Is GOAT a meaningful concept?

[Mathman]

Fun for fan banter, sure. But…

What male singles skater won the most Olympic Gold Medals? This question is absolutleyyunambiguously defined and has has an answer that is incontestable fact: Gillis Graftstrom, 3. Greatest of all time?

An athlete can compete only against his contemporaries. He or she cannot skate against the ghosts of past legends, nor against yet-unborn stars of the future.

Well, humans do enjoy speculation and opinion regarding rankings. No harm — but is the question well-defined? Can we ever hope to come to agreement as to what the question means?

 

[Diana Delafield]

Not really. What was "so great a performance it can never be surpassed" will be "meh" in twenty years, in a sport like skating that constantly evolves. In other areas, like literature or art, the opinion is too subjective. You can declare "My GOAT, in my opinion" but not The GOAT.

 

[4everchan]

If it's goat cheese, it's meaningful. If not, it's useless.

 

[TontoK]

The only redeeming quality about GOAT debates is that they remind me of great skaters (or other athletes) that I've forgotten about for a while.

But those debates must be good-natured and fun. Not caustic death matches among participants. No patience for that. At all.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

If it's goat cheese, it's meaningful. If not, it's useless.

Must a GOAT necessarily have cheesy programs? That's a question.

I don't think that GOAT applies everywhere. Great does and most Arts and Sports have their greats. Only few have GOATS because precisely, a GOAT isn't "just" a great, not "just" a genius with exceptional ability and the latest training methods, they must be so much above and beyond the rest that one cannot imagine anything approaching anytime soon. I would say, Carlos Kleiber (in spite of his name; it's not worse than Sir Simon Rattle's after all) was approached by Mariss Jansons. Approached. This doesn't prevent other Conductors from learning, playing, finding their way; be it only because altogether these two played only a fraction of the repertoire.
Figure Skating did long with great Skaters and no GOAT, now has a GOAT (only in one discipline), I hope that the Figure Skating world is going to behave better but in any case the legacy is already building, both in recorded works and (still not hugely, but I'm sure it will come) in technique and vision.

 

[Arigato]

No.

 

[TallyT]

If it wasn't meaningful, people wouldn't argue up icy hill and down frozen lake about how meaningful it is or isn't: look anywhere online, the number of folk who when 'the GOAT' or 'the best' comes up will rush to tell the world how much they really really really really really really really don't care... you gotta laugh.

In any sport, fans argue over who is the current best or best ever (with the current World Cup, the fights over who is their GOAT can go on for eeeeevvvvver). In pretty much any pursuit, people argue about who is the best, in music (the fights during the musical countdowns on our classical music station between Beethoven and Mozart stans, oh boy) or art or literature or design or architecture or you name it... and are they meaningful? Maybe not objectively, but can anyone be objective about something they love? (Even if they swear hand on heart they can.)

So no, in the scheme of things it may not matter but in the real world... people care. A lot. Including those who really really really really really really really insist it doesn't.

 

[4everchan]

, for those who don't know, that is a goat.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

, for those who don't know, that is a goat.

This, the animal who feels nowhere better than on a steep cliff and who goes its own independent way...

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/342836590360477704/

(It's terrible how many AI products the search proposed. I'm frightened about the day when AI tools know some Physics.)

(...)

In any sport, fans argue over who is the current best or best ever (with the current World Cup, the fights over who is their GOAT can go on for eeeeevvvvver). In pretty much any pursuit, people argue about who is the best, in music (the fights during the musical countdowns on our classical music station between Beethoven and Mozart stans, oh boy) (...)

TallyT, please... I can admit a fight between Mozart and Chopin, but Beethoven? Admittedly he's a very great...
Here are a very young Chopin and an "old" Mozart united (I know Samson François has recorded it, but I don't find it on Youtube, so let's "try" this Pianist I didn't know):

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Edit: It's the first orchestral version I'm hearing, and it's so much better than Piano Solo because the menial jobs are all upon the Orchestra, which avoids them being a burden on the Piano Solo version... I can admit an Orchestra to be offended to have to play this and a Polish Orchestra must be among the very few who accept, but what's wrong with Piano Supremacism. Orchestras (and Conductors) are too proud methinks. There are sound distorsions but I don't have the impression that they come from the sound capture?

 

[4everchan]

there is another goat in this forum @labgoat

 

[yfan1]

GOAT may not be. "Greatest of an era" is probably better defined.

 

[TallyT]

TallyT, please... I can admit a fight between Mozart and Chopin, but Beethoven?

I am just saying what happens on the threads with the top 100 countdowns (the most recent was in June and two of Beethoven's pieces came 1 and 2, because Aussies really really adore the Emperor and the Ninth). To be fair we invariably also get people furiously championing every one of the usual candidates for music's GOAT....

As I said, fans care about who is acknowledged as best. Even a lot of fans who say they don't.

