2015-16 Grand Prix Final Mens SP

[Alchamei]

Finally I'm able to comment on the unbeliable men's event! Yesterday I had no internet, but I can say that I CAN'T belive Yuzu made history again! 110! I'm going to faint now... :eeking: Everything was spot on, his jumps (can't belive he really has a stable 4-3!), his spins and he even had only level 3 steps! So can evn score higher if you know what I mean. He really enjoys his program and while his IN still needs to improve, he deserved perfect 10 in PE! Lots of 10s across the board, 49 PCS is insane but I don't really mind it.

However, I'm sorry, but while Javi's program is great and he sold the hell out of it, he was overscored as hell. Czech commemtator agreed and called it a disgrace and I agree. He deserved to be on the same score level as Shoma and Boyang. The judges love Orser's students. Mysister loved Javi, because according to her he put his heart to his skate, which fits, but his SS and PE should have been lower.

I would personally give Shoma the third place, but it's close between him and Boyang. Probably nerves played their part but despite that Jin's combo scored 14 points, so around 4 toe+3toe with 0 GOE. So still very high rewarded risk. His performance was worse than in NHK.

Oh Shoma... If it wasn't for that quad... Not sure if quad in the second half is the best idea. Nevertheless, his SS are spot on and his program is cool. My sis enjoyed the music . Czech commentator called him a brilliant jumper, I wouldn't exacly say so since jumps are not his biggest strenght but he certainly improved. I quite like his 3A.

Too bad we couldn't see Dice's 3Lz-3Lo again and it's a shame he messed up his combo. Should try more steps into his quad, otherwise judges will punish him and they do. Steo seq bore me but he has a feel for the music and is certainly very elegant. By the way, Javi did basically the same layout and got 8 points more. Not agree. Should have been 5 at best.

But Patrick proves he is a headcase. Get a real coach already! I don't cheer for him but I hoped he wouldn't Zayak... He did. Oh. What a mistake. Also, he tried to do a more upbeat style (similar to Yuzu who tried to strech his interpretation and do a Chopin piece), I don't really buy it. Yes, his SS are great, good flowm super posture... However, it's like skating though music and not to music. Czech commentator was even mad at the judged for his PCS and I can see why, he didn't deserved those 44 in my opinion. But I guess it didn't matter as much in the SP, I hope judges won't overscore him in FS.

 

[Bonesfan]

I had the impression that one reason Hanyu changed his SP jump layout was to avoid Zayaking/invalidating like he did at Skate Canada.

Planned
4S
4T-3T
3A

Say he misses the 3T in the combo, then he tacks on a 3T or 2T to the 3A (which he can do easily). Or must the 3A be a solo jump in the SP?

My point was the idea of not doing a triple-TRIPLE toe after you've tripled your opening quad toe should be second nature (just like, say, in Ladies or in Men's in the past, if you mess up your opening combo, the norm is to put a combo later on, even if it's just a 3-2). Mathman makes a good point of you don't want to do a runthrough thinking that you will have to do a backup plan but you also have to play smart. Hanyu goes for broke... if he fails on his 4T, then he gets deducted for not doing a combo, doesn't get points for the triple, and he gets -GOE for the error - which is a huuuuge risk (but obviously pays off if he hits the 4T+3T).

I remember Gold once dis a 3S+1T because she had already done two 2Ts in her freeskate, and other skaters have done the same with the new rule in the FS that you can't have more than 2 of the same double jump.

Oda has had problems with Zayaking (turning a quad to a 3T, and then invalidating later combos with -3T).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I had the impression that one reason Hanyu changed his SP jump layout was to avoid Zayaking/invalidating like he did at Skate Canada.

Planned
4S
4T-3T
3A

Say he misses the 3T in the combo, then he tacks on a 3T or 2T to the 3A (which he can do easily). Or must the 3A be a solo jump in the SP?

The 2A/3A must be a solo jump in the SP.

