2015 Junior Worlds Ladies Short Program March 4

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yes, that part is discretionary. (Unfortunately so, in my opinion.) But a good judge will not give an obviously poor jump with tano good GOE. A shady or bad one might.

Point is, the tano craze that we're seeing should not be a problem if the judging is good. That's the case for most things in this system though.

Well said

 

[andromache]

Yeah, the depth of the current field, especially in Russia, is probably why they do this. (For the past eight years, ladies had a few top skaters--Mao, Yuna, and to a lesser degree Miki and Carolina--and then a big drop-off. Whereas there are now there are about seven skaters in Russia alone who could contend for the top). But like you, I think 'tano isn't equal to Liza-esque jumps, Yulia-esque spins, or Elena-esque performance ability.

If Evgenia and Serafima want to move to the top, I'd rather see them work on their jumps, spins, performance ability, ect. rather than a 'tano/backloading short-cut. Especially when the sheer volume of 'tano is detrimental to the program as a whole. Evgenia could score good GOE on her jumps if she works on her flow/landings (a great overall effect when coupled with her flexibility/extension), and Serafima can channel her innate athleticism (maybe never the best landings, but she can score good GOE by working further on the height/power of her jumps).

I suggest a limit of two 'tano's per program, and no second-half bonus for more than 2 jumping passes in the SP (and 5 in the LP).

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. The top senior ladies this year are doing very well with balanced programs--it'll be a shame if the top juniors moving up next season are able to beat comparable performance with the "bonuses" that unbalanced programs allow.

This isn't to say anything against Serafima or Evgenia. They're super talented young ladies and I'm excited for their senior debuts, but I think it'll be a detriment to the sport if several tanos per program or heavily-backloaded programs prove to be a deciding factor in results. A simple rules change will make sure this doesn't happen, as well as ultimately improve their skating .

 

[yyyskate]

How should you use tano jump, please watch Yuna's Gershwin and Mao's swan lake.

 

[yyyskate]

also, evgenia will be competitive even without any tano or back-loading among Russian girls, hers jumps/spin are relatively decent, and her musicality, grace, and artistry is superb. As a total package, she is very competitive among Russian girls.

 

[Interspectator]

also, evgenia will be competitive even without any tano or back-loading among Russian girls, hers jumps/spin are relatively decent, and her musicality, grace, and artistry is superb. As a total package, she is very competitive among Russian girls.

ITA! I don't mind a few tanos in the programs. It is impressive. But jump quality should come first.
I love watching Evgenia though.

 

[Meoima]

To be fair they can use as many tano as they want, as their trademark. But if their jumps have almost no flow (like Serafima) or wong/flat edge (both of them) then I'd say the judges shouldn't give them too high GOE. Tano/rippon/difficult entries SHOULD ONLY be counted in GOE when there is quality in the elements IMO.

 

[kwanatic]

I suggest a limit of two 'tano's per program, and no second-half bonus for more than 2 jumping passes in the SP (and 5 in the LP).

ITA 100%. We need to print this and send it directly to the ISU ASAP!

Personally I find excessive use of the tano feature to be a little gratuitous. I liken it to Julia's early choreography where every 5 seconds she was pulling her leg over her head. By the 3rd time I see it it's like, "Okay, I get it. You can do that. Do something else now."

That's how I feel when I see these girls adding the tano feature to almost every single jump in the program. I think a limit of 2 times per program is all you need to have, otherwise we're going to see what happened with the Biellmann position back in 2005/06 until whenever they put a limit on how many times you can do it...or Shiz in 2006 with her 18 donut spins in one program. Point whoring by overusing one feature at every available opportunity seems a little cheap IMO.

