- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Could it have been that the ISU saw a need for more balanced and better looking programs and used the bonus as a way to encourage this? :think:
Yes, I think so. That's what I was trying to say.
Could it have been that the ISU saw a need for more balanced and better looking programs and used the bonus as a way to encourage this? :think:
And why do you suppose certain skaters were frontloading as opposed to spreading the jumps throughout the program? Certainly not because it is easier to save some of the big tricks for the second half of the program?
Could it have been that the ISU saw a need for more balanced and better looking programs and used the bonus as a way to encourage this? :think:
Edited to add: I don't think the ISU's plan (to encourage balanced programs) always works out, though. Now we are seeing programs where the skater does a few huge tricks in the first thirty seconds, then skates aimlessly around looking at his watch until the stroke of the the second half, then does his second flurry of big tricks, picking up the bonus.
Edited to add: I don't think the ISU's plan always works out, though. Now we are seeing programs where the skater does a few huge tricks in the first thirty seconds, then skates aimlessly around looking at his watch until the stroke of the the second half, then does his second flurry of big tricks, picking up the bonus.
Question: should the rules follow the skaters - or should the skaters follow the rules?
Fine tuning is one thing - but some of the changes we are seeing appear to be for a few select skaters and not necessarily for for the good of the sport. The rules will no doubt be adjusted for quite a while ......... and it feels at times like ISU has no clear vision to follow other than the money trail.
Mathman, do you have particular programs in mind?
Well, we're not privy to the decision making process.
Of course the medal-contending programs get the most attention and they probably do want to make some of the adjustments to address issues that the public and the press have been concerned about, as well as the skaters and coaches, who have their own personal interests in what's rewarded.
But some changes are likely made in response to trends across all junior and senior international competitions. If there's one prominent example at the top it may seem as though that skater was personally the impetus for the rule change, but that wouldn't necessarily be the case.
I wanted to jump in and point out Lysacek chan brezina with their jump/jump/jump/spin/step taking 2 mins and 15 seconds and then 45 seconds or a minute of jumps after the halfway point and that represents a balanced program LOL. And then you have Plushenko with this jump jump jump spin jump step jump taking 2 mins and 15 seconds.
Evan did the same jumps in 2007 Nationals, he also had excellent choreography and transitions.
It's very easy to be a gracious winner;
museksk8r said:Plushenko did the same thing with the Olympic results and you're free to express your disapproval about his behavior. Don't sit there and try to say one is different from the other though. You really can't without looking like a hypocrite. It's not apples and oranges as you say; it's apples and apples. JMO.
Even with the changes, the Loop Jump still gets more value than the Salchow. What a Tech Panelist should be looking for is a defined back inside take off of the salchow and flip. If you look closesly many skaters take off on the Flat of the blade. But then again, any which way take offs have never been considered an error. Technique is only considered for the air rotations and the landings on all Jumps.
No one is stopping a skater from executing a Tripple Walley. It's not so much about using a jump pass as it is about base values. There are no BVS for any kind of Walley. The single Walley could be used for the PC scores, I would imagine.
Okay, but does that mean they skate aimlessly around, or do they use interesting transitions and skating to create a fully choreographed program? After all, a program is more the just the elements (not to Plushenko, admittedly)
Here's Chan's program. At what point does he "skate around aimlessly?" You can argue with it being a well-skated program - Chan's injury certainly set him back jump wise, and you can argue about it being a good program for Chan (outwardly melodramatic is not his strong suit), but it's a fully choreographed, balanced program with loads of nutsy difficult transitions (and remember, he was making those easier this season).
And here's the other thing about "backloading." It's harder. If you have two programs of equal jump content, and one does most of the jumps in the first half vs the another doing more in the last half (and in the end, lets be clear, we're talking about the difference in rotations of about a quad, intriguingly enough), the latter is more difficult, and if TES is a measure of difficulty, then shouldn't that be rewarded there?
janetfan, yeah, I think you're being a little cynical. I don't blame you, though.
If two skaters did the exact sames jumps in one program and one frontloaded and one backloaded then the bonus would make more sense-but if someone with a quad or quads frontloads and someone with no quads backloads I don't feel that is in any way comparable and maybe the person with the quads should get the bonus but the one without should not!
Maybe not Chan so much because he does do a lot of transitions with in between in his jumps and spins but he still takes 2 minutes and 15 seconds for three jumping passes and a spin and step sequence!!! but definitely lysacek or brezina-the only thing lysacek does is some sqauts and he made me think there should be a zayak rule for transitions because all he did was squats over and over.
So a counter rotation jump involves the Laws of Physics when it involves a rotation of more than 2 turns?
I do not buy that exception to the definition of a 3Walley.
An exceptional Jumper can handle it.
The Too difficult jump should not come into the picture to exclude it. It's SPORT. (The Quad Lutz should not be banned, either.
yes thank you both.
I hate hypocrisy cause truth to be told, this board would have exploded gracefully if Lysacek had lost 1.3 to Plushenko for the Gold. Regardless of plushyfan, I m trying to be balanced and see that Lysacek should have won the Lp, and that Plushenko might have been overmarked there and didnt work the CoP but on the other hand all I read is that suddenly Lysacek is the artistic skater who was not in the beginning of the season and who deserved every single pcs and all the GOES somehow. This is hypocrisy to me. If you can recognize the judge gifts to one skater then be decent and look on the other skater's too, what he got comparing to Lambiel and Chan pcs for example or what he got in sp.
And also dont fool ourselves, if Lysacek had won 1.3 over a skater like Takahashi or Lambiel people would have been more vocal about his marks. Most people here didnt care about Lysacek wining , they were just happy he stopped Plushenko for second gold. And if I say something now, I m whinny like Plushenko. Who, by the way, said what he said the moment right after he lost and that's it, and he is not repeating it like some people on the board do the last 3 months.
And we are beating a dead horse anyway, cause Lysacek won the Olympics. And I also wish Lysacek if he goes to Socchi for a second gold to be equally welcomed and warmly commented by the media there even before he arrives, exactly as much as Plushenko was.
Mathman, do you have particular programs in mind?
I don't know if this helps--I'm not Plushenko's biggest fan, but I wasn't wishing for him to be stopped. In fact, I assumed he had won. When Bob Costas, the American announcer, said his name (in a tone of absolute shock, might I say), you could have knocked me over with a feather. I get the sense that you could have knocked Lysacek over with a feather, too. In a situation like that, with a difference of one or two points, who knows what to think? It's one of those squeakers like Baiul vs. Kerrigan, the two Brians, and of course my personal heartbreaker, Kwan vs. Lipinski. Hey, it could have gone either way.
Lysacek impresses me not as an artist but as a pretty well balanced skater and a darned hard worker. There's a place for that in the world. He's probably not a skater for the ages. A generation from now, people won't be saying his name with a sigh and a smile, the way we talk about Boitano. But he did pull out the win. Good for him! And Plushy has a gold medal as well, which is a great outcome. I'm especially happy for Frank Carroll. But I do understand your feelings. It's part of the love-hate feeling we all have for skating. My condolences!