2015-2016 Programs by Discipline

[Snow63]

I think what confuses people is that when they see "must be danced in the character of the Viennese Waltz" they think it means the skaters have to look like they're in a ballroom in Vienna. "Character" has nothing to do with the choice of music or costume. It just means that the skaters' movement has to resemble that of the Viennese Waltz (faster) instead of the Traditional Waltz (slower).

I can't say for everyone, but I don't think people who want to see more traditional waltzes want all the dancers to wear smokings and ballroom dresses and skate to Prokofiev or Khachaturyan, because this season there's no such requirements, except for the music tempo. IMO ISU gave too much freedom in the SD this time, and there should be SOME requirements. Like I said, just a matter of taste, nothing else.

 

[solani]

I like that there's so much freedom for the dance SD this season, because last season's pasos took their toll on me. But I tought it was supposed to be a light waltz, viennese type (you can absolutely have that with modern music), some couples have a darker approach, I don't think the ISU intended that. But anyway, after a season without variation I'm happy about that.

 

[bramweld]

Well despite what some might think about the march portion their S/D I/Z look to have a very waltzy pulsation going to their Somebody to Love. Light, airy, powerful with very deep edges. I think they're one of the few, classic or modern approach aside that display that lilting quality you expect in the waltz. So it can happen but I think you have to be exceedingly careful with the music choice and you have to have the skills or put in the work. This is a challenging pattern. Its one thing to make it big and fast but its a whole other level to make the pattern sing. Let's see what W/P and P/C and the Shibs do.

 

[blancanieves]

I can't say for everyone, but I don't think people who want to see more traditional waltzes want all the dancers to wear smokings and ballroom dresses and skate to Prokofiev or Khachaturyan, because this season there's no such requirements, except for the music tempo. IMO ISU gave too much freedom in the SD this time, and there should be SOME requirements. Like I said, just a matter of taste, nothing else.

Well, there's plenty of requirements in terms of the elements and patterns, but the whole point of inventing the SD was to combine the old Original Dance (music and choreography choices vary) with the Compulsory Dance (same music and dance patterns). So by design there needs to be room for interpretation.

 

[Snow63]

Well despite what some might think about the march portion their S/D I/Z look to have a very waltzy pulsation going to their Somebody to Love. Light, airy, powerful with very deep edges. I think they're one of the few, classic or modern approach aside that display that lilting quality you expect in the waltz. So it can happen but I think you have to be exceedingly careful with the music choice and you have to have the skills or put in the work. This is a challenging pattern. Its one thing to make it big and fast but its a whole other level to make the pattern sing. Let's see what W/P and P/C and the Shibs do.

I agree. I actually like their pattern too.
From what I've seen so far Cappellini/Lanotte have best RW pattern. Perfect musicality and timing, but maybe it's just me. And yes, they have poorer base technique than I/Z.

Well, there's plenty of requirements in terms of the elements and patterns, but the whole point of inventing the SD was to combine the old Original Dance (music and choreography choices vary) with the Compulsory Dance (same music and dance patterns). So by design there needs to be room for interpretation.

Elements and patterns are the technical part of the dance. I was talking about requirements in terms of presentation and interpretation. My opinion stays, you're free to have yours.

 

[blancanieves]

Elements and patterns are the technical part of the dance. I was talking about requirements in terms of presentation and interpretation. My opinion stays, you're free to have yours.

I don't think we disagree.

Yes, there's specificity in how to achieve Key Points, etc., and then there's some creative space for deciding how to present a Waltz-style dance. I'm just rationalizing that without leaving that room for choice-making, teams wouldn't arrive at the diversity in interpretation that I guess the ISU wants to foster.

Then, it's up to judges to evaluate how those different interpretations work in terms of the already established PC scoring criteria.


Edited because someone pointed out that the Ravensburger pattern actually can be danced in any Waltz style this season.

 

[Astrid56]

If you expect this Waltz, to be like the Traditional Waltz, then you are in for a huge disappointment. Viennese Waltz. unlike the Waltz, is known for its quick turns and speed. But the biggest difference is speed. In terms of footwork and pattern, it is more challenging than the elegant and romantic Waltz. I think C/B chose a great music to show off this particular waltz.