I don't mind Evgenia's tanos so much b/c they aren't as distracting, but Serafima's jumps are wild-looking anyway and throwing an arm up does nothing to help how unattractive her jumps look in the air or on the landings. I appreciate a lot about Serafima's skating (speed, power, good expression, etc.) but her jumps are kinda ugly to me. Evgenia's jumps look like perfection next to hers...though to be fair, Evgenia's jumps aren't all that spectacular. She doesn't get nearly as much power/amplitude as Serafima does. She does have decent flow however and that's a plus. Both of them have that funky pseudo-loop entrance to their lutz, which is fooling no one BTW:sarcasm:. Eteri needs to teach them some proper technique on that jump...

Evgenia and Serafima have nice moments in their SPs but then at the end they cram all 3 jumping passes into about 30 seconds. It's just so lopsided and painfully obvious they're whoring points again. If you want to back-load, fine. Make the system work for you, but the least you can do is make a better effort to integrate the jumps into the program better than that. You have 1:25 after the halfway point and you cram all 3 jumps into 30 seconds? That's just lazy IMO.:disapp:

 

[FSGMT]

Sadly, not the best competition overall: even Evgenia who placed first didn't skate at her best (even if it was her SB, she has performed this program a lot better at least twice). However, she was clearly the best. Serafima's jumps look almost scary at this point: it's frustrating to remember how controlled and elegant they were at the beginning of the season Wakaba was not underscored for me, since her flip could have easily received the e, but she could have received more positive GOE for the Lutz and she deserved higher PCS than Sakamoto for sure :shocked:

 

[gotoschool]

To be fair they can use as many tano as they want, as their trademark. But if their jumps have almost no flow (like Serafima) or wong/flat edge (both of them) then I'd say the judges shouldn't give them too high GOE. Tano/rippon/difficult entries SHOULD ONLY be counted in GOE when there is quality in the elements IMO.

I actually like it better when Evgenia places tanos in her jumps because she has the most beautiful ones, especially when she alternates them with a regular jump in combination. For me, the angles and positions she creates with her arms are aesthetically pleasing and add another dimension to her skating. So, I don't look at them as just ringing the bells for points on the COP pinball machine. Like the poster FSGMT wrote, I thought Evgenia's SP was clearly the best, so in terms of how many points she is ahead of everyone else I think the scoring was close to right, though I think Wakaba should have had a couple of more points. Her jumps to me are just so beautiful when she lands them clean, as are Evgenia's.

However, I did enjoy her performance just a little bit more at the Junior Grand Prix Final. Still I thought her performance was wonderful. I don't mind the backloading in Evgenia's program because she has some nice intricate and musical steps and transitions in the first part of her SP, so it doesn't really break the continuity for me. I do think she would have had a better chance of landing a cleaner lutz, if she had done the jump on fresh legs near the first of the program though.

 

[ordinary person]

And the russians are highly overscored as usual, could it be even more tedious and dreadful?
One more reason why this sport has so many empty seats in the crowds apart from all the obscenity people are turning a blind eye to.

 

[Sugarpova]

Come on! I'm sure that if you were given bunch of names in languages you're not familiar with, you would make some mistakes as well!

oh believe me I would make mistakes!
dont mind me. Its all my philological education gets in the way too much because Im pretty ignorant about FS specifics & watch as a hobby so I probably concentrate on other things surrounding the competitions more than I should.:

Maybe they should also be given the pronunciations next to the names.

Though then again we'll probably miss it.

yep imo it would be great (& for sports commentators to check them out) I'm always curious how chinese/japanese names are pronounced for example. or american ones even like I had no idea how Scimeca/Knierim is pronounced

Little thoughts from the rink.
Unfortunately, I was able to come only for 2 last groups. Just some comments.

Elizabet TURZYNBAEVA - this girl is so small. I liked her flow, shame about mistakes.
Da Bin CHOI - I will out it out here -> i do not like poor posture. The elements were nice, but there was nothing between them.
Karen CHEN - When she is on, when jumps are there, you cannot take your eyes of her. However, the first jump was off-> no combo. We felt like she could have added double there. Her spins are impressive! And yes -> speed, loads of speed and ice coverage.
Maria SOTSKOVA - Just as she stepped on ice I saw how nervous she was. Again, combo! That fall was so unfortunate. Then she had a stumble on her step sequence... I guess Tallinn is not her city.
Yuka NAGAI - Lovely, calm performance. I am not a crazy fan of hers, but she looks really lovely on ice.

