2021-2022 Russian Men's Figure Skating

[coldblueeyes]

But we have to agree that 74 is still criminal for Aliev.

 

[MintGreen]

I don't think they support even Kolyada all that much any more, as @coldblueeyes eyes said, he used to be scored better than this. Aliev and Danielian I would like to see deliver better performances and watch what the PCS scoring is like. If their scores remain low, there is definitely something very wrong going on. Arguably with Semenenko and Samarin those scores are pretty much what they deserve, but that never stopped Samarin from being scored way higher before, so he's definitely been dropped from the support list. Considering he's still scored highly at home it seems the Fed still likes him but is not prepared to politick for him internationally.

I think Kolyada was correctly marked. His score looks fair or even on the generous side. He had a fall in the SP and a few big step out in the FS, which were rather disruptive but his PCS was only 1 point less than Yuma's.

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I think Kolyada was correctly marked. His score looks fair or even on the generous side. He had a fall in the SP and a few big step out in the FS, which were rather disruptive but his PCS was only 1 point less than Yuma's.

Agree with the rest of your post.

I think Kolyada got correct scoring too. This program had mistakes, and I still don't like the choreography for it.

Samarin in past was still hugely inflated (by judges and fans). I don't wish him ill or want to insult him, but his skating isn't even on the level of the top 10 Russian junior men for me (looking at TR, crossovers, performance - in fact, just all PCS categories). His jumps are huge though, and his new programs hide his weaknesses quite well. I think that speaks to the standard of Russian men as well (in terms of quality of skating).

Aliev is special, but for better or worse in this sport you can't be expecting high PCS with serious errors. It's never gonna happen. Aliev has some of best SS, but they need his jumps to work too.

Ignatov has good jumps, but no fitness (Is this a trait of all Evgeni Rukavicin's skaters? I think he needs to alter their training...

Kolyada wasn't overscored imo, but got what he deserved. That being said, I'm tired with how much Russian fans sleep on him and underrate him. I've seen so many people say they should send Samarin or Ignatov OVER/INSTEAD of Kolyada and I'm just shaking my head.

What are they seeing that I'm not? Kolyada on his day is an Olympic medallist. Perhaps gold medallist if he could get 4Lz back (but right now just wanting him to get consistent with content he has). Yet still Russian fans (other than one's really into skating) don't appreciate just how good his skating is. I hoped after white crow they would come around, and many did. Many didn't. I hope the current streak of Kolyada's success continues so people can finally open their eyes to what a beautiful skater he is.

 

[vorravorra]

I think Kolyada got correct scoring too. This program had mistakes, and I still don't like the choreography for it.

Samarin in past was still hugely inflated (by judges and fans). I don't wish him ill or want to insult him, but his skating isn't even on the level of the top 10 Russian junior men for me (looking at TR, crossovers, performance - in fact, just all PCS categories). His jumps are huge though, and his new programs hide his weaknesses quite well. I think that speaks to the standard of Russian men as well (in terms of quality of skating).

Aliev is special, but for better or worse in this sport you can't be expecting high PCS with serious errors. It's never gonna happen. Aliev has some of best SS, but they need his jumps to work too.

Ignatov has good jumps, but no fitness (Is this a trait of all Evgeni Rukavicin's skaters? I think he needs to alter their training...

Kolyada wasn't overscored imo, but got what he deserved. That being said, I'm tired with how much Russian fans sleep on him and underrate him. I've seen so many people say they should send Samarin or Ignatov OVER/INSTEAD of Kolyada and I'm just shaking my head.

What are they seeing that I'm not? Kolyada on his day is an Olympic medallist. Perhaps gold medallist if he could get 4Lz back (but right now just wanting him to get consistent with content he has). Yet still Russian fans (other than one's really into skating) don't appreciate just how good his skating is. I hoped after white crow they would come around, and many did. Many didn't. I hope the current streak of Kolyada's success continues so people can finally open their eyes to what a beautiful skater he is.

There is a lot of negativity towards both the Russian men and Kolyada specifically in the media, to the point where people only vaguely aware of figure skating are asking "this Kolyada is a hopeless screw-up, why do they keep sending him to big competitions?" If you only learn about this from the media it is indeed baffling. But it's not like the rest of the men fare much better in the media. If you endlessly hear "we should send Trusova/Valieva/etc. to compete in men instead of this usless bunch", it's not going to make you kindly disposed towards the men. Maybe because of the history there is an expectation that each new man should be a new Plushenko and win scores of medals, otherwise they are a waste of resources. The more general attitude that athletes should bring in medals or what's the point of having them also plays into this.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

We have now two entire cycles of Eteri dominance in ladies, but her men are just nothing.

