2015-2016 Programs by Discipline

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think Liza should work with Morozov for coreography. He does not do the most difficult coreography but can get cool movements. Definitly Mishin is seeing to Liza like another Plushy.

THIS!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[hurrah]

I think Liza should work with Morozov for coreography.

Oh, yeah. I can see that duo working well. Lambiel's choreography probably didn't suit Liza. Quite frankly, I just saw Lambiel's program for Akiko, and his programs are all about having supreme edges and sublime body expression, and I thought that even Akiko had difficulties selling it.

I could see Liza succeeding with programs such as the ones Morozov gives to Alena Leonova. Her programs are sometimes blatantly camp, and sometimes not, but always has a whiff of campiness, and yet there's also a kind of poignancy about her programs as well.

And there would definitely be no overlap with Mao (so no danger of comparison), cause I don't know that Mao can do camp. And I think very few skaters have that potential, in fact. Like, I can't really see Julia doing camp---she'd probably refuse it on matter of principle or something. Adelina could maybe but her people probably wouldn't allow it. Elena's too genuinely good at dancing and listening to music so that rules her out. Pogo is often unintentionally camp but that means she can't do real camp. etc., etc. So very few skaters can do genuine camp!

 

[Interspectator]

Oh, yeah. I can see that duo working well. Lambiel's choreography probably didn't suit Liza. Quite frankly, I just saw Lambiel's program for Akiko, and his programs are all about having supreme edges and sublime body expression, and I thought that even Akiko had difficulties selling it.

I could see Liza succeeding with programs such as the ones Morozov gives to Alena Leonova. Her programs are sometimes blatantly camp, and sometimes not, but always has a whiff of campiness, and yet there's also a kind of poignancy about her programs as well.

And there would definitely be no overlap with Mao (so no danger of comparison), cause I don't know that Mao can do camp. And I think very few skaters have that potential, in fact. Like, I can't really see Julia doing camp---she'd probably refuse it on matter of principle or something. Adelina could maybe but her people probably wouldn't allow it. Elena's too genuinely good at dancing and listening to music so that rules her out. Pogo is often unintentionally camp but that means she can't do real camp. etc., etc. So very few skaters can do genuine camp!

I like how you think. Campy is fine, as long as there is some kind of cohesion in the program.

Then again, I ended up liking Vornov's long program and that is the MOST insane musical cuts and choreography in history. --I guess the cohesion was that it was Vornov that was doing it. You never know what will work until you try.
I hope Liza can try various things until she finds something that works for her. At the present moment her program is worrying. There is still plenty of time to change it.

 

[Layback11]

I like how you think. Campy is fine, as long as there is some kind of cohesion in the program.

Then again, I ended up liking Vornov's long program and that is the MOST insane musical cuts and choreography in history. --I guess the cohesion was that it was Vornov that was doing it. .

LOL, I actually don't hate the choreography or the music cuts (though they were terrible), at this point, as much as I first thought I did. Oddly, he kind of sold it. The costume, however...GAAAAAAH. I cannot unsee what I have seen. Campiness? I can deal with it. Wearing a horrific mesh and Pleather atrocity that is, frankly, an insult to my eyes? NO.

 

[Ophelia]

Well, Mao is doing Madame Butterfly for FS this year! And normally, I would totally agree with you that seeing a combination of Mao and Madame Butterfly is bad, and when few years ago, rumors surfaced that Mao was doing Madame Butterfly as an exhibition, I went on this board and complained about what a terrible idea that was, but... to be honest, this time around, I admit that I am guilty looking forward to seeing it! I think it's okay now because Mao's skating is no longer soft and pretty in a floaty butterfly kind of way, and, while still fluid, is now quite dramatic and strong, so while that story is totally *****, her version of Madame Butterfly is bound to show a divaesque Asian woman. Or so I imagine. And if you divorce the story from the music, the music is glorious and beautiful, so I will tolerate the storyline this time.

Madame Butterfly is such predictable and safe choice. There are way more Japanese-themed pieces to choose from, but then Asada's music choices have always been in the classical warhorse camp.

Plus, Mao has been really pristine about not whoring herself on the ice until now. No winking, blowing kisses, waving to judges, licking one's fingers, pumping hips, shaking boobs/reveaing boobs, etc., etc. Mao is three times World champion and Olympic silver medalist without ever having done any of that, so now, maybe she can afford to indulge herself and show she's a woman!