Hanyu deliberately doesn't do the opening quad in combination to get more points on the combo later on. It's a very very big risk that is costly if he errs on his 4T and is unable to put it in combination.

 

[Bonesfan]

I had the impression that one reason Hanyu changed his SP jump layout was to avoid Zayaking/invalidating like he did at Skate Canada.

Planned
4S
4T-3T
3A

Say he misses the 3T in the combo, then he tacks on a 3T or 2T to the 3A (which he can do easily). Or must the 3A be a solo jump in the SP?

The 2A/3A must be a solo jump in the SP.

Hanyu deliberately doesn't do the opening quad in combination to get more points on the combo later on. It's a very very big risk that is costly if he errs on his 4T and is unable to put it in combination.

But both quads are in the 1st half. Is 4T-3T, 4S fewer points than 4S, 4T-3T? Are you thinking that eventually he'd move the combo to the 2nd half?

 

[HanDomi]

However, I'm sorry, but while Javi's program is great and he sold the hell out of it, he was overscored as hell. Czech commemtator agreed and called it a disgrace and I agree. He deserved to be on the same score level as Shoma and Boyang. The judges love Orser's students. Mysister loved Javi, because according to her he put his heart to his skate, which fits, but his SS and PE should have been lower.

Have to agree, he got as high PCS as Hanyu world record at NHK, this is just ... incredible

 

[Alchamei]

The 2A/3A must be a solo jump in the SP.

Hanyu deliberately doesn't do the opening quad in combination to get more points on the combo later on. It's a very very big risk that is costly if he errs on his 4T and is unable to put it in combination.

But he does his combo in the first half, so he doesn't bet any bonus. The jump layout he has not fits perfectly to music and it would be hard to change the program for the third time.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

But both quads are in the 1st half. Is 4T-3T, 4S fewer points than 4S, 4T-3T? Are you thinking that eventually he'd move the combo to the 2nd half?

My bad. Yes, both are in the first half - although I wouldn't be surprised if he moved the 2nd pass to the second half (after all, he's able to execute 4T+3T in the second half of the freeskate).

I'm guessing that's the plan, but it could also be because he's way more comfortable putting a 4T in combination with a 3T versus the 4S (although in that case, if he were smart, he'd open with the 4T+3T, so even if the 4T fails he can attempt the 4S in combination).

 

[Alchamei]

Where do the judges go from here? They do exactly what they would do under the old scoring system: Give him 10's again. Although 6's weren't common in the old days, they weren't that rare either.

And no room left for what? What merits a 10 for you? A skater who can take flight and not touch the ice at all?

For many of us, Hanyu is already Superman. I've watched skating for decades and he is in a class by himself.

Yuzu isn't perfect, but I think he deserved 49 PCS. This particular performance was really special and he has brilliant SS, the best TR (certainly deserved 10), great PE (wouldn't give perfect 10 but no problem there), superior CH and awesome IN, although I wouldn't give him any 10 there. But he would deserve 9.50, certainly.

My problem with is PCS is when judged give it like candy to everyone having a clean skate and reputation, despite not being perfect and having a lot of things to fix. Patrick deserves 10s for SS, but what about PE and IN at times? His perfomamces, even clean, aren't often the most inspiring. And Javi, yes, his CH and also IN in SP are 10 worthy but what about his SS? And PE when he messes up and is not inspiring?

 

[NanaPat]

My point was the idea of not doing a triple-TRIPLE toe after you've tripled your opening quad toe should be second nature (just like, say, in Ladies or in Men's in the past, if you mess up your opening combo, the norm is to put a combo later on, even if it's just a 3-2). Mathman makes a good point of you don't want to do a runthrough thinking that you will have to do a backup plan but you also have to play smart. Hanyu goes for broke... if he fails on his 4T, then he gets deducted for not doing a combo, doesn't get points for the triple, and he gets -GOE for the error - which is a huuuuge risk (but obviously pays off if he hits the 4T+3T).