As mentioned above, early quads just don't seem to work in men, and the earlier they get them, the earlier things start going wrong. Another tendency I am not fond of is getting boys to jump multiple quads before they get a 3A.

I am no expert in physical education so I can only reiterate what I picked up along the way. It's just my two cents, take it all with a grain of salt, please.
1) Prepubescent girls are actually physically stronger and able to withstand higher loads than boys. This is only reversed once puberty and hormones kick in. So early training of quads could leave boys much more injury-prone than girls of the same age. It's a biological fact, not something lacking in the boys.
2) I've heard several coaches say in interviews that the 3A is the hardest jump to teach. While quads can be forced to a certain extent with some amount of pre-rotation and twisting of the body, a clean 3A requires rather pure technique because of the "awkward" forward take-off. So a wonky quad might be relatively easier to learn than a good 3A.
3) Despite people claiming that the girls are overtaking the men, objectively this is just not true. In men's skating you need a stable 3A and at least three different quads to have a shot at the podium in international senior championships (with some exceptions of very gifted PCS skaters). No boy fresh out of juniors at 15 will have that jump content, so there seldom is the instant gratification of winning everything in your senior debut. A girl on the other hand still can show up on the senior circuit with an unreliable 3A and a quad toe and collect all the prizes if her fed is behind her.

Tutberidze has unlocked that success formula for women's skating and arguably perfected it with each new generation of young prodigies, but I don't think she is in it for the long game that is men's skating. She coached Seryozha Voronov to a European Championship medal, but he was already an adult when he came to her. Then there are Morisi K. and Nika Egadze, who both compete for Georgia and don't have much internal competition, thus getting their international assignments rather easily. Granted, they have won medals on the international stage, but are not consistent podium threats like the Tutberidze girls. And that's about it, really. All the other talented boys she had either had career-ending injuries or just fizzled out somewhere along the way. So it seems to me at least that the Tutberidze effect is not working as well for the guys.
Davydov also has a little quad-jumping wonder boy, Maxim Belyavsky, it will be interesting to see how he turns out.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I am no expert in physical education so I can only reiterate what I picked up along the way. It's just my two cents, take it all with a grain of salt, please.
1) Prepubescent girls are actually physically stronger and able to withstand higher loads than boys. This is only reversed once puberty and hormones kick in. So early training of quads could leave boys much more injury-prone than girls of the same age. It's a biological fact, not something lacking in the boys.
2) I've heard several coaches say in interviews that the 3A is the hardest jump to teach. While quads can be forced to a certain extent with some amount of pre-rotation and twisting of the body, a clean 3A requires rather pure technique because of the "awkward" forward take-off. So a wonky quad might be relatively easier to learn than a good 3A.
3) Despite people claiming that the girls are overtaking the men, objectively this is just not true. In men's skating you need a stable 3A and at least three different quads to have a shot at the podium in international senior championships (with some exceptions of very gifted PCS skaters). No boy fresh out of juniors at 15 will have that jump content, so there seldom is the instant gratification of winning everything in your senior debut. A girl on the other hand still can show up on the senior circuit with an unreliable 3A and a quad toe and collect all the prizes if her fed is behind her.

Tutberidze has unlocked that success formula for women's skating and arguably perfected it with each new generation of young prodigies, but I don't think she is in it for the long game that is men's skating. She coached Seryozha Voronov to a European Championship medal, but he was already an adult when he came to her. Then there are Morisi K. and Nika Egadze, who both compete for Georgia and don't have much internal competition, thus getting their international assignments rather easily. Granted, they have won medals on the international stage, but are not consistent podium threats like the Tutberidze girls. And that's about it, really. All the other talented boys she had either had career-ending injuries or just fizzled out somewhere along the way. So it seems to me at least that the Tutberidze effect is not working as well for the guys.
Davydov also has a little quad-jumping wonder boy, Maxim Belyavsky, it will be interesting to see how he turns out

Axels are awkward because of the forwards takeoff, but pre-rotation is absolutely good for an axel. With axel, you can't use speed to force it though, and you have to transfer weight differently to the other jumps. this does make it harder to force, and needs to be approached very technically or it does go very off and rotation will be very close.

on point 1, this is not true. but when boys go through growth spurt (that they try to prevent for girls), often they are more injury prone. They are about similar strength pre-pubescent, and the difference appears post-pubertally often.