Rofl.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Please can we not use the word 'whoring' to describe female skaters' actions. That word is not really thought acceptable to even describe actual sex workers, let alone athletes, these days. If you wouldn't use that word to describe the male skaters who do 'sexy', I don't understand the double standard. One can critique without that.

 

[andromache]

Please can we not use the word 'whoring' to describe female skaters' actions. That word is not really thought acceptable to even describe actual sex workers, let alone athletes, these days. If you wouldn't use that word to describe the male skaters who do 'sexy', I don't understand the double standard. One can critique without that.

:thumbsup:

"Sexy" works fine as a word. No need to bring in demeaning language to describe certain skating styles, even ones that aren't your cup of tea.

 

[OS]

Plus, Mao has been really pristine about not whoring herself on the ice until now. No winking, blowing kisses, waving to judges, licking one's fingers, pumping hips, shaking boobs/reveaing boobs, etc., etc. Mao is three times World champion and Olympic silver medalist without ever having done any of that, so now, maybe she can afford to indulge herself and show she's a woman!

You know ... it actually take talent to do all of the above... and boobs.

In any case these things are not bad things at all IF the music calls for it. Some programs she does with more attempts doing all these things like her gala https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx8vp-2X2rM makes her more interesting and dynamic skater than in her competitive programs. i'd reward her VERY high PCS for it.

 

[ice coverage]

:thumbsup:

"Sexy" works fine as a word. No need to bring in demeaning language to describe certain skating styles, even ones that aren't your cup of tea.

My two cents:

The figurative usage of "whoring" in the post above (which was not mine) is not demeaning to women, IMO. Could have been applied equally to a man.
(A different type of figurative usage of "*****" is "media *****" -- which most definitely can describe a man or a woman. The figurative usage here means something else, but is comparable, IMO.)

And "whoring" in the figurative sense in the post above has a difference nuance than "sexy" -- IMO.
So "sexy" works fine as a random word meaning something else -- but not as a substitute description for the type of behavior referred to in the post above. (I am not saying that I am a fan of that type of behavior.)

ETA:

Forgot to say that I am a woman.
And I see that GS software has bleeped the noun version of the word under discussion :think:.​

 

[Scovies]

My two cents:

The figurative usage of "whoring" in the post above (which was not mine) is not demeaning to women, IMO. Could have been applied equally to a man.
(A different type of figurative usage of "*****" is "media *****" -- which most definitely can describe a man or a woman. The figurative usage here means something else, but is comparable, IMO.)

And "whoring" in the figurative sense in the post above has a difference nuance than "sexy" -- IMO.
So "sexy" works fine as a random word meaning something else -- but not as a substitute description for the type of behavior referred to in the post above. (I am not saying that I am a fan of that type of behavior.)

ETA:

Forgot to say that I am a woman.
And I see that GS software has bleeped the noun version of the word under discussion :think:.​

The original use of the word in this thread was this [bolding mine]:

Plus, Mao has been really pristine about not whoring herself on the ice until now. No winking, blowing kisses, waving to judges, licking one's fingers, pumping hips, shaking boobs/reveaing boobs, etc., etc. Mao is three times World champion and Olympic silver medalist without ever having done any of that, so now, maybe she can afford to indulge herself and show she's a woman!

That's... pretty gender-specific.

 

[ice coverage]

The original use of the word in this thread was this [bolding mine]:



That's... pretty gender-specific.

I had read the original post before writing my post.
The only part of the original post that is gender-specific is the part about boobs.
The references to winking, hip movement, etc., are not gender-specific. And male skaters have been known to exhibit the behavior unrelated to boobs.

Not trying to start WWIII on this topic.
Just saying that "whoring" is not interchangeable with "sexy." I can't think of an alternate word that would be synonymous -- or else I would suggest it here.

 

[andromache]

My two cents:

The figurative usage of "whoring" in the post above (which was not mine) is not demeaning to women, IMO. Could have been applied equally to a man.
(A different type of figurative usage of "*****" is "media *****" -- which most definitely can describe a man or a woman. The figurative usage here means something else, but is comparable, IMO.)

And "whoring" in the figurative sense in the post above has a difference nuance than "sexy" -- IMO.
So "sexy" works fine as a random word meaning something else -- but not as a substitute description for the type of behavior referred to in the post above. (I am not saying that I am a fan of that type of behavior.)