I remember Gold once dis a 3S+1T because she had already done two 2Ts in her freeskate, and other skaters have done the same with the new rule in the FS that you can't have more than 2 of the same double jump.

Oda has had problems with Zayaking (turning a quad to a 3T, and then invalidating later combos with -3T).

So does/did Fernandez.

There has been some discussion in another thread that the Zayak rule is too punitive, and that a double toe shouldn't be worth more than a triple toe. One possibility is to just downgrade the jumps until they aren't duplicate. That is, downgrade a triple toe to a double, or a double to a single, to make the combination count. Another suggestion is to give credit for the first jump, but not for the second, "zayaked" one.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So does/did Fernandez.

There has been some discussion in another thread that the Zayak rule is too punitive, and that a double toe shouldn't be worth more than a triple toe. One possibility is to just downgrade the jumps until they aren't duplicate. That is, downgrade a triple toe to a double, or a double to a single, to make the combination count. Another suggestion is to give credit for the first jump, but not for the second, "kayaked" one.

I agree with both of those suggestions. Zayak rules are indeed too punitive, and Hanyu and Chan and Fernandez and a variety of skaters have been screwed over because of them.

 

[da96103]

Question:
If a skater only jumps 3 solo jumps in SP, does it mean the second non-axel jump is zero straightaway.

Example For Hanyu:
4S
4T (did not tag 3T)
3A

Does he still get marks for 4T, or 4T becomes invalid element?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Question:
If a skater only jumps 3 solo jumps in SP, does it mean the second non-axel jump is zero straightaway.

Example For Hanyu:
4S
4T (did not tag 3T)
3A

Does he still get marks for 4T, or 4T becomes invalid element?

No it is still validated, but the jump gets labelled as a +COMBO, and he is still credited with some points (I think it's 70% of the base value or something like that, someone please confirm?)... usually the technical panel will mark the lower scoring jump as the +COMBO jump to give the skater the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think he'd get this

4s+COMBO full BV (with negative GOE)
4t full BV with GOE
3a full BV with GOE

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think he'd get this

4s-COMBO full BV (with negative GOE)
4t full BV with GOE
3a full BV with GOE

I always wondered, isn't GOE supposed to be -3 reduction or something like that if the jump isn't in combination, even if it was completely clean? I would hope that isn't the case -- i.e. the +COMBO jump is reduced in value but can still get positive GOE if it was cleanly executed. Or is it like a flutz where you get a base value deduction and a reduction in GOE even if the jump was "cleanly" executed.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think just -3 GOE required is all. I thought BV was untouched. I'm trying to remember who did it so I can go check their protocols from earlier this season. :think:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think just -3 GOE required is all. I thought BV was untouched.

No, for a +COMBO isn't the BV reduced? Unless that's the FS +REP I'm thinking?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Going by the handbook I was only able to find that the GOE is required to be -3 GOE. I didn't see anything about BV.

http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf

Maybe they amended it somewhere else. I know this has happened this year. If we can just remember who did it then we can just go look at the protocols. :yes:

 

[Alchamei]

Go by the handbook I was only able to find that the GOE is required to be -3 GOE. I didn't see anything about BV.

http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf

Maybe they amended it somewhere else. I know this happened this year. If we can remember who we can just go look at the protocols. :yes:

Polina in one of her GP events last year had no combo in SP, even though her second jump was clean.

 

[Alchamei]

I think he'd get this

4s+COMBO full BV (with negative GOE)
4t full BV with GOE
3a full BV with GOE

Wouldn't the second jump get +COMBO since it was the second jump but mainly, the combination was planned there? Every panel may do it differently though.

 

[da96103]

Going by the handbook I was only able to find that the GOE is required to be -3 GOE. I didn't see anything about BV.

http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf

Maybe they amended it somewhere else. I know this has happened this year. If we can just remember who did it then we can just go look at the protocols. :yes:

All these discussion on the finer details of scoring should be what Patrick and his coach do intensively.