3) the top girls are overtaking average men (when you factor in spins, consistency(very few men ever skate clean programs without even step outs). The top 10 or so men are in league of their own though

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

3) the top girls are overtaking average men (when you factor in spins, consistency(very few men ever skate clean programs without even step outs). The top 10 or so men are in league of their own though

Yes, but the top girls are currently also jumping less difficult content than the average men. I'm curious if they'll allow women to jump quads in SP in the next Olympic cycle, how the ladies' consistency and superiority in spins, etc. will develop when they suddenly feel the need to jump five quads and two 3As across two programs.

 

[lariko]

I think Kolyada was correctly marked. His score looks fair or even on the generous side. He had a fall in the SP and a few big step out in the FS, which were rather disruptive but his PCS was only 1 point less than Yuma's.

Agree with the rest of your post.

The rule for reduction of PCSs due to obvious mistakes are rather nebulous. It has to be 2 in the program and they have to visibly detract from the enjoyment of the program—which remains up to the judges. In the past, neither falls nor pops led to reduction on PCSs for mega-high components skaters.

Aliev’s PCSs were less than Boyang’s, Cha’s and Vasileyv’s, and neither of those 3 produced a beautifully clean program, inspiring the anyone to tears, or technical content exceeding Aliev’s.

The judge who scored Aliev including music and performance in 6.25-6.5 range was from Japan. They didn’t reduce marks to any other men. So, in their opinion, Aliev doesn’t have a feel for waltz.

 

[lariko]

Davydov also has a little quad-jumping wonder boy, Maxim Belyavsky, it will be interesting to see how he turns out.

Belyavskiy though acquired 3A early and jumps it to a great effect. But, sadly, at the expense of much else. Lev Vinokur is in his group as well, right? If so, he is also jumping quads.

From non-Russian male skaters, iirc Uno acquired 3A late, and iirc after quad.

I also wanted to nod to the sentiment that senior men do need 3A+ 3 quads as a standout technical base, wile for women it is any one of 3A or a quad, and doing it twice cleanly across two programs is usually enough to be considered outstanding. Only two senior women atm can show both 3A and one quad reliably, and it is a starting kit for senior men. Men also consistently jump 3A in a combo, from junior onward, which very few women do.

 

[EVAMARIA]

I really wondered who that judge was...I wasn't in Italy but at Finlandia. I saw several people in the audience getting very emotional and moved by Alievs performance including myself. So these 6,25-6,5 given by this judge shows some stinky judging. How disrespectful

 

[lariko]

I really wondered who that judge was...I wasn't in Italy but at Finlandia. I saw several people in the audience getting very emotional and moved by Alievs performance including myself. So these 6,25-6,5 given by this judge shows some stinky judging. How disrespectful

It was the Japanese judge, #8. Since Aliev’s marks in the short were above 7.25 across the board, it was the waltz specifically that wasn’t to their liking.

 

[lariko]

Ignatov has good jumps, but no fitness (Is this a trait of all Evgeni Rukavicin's skaters? I think he needs to alter their training...

I would be ecstatic to hear that it is a problem with cardio conditioning rather than loss of lung capacity after Covid due to scarring or something.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I would be ecstatic to hear that it is a problem with cardio conditioning rather than loss of lung capacity after Covid due to scarring or something.

I mean, I don't know about his covid situation but I followed Makar slightly in 2018 (before he had 4Lo or solidified 4T), and even then by end of program he was doing level 1 and 2 spins with V despite the fact he's a decent spinner when fresh.

In 2019 (nebelhorn - checked rinkresults as forgot) told similar story but he also added 4T and 4S. Lvl 2 spins, and he looked pretty tired about halfway through program (albeit not like now) and lost performance after jumps (same story with lots of performances in 2019).

This is not just case with Makar though. Lots of Evgeni Ruhkins former students showed similar traits. Big jumpers, lack of stamina. Same with some of the women he coached.

