won the SP after Johnny had skated his best, he KNEW that USFSA wanted Evan to win.

He has every right to feel that way. There was a smear campaign on Johnny for weeks leading into Nationals.

Pure nonsense. The judges cannot manipulate a competition like that.

You dont think National events can be influenced by the federation and their wishes.

Furthermore, 4CC was an International competition with International judges. Of course the scores are not going to be as inflated as Nationals. Evan's quad in that program was by his own admission, "scratchy," and the difference in points for his LP was only 6.

Actually his score in the LP was 10 points below Nationals, not 6.

Evan's score for his LP was just about what Evgeni received for his Olympic program.

Already proving how ridiculous it was. Imagine Evan's best getting anywhere near the score of Plushenko best in front of an international panel. :chorus:

You are totally off base to say that the only way Evan can medal at World's is for the other men to wipe out.

Oh really?

2005 Worlds

Stephane Lambiel- singled 3 major triple jumps in the long, still won the long by 7 points over 2nd place Buttle and 11 points over 3rd place Lysacek, and the gold medal by 16 points over 2nd place Buttle and 24 points over 3rd place Lysacek.

Jeff Buttle- fell twice in the long. Still was 2nd in long and won silver overall.

Brian Joubert- had complete meltdown in the long, landing about 2 triples. Had atleast silver behind Lambiel locked up with even semi-decent skate, even with falls. Had easily outscored Buttle by 2 points in short, Lysacek by 6 points in short.

Evgeny Plushenko- withdrew, was sitting in 3rd place overall and if he had skated a watered down program like qualifying would have won atleast silver also. Probably did not want to further risk the injury for an event he probably wasnt going to win (although if he knew all the mistakes Stephane would make in the final it might be different) or have a loss due to subpar health on his record so pulled out.

Johnny Weir- injured and subpar the whole competition. Fall in short, several stumbles in long. Still would have won bronze over Evan had he done an 8th jumping pass as he finished only 4 points back.

Stephan Lindemann- previous years bronze medalist, was in position to medal after qualifying and scores from Europeans prove he was strong enough to beat Evan's bronze medal scores with a good competition. Bombed short program and it was over.

Timothy Goebel- even he had finished 2nd at U.S Nationals over Evan. Bombed completely at Worlds.

So of course Evan won a medal by default. Had Brian landed something like 5 triples instead of 2, or had Evgeny finished off the competition even in subpar shape he would have been off the podium easily. Basically the whole event was a total mess and he still would have been a distant 4th in a horribly skated event had it not been for Plushenko's injury/withdrawal. Lambiel with huge mistakes still was in another universe from him, and Buttle quadless and falls was clearly over him too.

2006 Worlds

Stephane Lambiel- skated well, although still a couple mistakes in both short and long including a controversial downgraded triple axel in long which cost him over 4 points), won narrowly over Joubert.

Brian Joubert- skated near flawlessly, narrowly lost gold. Hurt possibly by subpar qualifying round.

Evan Lysacek- short was flawed and was 8th in the short. Long was one of his best, including successful quad, but still beaten easily by both Lambiel and Joubert by 7 points in just the long program itself.

Nobinaru Oda- several stumbles and flaws in long. No quad attempt like 3 medalists either. Still would have won bronze over Evan had he not done a 4th combo and had a triple flip totally discounted. The points from that would have won him the bronze, even with a subpar performance and no quad.

Daisuke Takashi- Japan could only send 1 of Oda or Takahashi, and decided to split one to Olympics, one to Worlds.

Evgeny Plushenko- withdrew.

Johnny Weir- injured back, was barely able to stand up at end of his free skate.

Jeff Buttle- meltdown at home, 2 or 3 major misses in both short and long programs.

Again the event was pretty much a mess, the only difference from 2005 was the top 2 actually skated pretty well. Still would have been a distant 4th even in another mess of an event had Plushenko not withdrew.

Last years Worlds Evan actually skated a better competition then he ever had at Worlds and finished only 5th. Why? A few more of the other guys actually stood up their programs and skated well. At the Olympics the silver and bronze medalists made many more mistakes over the two programs combined then him and edged him by a considerable margin for the podium anyway. They were just better skaters.

If that were the case, why does he already have two World bronze medals? I would wager that you are describing Johnny instead.

Actually Weir is good enough to have a chance to beat other top skaters without them making mistakes. Evan is not. Name me one time Evan has proven himself good enough to beat other top skaters without them missing things.