Here are videos showing the difference _ both dances performed by the same dancers.

Waltz (known also as English or American or simply just Waltz) https://youtu.be/D9VwtXwClic

Viennese Waltz - https://youtu.be/psVx9ksqgLE

 

[Sugarpova]

wow I liked that a lot! suits Madison very much!

 

[Alba]

how is dark eyes modern? it's been around for ages

Well it might be seen as a "modern" approach for a waltz. However, I was speaking in general because there are other couples that have chosen a different approach from the traditional waltz.

Yes, there's specificity in how to achieve Key Points, etc., and then there's some creative space for deciding how to present a Viennese Waltz-style dance. I'm just rationalizing that without leaving that room for choice-making, teams wouldn't arrive at the diversity in interpretation that I guess the ISU wants to foster.

Then, it's up to judges to evaluate how those different interpretations work in terms of the already established PC scoring criteria.

Agreed. :thumbsup:

 

[Astrid56]

Well, there's plenty of requirements in terms of the elements and patterns, but the whole point of inventing the SD was to combine the old Original Dance (music and choreography choices vary) with the Compulsory Dance (same music and dance patterns). So by design there needs to be room for interpretation.

Totally agree! I think ISU decided the change also to eliminate the doldrums of dancing the same patterns to the same music (Compulsory Dance) so they decided to combine the OD and CD giving the skaters more room for interpretative presentation and creativity.

 

[Astrid56]

Well it might be seen as a "modern" approach for a waltz. However, I was speaking in general because there are other couples that have chosen a different approach from the traditional waltz.

Viennese Waltz is NOT the traditional Waltz although it is the oldest ballroom dance done today.

 

[Alba]

Viennese Waltz is NOT the traditional Waltz although it is the oldest ballroom dance done today.

I meant Viennese indeed, specifically The Ravensburger Waltz. Traditional, conservative approach, call it as you want, like this one for example.

 

[Snow63]

If you expect this Waltz, to be like the Traditional Waltz, then you are in for a huge disappointment. Viennese Waltz. unlike the Waltz, is known for its quick turns and speed. But the biggest difference is speed. In terms of footwork and pattern, it is more challenging than the elegant and romantic Waltz. I think C/B chose a great music to show off this particular waltz.

Here are videos showing the difference _ both dances performed by the same dancers.

Waltz (known also as English or American or simply just Waltz) https://youtu.be/D9VwtXwClic

Viennese Waltz - https://youtu.be/psVx9ksqgLE

And you got me completely wrong, I didn't mean this as traditional waltz vs Viennese waltz. All I was trying to say is that I want dancers to skate RW pattern to actual waltz music as a part of an actual waltz dance, and not as part of exhibition number masked as short dance. Diversity is good, that's what free dances for, and march, foxtrot, polka parts of SD.
I don't see a point of repeating myself anymore.

 

[Layback11]

How is Dark Eyes modern? It's been around for ages

Dark Eyes isn't, but did you see the dance team skating to We Will Rock You? Or the five other pairs skating to rock? Or the juniors skating to Meghan Trainor?

Modern-Music-To-Make-You-Look-Edgy-And-Different is definitely the interpretation de jour. (Well, the Meghan Trainor pair weren't edgy, but that was about as modern as a waltz gets.) I prefer a nice traditional waltz myself, but it would get boring if EVERYONE did that, so as long as it's actually a waltz, it's fine by me.

The one infuriating thing about this pattern, however, is that not a single team has used Roses From the South and that is upsetting. It is CLEARLY the best waltz.

Kidding. Matter of opinion.

 

[Alba]

And you got me completely wrong, I didn't mean this as traditional waltz vs Viennese waltz. All I was trying to say is that I want dancers to skate RW pattern to actual waltz music as a part of an actual waltz dance, and not as part of exhibition number masked as short dance. Diversity is good, that's what free dances for, and march, foxtrot, polka parts of SD.
I don't see a point of repeating myself anymore.