Anastasia GALUSTYAN - She did her job, landed the jumps. The overall impression is that she does not have good basics...
Nicole RAJICOVA - Clean performance(if I remember correctly) with lovely smile. For me the highlight was her axel and her smile
Jenni SAARINEN - I was in the event with my Finnish friend(she was a synchronized skater, even a world champion and really rooted for her. Some scary jumps (especially the last one, she had scary body positiob in the air) but overall I liked that she has energetic music and nice performance.
Serafima SAKHANOVICH - She scared everyone with the combo. At first we were like "yes, landed" and then "stand, dont fall". I loove her flow and I could finally see it live.
Evgenia MEDVEDEVA - What a lovely ending of ladies SP! Evgenia was amazing, even with that lutz. I did not even see how half of the programm has passed(as her jumps are in second half). Lovely control, spins, jumps, steps! I love everything about her and i was not disappointed seeing her live for the first time! And she deserved huge applause from the crowd!

P.S. I saw myself in the stream! Yay! xD

thanks a lot for your reports (here & in the pairs thread)
Its great to have this kind of experience!

 

[Florentina]

oh believe me I would make mistakes!
dont mind me. Its all my philological education gets in the way too much because Im pretty ignorant about FS specifics & watch as a hobby so I probably concentrate on other things surrounding the competitions more than I should.:

To me it's not so much about making some mistakes when pronouncing the names. Being able to pronounce names from so many different languages correctly would really be too much to ask. But still sometimes it sounds like it's the first time the announcer even sees the name. You almost hear that he/she is thinking while looking at the sheet with competitors: "WTH, how is THAT name pronounced???" That probably could be helped with some more preparation. I totally understand commentars/announcers don't have the time to learn to pronounce all names correctly. But say it with confidence at least.

 

[OS]

Both russians incredibly overscored, why does sima get 10 pts more than sotskova? And zheniya should get like all the penalties on her Lutz. Forcing an edge thru the loop technique? And why has she never gotten called on the edge? I used to like her but this is ridiculous.

Isn't it sad I didn't even need to look at the competition to predict likely outcome when I just have to look at the makeup of the judging panel? Alexander Lakernik presiding over the tech panel in particular. I also detect there seems some sort of conscientious effort on behalf of isu to bring back the skating back to Europe, guess we will see how that turn out

 

[NaVi]

Isn't it sad I don't even need to look at the competition to predict likely outcome when I just have to look at the makeup of the judging panel? Alexander Lakernik presiding over the tech panel in particular. I also detect there seems some sort of conscientious effort on behalf of isu to bring back the skating back to Europe, guess we will see how that turn out

While I personally think Medvedeva was a smidge overscored as I think she skated a little better at the GPF(and I only really care because now this skate and not the GPF is the record now), I saw nothing egregious about the judging.

 

[Watermelondrea]

How come sima didn't get -3 on her combo?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

How come sima didn't get -3 on her combo?

Why would she? Are you suggesting that her and Wakaba should have received -3 for step outs?

 

[Leonardo]

textbook flip should be on a shallow inside edge(not deep inside edge, which will cause other problems, such as rolling on whole blade, mule kick, pre-rotate etc.), the most important is that flip jumping pass circle is along with the rotation, whereas lutz is counter the rotation. as it shows clearly on ice tracing. wakaba's flip, after her 3 turn, she has problem with holding a secure shallow inside edge, wobbles (this is not good, she needs to improve, ) and deserved a ! edge call, but if you look at her ice tracing, the whole jumping pass circle is still along with the rotation, it is completely different from lip jumpers (e.g. Miki Ando) who will leave a counter ice tracing. Comparing wakaba's flip mechanic to her lutz mechanic, which is completely different. She can clear distinguish a flip to a lutz.
whereas, evgenia here in this comp, her flutz mechanic is almost similar to her flip mechanic (except she forced an outside edge before her flutz jump). The extend of her mistake is bigger than Wakaba's. if her flutz looked similar to Polina's flip, then she should get edge call, whereas Polina should not.
If centain flutzer know that they will only get ! calls and almost got the whole credit of a correct edge jump, they will keep their flutz, whereas, other skaters(also has edge problems) are not so sure they won't get called or a ! call, they will need to think of a way to change either their combo or solo jump.
Every year, there is a required solo jump type for junor is to enforce skaters to learn correct technique, this year, it is "lutz" years, but a flutzer wins all junior comp, the intention of this regulation seems pointless...