This year it has continued that way. What top skaters has Evan beat? At Cup of China he finished over Lambiel only with Lambiel having a meltdown, everytime Lambiel does something plausible for him he beats Lysacek. At Skate America he finished over Chan when Chan was a newcomer to senior judges, and also made alot of mistakes in that event, Chan's scores are already going up and it will be harder for Evan to beat him by worlds.

Weir skated well with watered down content and that was enough to beat Evan. Daisuke fell twice in the long program at Skate America and that was enough to beat Evan.

Trashing and criticizing Evan and his skating is not going to make Johnny a better skater or win him more titles.

Like I already said I am not a Johnny or Evan fan. So it is easy for me to be objective when it comes to the two of them.

 

[Medusa]

Like I already said I am not a Johnny or Evan fan. So it is easy for me to be objective when it comes to the two of them.

Thanks for defending him - it is just more fitting and impressive than my reasoning could ever be (I really need to delete my sig...).

But I do not even dislike Evan cool, I admire his attitude, his will to fight and to win - I also think that his skating has a certain appeal, this overdramatic bravado, I like that too.

I just like Mr. Weir better. But that is just my taste. But if you compare their programs this year - even a clean Lysacek cannot compete against a clean Weir. Nearly every jump in Lysacek's programs looks like hard work - it actually is hard work, but it really looks like it. His landings are often tight, he does not get much height on most of his jumps. As a former gymnast I also value and love good body tension, and Lysacek just does not have much.

Weir's programs are less creative or artistic this year - that is really true. But I think that he needs to learn - or to relearn how to do clean programs, and that is why his programs are a bit more conservative right now. I still just love to watch him skate - I mean the LP in China, wow, every jump was really part of an entire movement (though I did not like his spins so much, his spins were better in Russia, but his steps were better and more energetic in China). There was no saving the jump, it was so fluent, so elegant. That is what I love about him. And to see him skate clean programs with that kind of elegance just makes me happy, what can I say. And I do not think he has peaked yet (just answering the actual question of the thread).

Concerning the Quad: both of them are really annoying me with this Quad-business.
On the one hand we have Lysacek who praises himself for trying the Quad in the short and long program - really pretending like it is the most important jump or even element. Well, the Quad does not do him any good if he cannot land them and the rest of his performance suffers.
But on the other hand Weir who makes such a big deal out of it, saying that it "disturbs" his performance and "breaks" the program (he said that after the short at CoR). Come on, he is doing one of the most beautiful 3,5-revolution-jumps on this planet and this jump is an incredible asset to his skating and program, he has such an amazing flow out of it - and wants to tell us that 4 revolutions disturb his programs?

 

[OldSkaterMom]

You certainly could have fooled me about not being a Johnny fan. If you are not, why are you defending him so vociferously?

My question is, when has Johnny ever beaten a top skater who has not made mistakes?

Evan is the top ranked skater in the US and has been since 2005. When Johnny starts to improve his placement on the International scene, then I will believe that he is a better skater, but not the best. At any given day any one of the top men can win because the difficulty levels have been ramped up and mistakes are made.

Johnny has never proven himself any place except US Nationals. And, no, US Nationals is not a fixed competition. International competition are the ones more likely to be corrupt.

Evan's LP score at 4CC was ten points lower than Nationals. His TES score was 6 points lower. My reference to Evgeni's score was in reference to his TES score at the Olympics.

If you are neither an Evan or Johnny fan, I do not know why you even care or are even involved in this discussion. I have only been responding to comments you have made. Over and out.

 

[OldSkaterMom]

Just a short comment on quads. Evan knows that come 2010 the quad is going to be extremely important. His coach has said that if you are not willing to try the difficult elements, you might as well get out of the business. All of the commentators have said that Evan is on the right track in putting the quad out there in competition. It will make it more secure for the future and he will be more confident in trying it. Also, it isn't like Evan is constantly missing them. This season he is two for two so far. Of all the quads he has tried, he has only completely missed two. That is not a bad track record. I think his total is 7/2.

I said it before and I will say it again. Johnny and Evan are both great skaters. Evan has worked harder and is more trained. They have very different styles. I happen to prefer Evan. What I can't understand is how and why Evan gets trashed so much on these forums, while everything Johnny does or doesn't do is defended with excuses. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

And that is my final word. This is all useless babble.

 

[childfreegirl]

Come on, he is doing one of the most beautiful 3,5-revolution-jumps on this planet and this jump is an incredible asset to his skating and program, he has such an amazing flow out of it - and wants to tell us that 4 revolutions disturb his programs?

