Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[Mathman]

Fun for fan banter, sure. But…

What male singles skater won the most Olympic Gold Medals? This question is absolutleyyunambiguously defined and has has an answer that is incontestable fact: Gillis Graftstrom, 3. Greatest of all time?

An athlete can compete only against his contemporaries. He or she cannot skate against the ghosts of past legends, nor against yet-unborn stars of the future.

Well, humans do enjoy speculation and opinion regarding rankings. No harm — but is the question well-defined? Can we ever hope to come to agreement as to what the question means?

 

[Diana Delafield]

Not really. What was "so great a performance it can never be surpassed" will be "meh" in twenty years, in a sport like skating that constantly evolves. In other areas, like literature or art, the opinion is too subjective. You can declare "My GOAT, in my opinion" but not The GOAT.

 

[4everchan]

If it's goat cheese, it's meaningful. If not, it's useless.

 

[TontoK]

The only redeeming quality about GOAT debates is that they remind me of great skaters (or other athletes) that I've forgotten about for a while.

But those debates must be good-natured and fun. Not caustic death matches among participants. No patience for that. At all.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

If it's goat cheese, it's meaningful. If not, it's useless.

Must a GOAT necessarily have cheesy programs? That's a question.

I don't think that GOAT applies everywhere. Great does and most Arts and Sports have their greats. Only few have GOATS because precisely, a GOAT isn't "just" a great, not "just" a genius with exceptional ability and the latest training methods, they must be so much above and beyond the rest that one cannot imagine anything approaching anytime soon. I would say, Carlos Kleiber (in spite of his name; it's not worse than Sir Simon Rattle's after all) was approached by Mariss Jansons. Approached. This doesn't prevent other Conductors from learning, playing, finding their way; be it only because altogether these two played only a fraction of the repertoire.
Figure Skating did long with great Skaters and no GOAT, now has a GOAT (only in one discipline), I hope that the Figure Skating world is going to behave better but in any case the legacy is already building, both in recorded works and (still not hugely, but I'm sure it will come) in technique and vision.

 

[Arigato]

No.

 

[TallyT]

If it wasn't meaningful, people wouldn't argue up icy hill and down frozen lake about how meaningful it is or isn't: look anywhere online, the number of folk who when 'the GOAT' or 'the best' comes up will rush to tell the world how much they really really really really really really really don't care... you gotta laugh.

In any sport, fans argue over who is the current best or best ever (with the current World Cup, the fights over who is their GOAT can go on for eeeeevvvvver). In pretty much any pursuit, people argue about who is the best, in music (the fights during the musical countdowns on our classical music station between Beethoven and Mozart stans, oh boy) or art or literature or design or architecture or you name it... and are they meaningful? Maybe not objectively, but can anyone be objective about something they love? (Even if they swear hand on heart they can.)

So no, in the scheme of things it may not matter but in the real world... people care. A lot. Including those who really really really really really really really insist it doesn't.

 

[4everchan]

, for those who don't know, that is a goat.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

, for those who don't know, that is a goat.

This, the animal who feels nowhere better than on a steep cliff and who goes its own independent way...

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342836590360477704/

(It's terrible how many AI products the search proposed. I'm frightened about the day when AI tools know some Physics.)

(...)

In any sport, fans argue over who is the current best or best ever (with the current World Cup, the fights over who is their GOAT can go on for eeeeevvvvver). In pretty much any pursuit, people argue about who is the best, in music (the fights during the musical countdowns on our classical music station between Beethoven and Mozart stans, oh boy) (...)

TallyT, please... I can admit a fight between Mozart and Chopin, but Beethoven? Admittedly he's a very great...
Here are a very young Chopin and an "old" Mozart united (I know Samson François has recorded it, but I don't find it on Youtube, so let's "try" this Pianist I didn't know):

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Edit: It's the first orchestral version I'm hearing, and it's so much better than Piano Solo because the menial jobs are all upon the Orchestra, which avoids them being a burden on the Piano Solo version... I can admit an Orchestra to be offended to have to play this and a Polish Orchestra must be among the very few who accept, but what's wrong with Piano Supremacism. Orchestras (and Conductors) are too proud methinks. There are sound distorsions but I don't have the impression that they come from the sound capture?

 

[4everchan]

there is another goat in this forum @labgoat

 

[yfan1]

GOAT may not be. "Greatest of an era" is probably better defined.

 

[TallyT]

TallyT, please... I can admit a fight between Mozart and Chopin, but Beethoven?

I am just saying what happens on the threads with the top 100 countdowns (the most recent was in June and two of Beethoven's pieces came 1 and 2, because Aussies really really adore the Emperor and the Ninth). To be fair we invariably also get people furiously championing every one of the usual candidates for music's GOAT....

As I said, fans care about who is acknowledged as best. Even a lot of fans who say they don't.

And now back to on topic...