Maybe covid worsened it, but I think his coaching team have missed something down the line.

 

[lariko]

I mean, I don't know about his covid situation but I followed Makar slightly in 2018 (before he had 4Lo or solidified 4T), and even then by end of program he was doing level 1 and 2 spins with V despite the fact he's a decent spinner when fresh.

In 2019 (nebelhorn - checked rinkresults as forgot) told similar story but he also added 4T and 4S. Lvl 2 spins, and he looked pretty tired about halfway through program (albeit not like now) and lost performance after jumps (same story with lots of performances in 2019).

This is not just case with Makar though. Lots of Evgeni Ruhkins former students showed similar traits. Big jumpers, lack of stamina. Same with some of the women he coached.

Maybe covid worsened it, but I think his coaching team have missed something down the line.

Ignatov is Ignatov. If anything, he is at least improving this year in terms of that sharp drop off energy in the middle of his free skate. It seems less noticeable to me… or maybe I am looking for the positives here

Speaking of which, good luck to Ignatov this weekend!

Hmm, maybe I should stock up on calming teas this week.

 

[vorravorra]

The rule for reduction of PCSs due to obvious mistakes are rather nebulous. It has to be 2 in the program and they have to visibly detract from the enjoyment of the program—which remains up to the judges. In the past, neither falls nor pops led to reduction on PCSs for mega-high components skaters.

Aliev’s PCSs were less than Boyang’s, Cha’s and Vasileyv’s, and neither of those 3 produced a beautifully clean program, inspiring the anyone to tears, or technical content exceeding Aliev’s.

The judge who scored Aliev including music and performance in 6.25-6.5 range was from Japan. They didn’t reduce marks to any other men. So, in their opinion, Aliev doesn’t have a feel for waltz.

I would say right now Aliev doesn't have the speed and energy. A walz, particularly in the LP, is rather demanding. I am not sure if it was the best idea to pick it. The Masquerade was a great choice, but that was an SP.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I haven't found a nice podium picture of CoR stage 4 yet, so that has to wait a little bit.
However, I have the updated standings after four stages (Men who need to qualify to RusNats via CoR in BOLD, current top 4 qualifiers in GREEN, 5th place might also qualify depending on whether Samsonov gets a bye):

Points​	Name​	Stages skated​
34​	Erokhov	2​
32​	Anisimov	2​
30​	Savosin	2​
30​	Dikidzhi	2​
24​	Lezheev	2​
22​	Lazukin	2​
20​	Shesternev	2​
18​	Samarin	1​
14​	Polianskiy	2​
14​	Yablokov	1​
12​	Gumennik	1​
12​	Mukhortov	1​
12​	Atoyar	1​
11​	Varakin	2​
10​	Butashnov	1​
9​	Markov	2​
8​	Sudakov	2​
8​	Kovalev	1​
6​	Vetlugin	1​
2​	Sobolev	1​
2​	Golubev	1​
0​	Katichev	1​
0​	Cheripka	1​
0​	Oshchepkov	1​

If there are no withdrawals, Lazukin, Kovalev, and Vetlugin are definitely out of Nationals. The top four are safe. Mukhortov and Atoyar could both still move ahead of Lezheev into fifth place if they win the last stage.
Edit: Apparently, I forgot how to do maths. Of course Kovalev and Vetlugin could also still go ahead of Lezheev if they win the fifth stage. I'm still not sure how a tie-breaker would work if two guys have the same amount of points, but I assume by total score. Let's wait and see who will even compete at the last stage.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

On another topic, does anyone else have the feeling this season is a little bit cursed? Mozalev and Danielian are apparently still not fully recovered from their injuries, Aliev is struggling with god knows what, Gumennik gets no love internationally. Samsonov is out indeterminably. Semenenko won a GP medal, but afterwards Mishin said he had to skate on pain killers since he hurt himself when training the 4F. Now he had to withdraw from Cup of Austria, presumably still due to this injury. ( Damn it, he was my personal highlight in the line up). Ignatov and Samarin at least are fit at the moment, though neither had any luck in their first GP assignment. Kolyada is delivering steady results, but noone really appreciates his programs this season and he has no room for major mistakes with his tech content. The only ray of hope is the unexpected revival of Erokhov, and the excellent showings of the young lads at the JGP.
I just hope everyone can get back in form, heal their injuries, stay healthy, and skate at their best when it counts!