Totally agreed. There's no point to require a solo jump type to encourage correct technique when the top 2 skaters win all the junior competitions with a totally clear flutz (even if they try to hide it). Sometimes Zhenya gets a !, but not always, and she only got a "e" at one competition in France. Sima has a clear flutz as well, but usually gets away with it. Yulia also had a clear flutz but most of the times the judges didn't care at all.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Totally agreed. There's no point to require a solo jump type to encourage correct technique when the top 2 skaters win all the junior competitions with a totally clear flutz. Sometimes Zhenya gets a !, but not always, and she only got a "e" at one competition in France. Sima has a clear flutz as well, but usually gets away with it. Yulia also had a clear flutz but most of the times the judges didn't care at all.

Why only focus on the top two? Wakaba clearly was on the wrong edge and I provided video evidence of this. Somehow she only got ! instead of that "e" too yet no one is complaining......I certainly don't care that she got away with one but let's be truthful and tell the whole story. In fact the top four all had edge calls. What your neglecting to mention is that the top 3 especially have way better presentation/SS/performance/spins/etc.....than the rest of the field and are placed pretty accurately in that regard by most accounts. I find it incredibly oversimplified to suggest that only two girls edges on a lutz take off should determine the final placements when figure skating is so much more than that. If you have any suggestions for jumps for me to edit and look at please feel free to offer them up. I find that much more informative than blank statements like so and so usually lips/flutzes/etc..

 

[Leonardo]

Why only focus on the top two? Wakaba clearly was on the wrong edge and I provided video evidence of this. Somehow she only got ! instead of that "e" too yet no one is complaining......I certainly don't care that she got away with one but let's be truthful and tell the whole story. In fact the top four all had edge calls. What your neglecting to mention is that the top 3 especially have way better presentation/SS/performance/spins/etc.....than the rest of the field. I find it incredibly oversimplified to suggest that only two girls edges on a lutz take off should determine the final placement. If you have any suggestions for jumps for me to edit and look at please feel free to offer them up

You missed my point, I actually don't care about the results of this competition. I think the top two probably deserved their placements, the point is: they are not penalized for their mistakes as much as they should. Wakaba got a "e" many times, and lost a lot of points, including in her jump combination in the SP. That's why I didn't mention her. And I don't agree that Wakaba's edge mistake is worse than the russian's flutzes, on the contrary, wakaba's edge is more flat and close to an inside edge (with a flip technique) than the russian's flutzes with a clear flip technique.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

You missed my point, I actually don't care about the results of this competition. I think the top two probably deserved their placements, the point is: they are not penalized for their mistakes as much as they should. Wakaba got a "e" many times, and lost a lot of points, including in her jump combination in the SP. That's why I didn't mention her. And I don't agree that Wakaba's edge mistake is worse than the russian's flutzes, on the contrary, wakaba's edge is more flat and close to an inside edge (with a flip technique) than the russian's flutzes with a clear flip technique.

Wakaba has only received one "e" this season in the SP and one in the FS. Zhenia has received far more than Wakaba in fact. 4 full on "e" calls on the JGP this season and quite a few ! like in the video at GPF which I provided.I still feel that in that case she was on an unclear edge and ! is fair but it is really close and I wouldn't argue a tech panels decision to call it "e". Sorry but Wakaba's lip is just as punishable as anyone's flutz. Especially considering how easy it is to see. Be fair please.