Maybe the mental preperation, effort, etc disturbs his concentration in the program. I'm not on the ice, so who am I to judge?

 

[Medusa]

Maybe the mental preperation, effort, etc disturbs his concentration in the program. I'm not on the ice, so who am I to judge?

Of course I am not on the ice, neither could I ever do what he does - but if I think that way I just should be in awe of everyone who can spin relatively well, because I cannot do that. If I am not allowed to judge his skating just because I cannot do it, I can quit talking about skating completely. And I am not saying that it is not difficult, I am just saying that if he really wants to do it he should not philosophise about the disturbing impact the quad could have on his programs. That is psychologically seen not the most helpful and reasonable approach.

 

[Eddie Lee]

OldSkaterMom....I agree with you on most points.   But I do believe most federations influence--directly or indirectly--the results of their National competitions.  Overtly?......Rarely.  Subtlely?.... Nearly always.  Let me say that as I approached the arena  during a practice session at Spokane Nationals, I struck up a conversation with a professional media representative (whom I had briefly met in the airport on the way up).   We were discussing the singles' competition.  She insisted that Kimmie would win the Ladies' gold.  Her statement as best I remember went something like this  (in jest):  "Kimmie will win if they have to roll her out on the ice in a wheel chair"!  Other federations may egregiously "fix" results, but not USFS.  However, certain subtleties appeared in the ladies' judging--both SP and FS--that made one wonder if some  minor adjustments were not in play!  Personally I believe the placements were probably correct.  Certainly, subsequent results at Worlds seemed to concur.  This year, however, I believe the gold will be highly contested on the ice.  And I hope that the best skater wins!  Let the chips fall where they may--regardless of whether or not the eventual gold medalist is old enough to compete at Word's or not!

 

[Dee4707]

My question is, when has Johnny ever beaten a top skater who has not made mistakes?

And when has any other elite skater beat the whole bunch just based on pure talent. It seems the winners (elite or not) win because the others may have made mistakes, Johnny included, Evan included, Plushenko included, Yagudin included, Kwan included and Slutskaya.

Dee

 

[Tonichelle]

And when has any other elite skater beat the whole bunch just based on pure talent. It seems the winners (elite or not) win because the others may have made mistakes, Johnny included, Evan included, Plushenko included, Yagudin included, Kwan included and Slutskaya.

Dee

It's no secret that I cheer for Evan over everyone else out there on the men's ice at the moment, but I don't see him as leaps and bounds above Johnny... the two are as different as night and day skating wise... which I guess is why they seem to have a polarizing effect when it comes to skating fans... I think it's rare to find someone who is a rabid fan of both (though they do exist!)

They both have their good points and bad. They both have bad PR moments. They're both human.

Neither is super human... neither's made it to the top of the world podium... and if both skated their best at nationals this year it's going to come down to the judges' personal preference and maybe even teh USFSA's preference...

Evan's lost to Johnny already this season which I think will light a fire under him more than anything else... they'll both have to bring their game to St. Paul...

and I'm going to need a sedative :lol:

 

[OldSkaterMom]

Agree with both of the above. The gold will be highly contested, and isn't there a saying that it is about the "last one standing." However, in the case of the Evan's win at last year's Nationals, there was no way anyone could have tampered with the results.

Evan had said that "you don't dethrone a champion by skating cautious," and that he did not do. He also said he wanted to skate a performance that was worthy of a gold medal, and not one that he won because someone else made mistakes. That wasn't the case either.

I hope the best skater wins this year also, and in all 4 disciplines.

 

[momjudi]

,
Also, personally, I think Evan has already done, in one year, more to promote the sport in the US than Johnny ever did in his three years as National Champ.

can you please give me an example of how Evan has promoted figure skating other then his plan to add jumping on ice to the Winter X-Games and his criticism of men's costumes?

 

[Mathman]

What I can't understand is how and why Evan gets trashed so much on these forums,...

My impression is that a lot of people who contribute to figure skating forums fault Evan for his claims (with the blessings of USFS) to be a manly man who is intent on injecting a masculine style into the sport.

He even wears black to prove it, in contrast to all those other guys in their spangles and sequins.

The media plays along by showing Tanith in the audience as much as possible, as if to say, look everybody, a male figure skater who has a girlfriend!

 

[Hsuhs]

Yeah, just like that decent guy Michael Weiss, who's done nothing wrong. Ppl can be so ruthless sometimes.