 

[lariko]

On another topic, does anyone else have the feeling this season is a little bit cursed? Mozalev and Danielian are apparently still not fully recovered from their injuries, Aliev is struggling with god knows what, Gumennik gets no love internationally. Samsonov is out indeterminably. Semenenko won a GP medal, but afterwards Mishin said he had to skate on pain killers since he hurt himself when training the 4F. Now he had to withdraw from Cup of Austria, presumably still due to this injury. ( Damn it, he was my personal highlight in the line up). Ignatov and Samarin at least are fit at the moment, though neither had any luck in their first GP assignment. Kolyada is delivering steady results, but noone really appreciates his programs this season and he has no room for major mistakes with his tech content. The only ray of hope is the unexpected revival of Erokhov, and the excellent showings of the young lads at the JGP.
I just hope everyone can get back in form, heal their injuries, stay healthy, and skate at their best when it counts!

So far it wasn’t a great season for senior men, though i would also note that Savosin is finally doing better (not to jinx it)… junior men though are delivering in spades. I mean, Yablokov is right up there for me with his programs choice and storm-it attitude. Dikidzhi’s early season problems is hopefully (?) over? One thing for sure, the day when there is no hopeful guy on skates hadn’t yet dawned over Mother Russia.

Anyway, I’m preparing to cheer for Ignatov and Samarin this weekend anyway, hell or high water.

 

[Skater Boy]

I think Kolyada got correct scoring too. This program had mistakes, and I still don't like the choreography for it.

Samarin in past was still hugely inflated (by judges and fans). I don't wish him ill or want to insult him, but his skating isn't even on the level of the top 10 Russian junior men for me (looking at TR, crossovers, performance - in fact, just all PCS categories). His jumps are huge though, and his new programs hide his weaknesses quite well. I think that speaks to the standard of Russian men as well (in terms of quality of skating).

Aliev is special, but for better or worse in this sport you can't be expecting high PCS with serious errors. It's never gonna happen. Aliev has some of best SS, but they need his jumps to work too.

Ignatov has good jumps, but no fitness (Is this a trait of all Evgeni Rukavicin's skaters? I think he needs to alter their training...

Kolyada wasn't overscored imo, but got what he deserved. That being said, I'm tired with how much Russian fans sleep on him and underrate him. I've seen so many people say they should send Samarin or Ignatov OVER/INSTEAD of Kolyada and I'm just shaking my head.

What are they seeing that I'm not? Kolyada on his day is an Olympic medallist. Perhaps gold medallist if he could get 4Lz back (but right now just wanting him to get consistent with content he has). Yet still Russian fans (other than one's really into skating) don't appreciate just how good his skating is. I hoped after white crow they would come around, and many did. Many didn't. I hope the current streak of Kolyada's success continues so people can finally open their eyes to what a beautiful skater he is.

White Crow! White Crow! Bring it back Bring it back.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

By the way, there is also this gem of an article. I am not sure if Kogan is trolling us? But at least it seems to be confirmed that Artur Dmitriev Jr. is now officially representing the US.

Kogan: Dmitriev is not a Russian figure skater, he has been skating for Croatia for three years

MOSCOW, Nov 10 - RIA Novosti, Oleg Bogatov. Figure skater Artur Dmitriev Jr. since 2019 skates for the Croatian national team, and all comments on the transition of the athlete to the US team should be given by the national federation of this country, Alexander Kogan, director general of the Russian Figure Skating Federation (FFKKR), told RIA Novosti.
Earlier, 29-year-old Dmitriev in comments in the media said that he intends to skate for the US team. At the end of October, the father of the athlete, two-time Olympic champion in figure skating Artur Dmitriev Sr. in an interview with RIA Novosti denied reports of a possible transfer of his son to the US team.
"Artur Dmitriev (Jr.) is not our athlete," Kogan said. - "He has been a Croatian athlete since 2019. We have his statement asking for a transition, we have a request from Croatia with a request for a transition, which was agreed by the executive committee (FFKKR). And since 2019, he does not belong to Russia. Therefore, all other comments should be given by Croats, not us."
Dmitriev Jr. is a master of sports of international class, the champion of Russia among juniors in 2011. He became the first skater in history who managed to perform a cascade of triple lutz - triple flip in official competitions.