And now back to on topic...

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I am just saying what happens on the threads with the top 100 countdowns (the most recent was in June and two of Beethoven's pieces came 1 and 2, because Aussies really really adore the Emperor and the Ninth). To be fair we invariably also get people furiously championing every one of the usual candidates for music's GOAT....

As I said, fans care about who is acknowledged as best. Even a lot of fans who say they don't.

And now back to on topic...

I think that your answer was on topic in the disagreement on the very definition of a GOAT...

 

[Magill]

If it wasn't meaningful, people wouldn't argue up icy hill and down frozen lake about how meaningful it is or isn't: look anywhere online, the number of folk who when 'the GOAT' or 'the best' comes up will rush to tell the world how much they really really really really really really really don't care... you gotta laugh.

In any sport, fans argue over who is the current best or best ever (with the current World Cup, the fights over who is their GOAT can go on for eeeeevvvvver). In pretty much any pursuit, people argue about who is the best, in music (the fights during the musical countdowns on our classical music station between Beethoven and Mozart stans, oh boy) or art or literature or design or architecture or you name it... and are they meaningful? Maybe not objectively, but can anyone be objective about something they love? (Even if they swear hand on heart they can.)

​

So no, in the scheme of things it may not matter but in the real world... people care. A lot. Including those who really really really really really really really insist it doesn't.

Very true, and here's a 15-page-long evidence of how little some people care, lol
Can we say anything new on the subject which has not been said then already? Personally I doubt it.

Thread 'The Greatest Of All Time'

Jun 23, 2024

I haven't seen any threads talking about this.
Who is the GOAT (Greatest of all Time) of figure skating for each discipline ?

Try to answer as objectively as possible. I think it's better to judge on the last 30 years (figure skating before the 80's is too different)

• Marty McFlip
• Replies: 281
• Forum: 2024-25 Figure Skating archives

 

[noskates]

I think the term GOAT is overused. In sports I can think of 2 people who have totally earned it - Tom Brady and Simone Biles and maybe Michael Phelps. BUT, I honestly don't think there's a GOAT in figure skating. At least not yet. I do kind of like the concept of Greatest of an Era.

 

[yfan1]

Hmmm.

Greatest of IJS Skating.

Women: Yuna Kim/Mao Asada. Joint first because I think they are 'opposite' skaters, with Yuna having better toe jumps, Mao having better edge jumps. Yuna having more speed and deeper edges, but Mao having better edge control. Yuna having better technique jumps, but Mao attempting harder content. So on. Even in terms of musicality, I thought they were opposite, Yuna being more extroverted, and Mao being more introverted lol.

Men: Yuzuru Hanyu.

Pairs: Sui/Han (and it's not close)

Ice Dance: Virtue/Moir. I think they had wonderful power and control, and I simply liked the phase of Ice Dancing when they were at their peak better.

 

[el henry]

GOAT will never be a useful term when we have different times. And if people insist on mo' betta, mo' jumps or scores to compare figure skaters, well, I can't even entertain that conversation. Not useful.

It happens in other sports as well. How can you compare "Concrete Charlie", Chuck Bednarik, to football players 60 years later?.How do you compare players, skaters, whatever, to athletes who have the benefit of training today? I don't think you can.

I will also always have my own GOATs though. Who are without doubt the best

 

[4everchan]

I will also always have my own GOATs though. Who are without doubt the best

and that's the only way it should be... meaning that they are your ultimate favourites and thus, nobody can dispute this. So if a thread said, who is your favourite skater ? then go for it... and be unashamedly biased about everything. That's all fine with me.

I find that when there are GOAT debates, people are trying to impose their biases on others, and/or they truly believe that they detain absolute truth. I mean, it's like trying to persuade me to suddenly become a practicing believer of any religion. Good luck with that : I am an atheist....

Also the "all times " principle... even of "an era" is seriously subjective. How can you say of all times when as a human, your experience is limited and of course, you cannot see the future... and of an era... how can one define that era without making arbitrary decisions ?

It's all garbage all along So GOAT is Garbage Offered As Treasure . For once, AI was useful giving me an alternate meaning for these letters

 

[noskates]

Unfortunately, if you had a thread that asked who is your favorite skater some posters would list wayyyyyyyyy more than one! That happens every time the question of "favorite" comes up. Always makes me laugh.

 

[4everchan]

Unfortunately, if you had a thread that asked who is your favorite skater some posters would list wayyyyyyyyy more than one! That happens every time the question of "favorite" comes up. Always makes me laugh.

sure but I think it's healthy too, to have multiple favourites. There is nothing worse, in my humble opinion, than fans who are only devoted to one skater and only one skater. I am able to answer who is my favourite skater but if I am allowed to list 3-4, I am happy to do so as well. I could even give you my top 100 if I were asked to do so.