 

[Mathman]

Michael -- a truly decent guy indeed -- was played up that way by the figure skating establishment and their cronies in the TV sports networks. ("Look, a married man! With children!")

As far as I know Michael himself just went on with his skating and paid no attention to that sort of thing.

 

[ae9177]

Yes I like Evan Lysacek. I first noticed him at 2005 Worlds as a skater worth keeping an eye on. I don't know how long you have been following ice skating, but my name "OldSkaterMOM, isn't for nothing. I have been following ice skating since 1968. Both of my daughters skated competitively back in the late '80's, early '90's and trained at the UofD where Johnny began his training and where Kimmie Meissner and other world class skaters train and have trained. I do know a fair amount about the sport. I do know what it takes to make a champion figure skater, and it takes more than talent. A skater can go so far on talent, but eventually has to put in the blood, sweat, and tears. Evan Lysacek has both.

That is all I have to say on the matter. The debate will never be resolved here. We can agree to disagree, but I cannot tolerate false statements being made about any skater. If you wish to state something, check your facts first. Evan Lysacek has never made excuses for himself. He is a person of integrity and honesty who trains with one of the best coaches the US has.

Well said OldSkaterMom, I'm glad somebody finally has the guts to step up and defend Evan. (Just ignore the comments from a few people who are extremely biased, they're hopeless. :yes

One thing made me admire this guy is that he always give it 200% when he's on ice, and never makes excuses. He can trump inspite of all the adversities. I have a feel for him this year.

And I do like Michael Weiss, he's a very nice guy, all critics on him are rediculous.

As to Tanith, if I remember correctly, she only got a few shots at the end of Evan's FS in ESPN broadcasting, and there was only one comment from Terry that she's dating Evan, NBC cut that out later. I'm not sure why people exaggerate it so much and take that few shots as such a big deal? Bottom line is, she's an eye candy, people love to see her, what's wrong with that?

 

[Tonichelle]

Michael -- a truly decent guy indeed -- was played up that way by the figure skating establishment and their cronies in the TV sports networks. ("Look, a married man! With children!")

As far as I know Michael himself just went on with his skating and paid no attention to that sort of thing.

Michael was the one people vented on until the next guy came along...

I'm sure had the internet been around in the 80s early 90s Scott Hamilton and probably even Kurt Browning would have gotten just as much flack.

 

[tilak]

:sheesh: to what this thread turned into.
Isn't the title of this thread , "Has Johnny already peaked?" Maybe OldSkaterMom needs to start another thread regarding Evan.

 

[Hsuhs]

:sheesh: to what this thread turned into.
Isn't the title of this thread , "Has Johnny already peaked?" Maybe OldSkaterMom needs to start another thread regarding Evan.

But Evan thing is usually discussed in Johnny's threads, not just on this board. I don't know why.

 

[Dodhiyel]

Woof! After a cursory scan, I'm almost afraid to read all the new posts on this thread lol. For now, I'll just say that I think this rivalry between Evan and Johnny may very well increase the sport's popularity in the U.S. again, since fans of both are fairly fervent, and both men are U.S. skaters. In the past, such rivalries have always appealed to the public. The sheer suspense of it all (Who will come out on top this time?) is a crowd pleaser. Certainly, Evan is a dogged competitor, and has been from day one; a defeat in this rivalry just seems to make his jets burn more hotly. Johnny has shown less determination, in the past, than Evan has shown, but I think there have been real reasons for that, and so far, this season has truly been a new day for Johnny.

Has he peaked? I think that question cannot be answered until at least after the GP Final. Both men there will, most likely, be up against Daisuke Takahashi, who has been showing so much improvement in his performance nerves, that he has become one of the very top male skaters, internationally. They will also be up against Lambiel, who has been World Champion in the past, and could be again if he gets his jumps back; certainly, he seems to have the judges' favor, judging by his PCS. At Worlds, they will probably face Brian Joubert (I certainly hope that Brian is completely well by then), and possibly Nobunari Oda. Johnny and Evan will not be doing Euros, of course, and I rather doubt that either he or Evan will be drafted into doing 4 Continents, so there is only the GP Final, Nationals, and Worlds to consider for them, in the question of peaking.

I think a lot, at U.S. Nationals, will depend upon how they have spent their holiday seasons, how much they seriously stay in training during that time. It is said that there are three things that matter most in real estate: location, location, and location. Perhaps there are three things that matter most in figure skating: training, training, and training.......also, maybe, training lol.