ETA:

Forgot to say that I am a woman.
And I see that GS software has bleeped the noun version of the word under discussion :think:.​

"Whoring" (and its noun version) have been historically used to demean women. It definitely still has a negative connotation and connection to female sex workers. The original post is describing what I would call sexy behavior and attributing it to a woman, and the use of the word "whoring" in that context definitely has a negative connotation, akin to the word "slutty." Don't use those words to describe anybody, especially an ice skater who is definitely not engaging in sex work of any kind.

Phrases like "media whoring" continue to use the word for sex work in a negative connotation. It's less bad than calling someone that word for being sexy, but still bad. There are just some words that we shouldn't use because of their history of being demeaning and negative connotation, IMO.

 

[dorispulaski]

GS does not allow either the w word or the s word.

If you want a synonym that won't be bleeped in software: flirtacious or coquettish. I would suggest meretricious, but that is just as demeaning a word as the original.

 

[ice coverage]

"Whoring" (and its noun version) have been historically used to demean women. It definitely still has a negative connotation and connection to female sex workers. The original post is describing what I would call sexy behavior and attributing it to a woman, and the use of the word "whoring" in that context definitely has a negative connotation, akin to the word "slutty." Don't use those words to describe anybody, especially an ice skater who is definitely not engaging in sex work of any kind.

Phrases like "media whoring" continue to use the word for sex work in a negative connotation. It's less bad than calling someone that word for being sexy, but still bad. There are just some words that we shouldn't use because of their history of being demeaning and negative connotation, IMO.

Sincere question:

Would you be offended if I wrote a post on GS saying that Ice Dancers X and Y had slaved over their step sequence all summer? Or if I made a comment about my own fatigue after slaving all week over a labor-intensive project at the office?

ETA, I guess another good question would be:

Would you be offended if I referred to X and Y's coach a slave-driver?​

Maybe you would be.
But for me, it is possible for a word to evolve beyond its historical origins.​

Granted, I am not descended from slaves.
But I am of Japanese descent, and I would not be offended or horrified if a sportswriter wrote that Carli Lloyd and the other Team USA women killed Team Japan in the World Cup soccer final this year. (Even though the Americans and Japanese were mortal enemies in WWII.)

"Sexy" lacks the nuance of "shamelessness" that I associate with "whoring." And both men and women (on and off ice) can be shameless.

I did not write the original post using the word "whoring." But in the context that it was used, I do not find it offensive. Just a way of expressing criticism of a particular type of behavior. (As is the case with "media *****.")

 

[Barb]

You know ... it actually take talent to do all of the above... and boobs.

In any case these things are not bad things at all IF the music calls for it. Some programs she does with more attempts doing all these things like her gala https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx8vp-2X2rM makes her more interesting and dynamic skater than in her competitive programs. i'd reward her VERY high PCS for it.

Agree about boobs, but definitly it is not necessary talent for to do all of that, I know plenty of people who know to do it.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Well, I do find it offensive. And I too am a woman. Make of that what you will.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'd say it's wise not to flirt with words that some find offensive. Very seldom will someone feel offended for being overly respectful toward them. Even if a word isn't obscene or offensive that doesn't mean that some may find the demeaning nature of some words off putting. That's never good for an honest discussion.


Hey Doris...is the "S" word the one that looks very similar to sultry if we were playing the rearrange the letters game to make a new word?

 

[dorispulaski]

Yes, it is. (re sultry)

This is the site-owner's "house."

The censor is a reflection of the words she would prefer not to see used here.

When in doubt, it is never coureous or wise to use language that would offend the householder, whether you understand why the householder dislikes that type of language or not.

There is an old saying about this sort of behavior:

"Never speak about rope in the house of a man who has been hanged."

 

[ice coverage]

... This is the site-owner's "house."

The censor is a reflection of the words she would prefer not to see used here....

Gotcha, Doris.

For the record, I was merely saying that I had noticed the auto-censor in my post above. I wasn't complaining about it.
Just had never experienced the auto-censoring of that word ... because I had never included it in a post before.

Regarding words in general:

Whether words are "offensive" can be in the eye of the beholder (as so many things are).
One of the phrases that I happen to find offensive refers to a certain type of shirt (similar to a tank top) that is not uncommon for men -- incl. male athletes/skaters -- to wear. (Absolutely nothing wrong with wearing that type of shirt.)
Interesting to me that I do see the phrase used on GS (by others) from time to time. And I have never witnessed any outcry.​

Just musing. Not arguing with the GS censoring.

 

[dorispulaski]

If a word offends you, please say. People do indeed have different sensitivities, and if you don't tell us, we won't know.