I get what you're saying Snow but for sure these skaters are following some directives otherwise you wouldn't see so many different approaches. Funny enough it might be that those who went for a more "traditional" approach could have an advantage now because they are few.

 

[Snow63]

I get what you're saying Snow but for sure these skaters are following some directives otherwise you wouldn't see so many different approaches. Funny enough it might be that those who went for a more "traditional" approach could have an advantage now because they are few.

Thank you.
Imagine if Papadakis/Cizeron will go classic this year and shock everyone again
And I think it's very possible that teams who took traditional approach this season will get higher marks from older judges.

 

[Alba]

Thank you.
Imagine if Papadakis/Cizeron will go classic this year and shock everyone again
And I think it's very possible that teams who took traditional approach this season will get higher marks from older judges.

Yep. It will be very interesting to see how the judges will react once the GP's starts. A lot will depend from the execution though.

 

[4everchan]

that's not what confuses me.... i do not care about costumes, looks, traditions etc... but at the same time, even if it's in 3/4 the piece doesn't sound like a waltz at all, the patterns look kind of randomly adjusted to the piece itself and it doesn't gel... what for me makes a strong SD, aside from technically being sound is that the patterns work harmoniously with the music... not like it could have been put on any random piece in 3/4 but that it corresponds both to the music and to the sequence of steps itself... yes, it would be boring to have 40 SD in ballroom classical style.. i do not wish for this... but this C/B SD goes so far in the other direction that it's even worse in my opinion...

I think what confuses people is that when they see "must be danced in the character of the Viennese Waltz" they think it means the skaters have to look like they're in a ballroom in Vienna. "Character" has nothing to do with the choice of music or costume. It just means that the skaters' movement has to resemble that of the Viennese Waltz (faster) instead of the Traditional Waltz (slower).

 

[Astrid56]

I meant Viennese indeed, specifically The Ravensburger Waltz. Traditional, conservative approach, call it as you want, like this one for example.

It is what it is. The Ravensburger Waltz is like Viennese Waltz and was invented by German Ice dancers _ a brother-sister duo - Angelika and Erich Buck and first performed in West Germany 1973 Championship. And Viennese Waltz and the traditional Waltz may look alike but they are done differently. You can ask any expert in Ballroom dancing and they will tell you the same thing - I am not making this up merely to justify my opinion.

 

[Alba]

It is what it is. The Ravensburger Waltz is like Viennese Waltz and was invented by German Ice dancers _ a brother-sister duo - Angelika and Erich Buck and first performed in West Germany 1973 Championship. And Viennese Waltz and the traditional Waltz may look alike but they are done differently. You can ask any expert in Ballroom dancing and they will tell you the same thing - I am not making this up merely to justify my opinion.

I know very well the Ravensburger Waltz. I've been following FS and ice dance in particular since 1984.
I really don't know what you're trying to say here. That the Viennese Waltz it's "modern", a contemporary dance? When I say traditional I mean following certain patterns, in accord with tradition. Typical with something that has been done. La pizzica for example is a traditional dance in italy, tarantella etc. I think it's very clear what I'm saying here.

The problem that some people are having (they can correct me if I'm wrong) with some of the SD this season it has mostly to do with the music&theme choices. Not so much with the choreo per se because the pattern it's RW for everybody. What they are saying is what Freddy Mercury, Jeff Buckley, Beatles, Gypsy, Baroque music etc., got to do with Viennese Waltz? After all it's not like we listen to these music and we think: Oh that reminds me a Viennese waltz.
It's not that they don't get the idea and the programs. They understand that and they know that some of the couples wants to take a different approach - call it modern, unusual, bizarre, edgy, provocative, or whatever - instead of skating to a more "traditional" Viennese waltz music. It's just that they are not convinced and for them these couples are not expressing the Viennese Waltz. It is a legitimate criticism. I myself love some of these ideas but there is nothing wrong if others don't. It is a waltz they are doing though. Just not their cup of tea. Let's see what the judges think.