2015 Skate Canada Ladies Free Skate

[sabinfire]

Duhamel and Radford have made an effort to improve on their artistry and continue to incorporate more difficulty and intricacy and transitions into their programs.

D/R would first need to have artistry, before they can start improving it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm going to step up and defend Liza here:yes:

I don't care what anyone says. If Liza had gone clean in both the SP and the FS she would beat Ashley. Maybe that's a lot to ask of Liza but after last season it's not completely unheard of. While Liza doesn't offer a lot on the artistry side I'm not so sure Ashley is that far ahead of her as some here seem to allude to. It is true that Liza may have been given generous PCS scores ...I don't think Ashley should be excluded from that conversation either She delivered but if we're going to call into question Liza's presentation...should we not also consider the lack of complexity with Ashley's?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

D/R would first need to have artistry, before they can start improving it.

They do have artistry. Otherwise they wouldn't be World Champions.

Sorry 'bout it.

 

[Snow63]

They do.

They're World Champions.

Sorry 'bout it.

Same for Liza.

Sorry 'bout it.

Edit: Oh, I'm sorry. I caught your edit.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Same for Liza.

Sorry 'bout it.

Edit: Oh, I'm sorry. I caught your edit.

I ain't sorry about Liza winning Worlds. Her main competition was Miyahara and Radionova and she outskated both of them, especially with that fab short program. But her programs this year are comparatively meh...

 

[Snow63]

I ain't sorry about Liza winning Worlds. Her main competition was Miyahara and Radionova and she outskated both of them, especially with that fab short program. But her programs this year are comparatively meh...

Here we go again. That's where we started at. This system is working, and let's not pretend Mishin is the only one who's doing it. And actually get rewarded for it just the same as Liza.
And I'm not disagreeing with you about her program, but I disagree with people who claim she should get 5s and 6s for PCS. Juniors, who's not very solid on their skates are getting more.

And she outskated not only Miyahara and Radionova, but the whole currect field (except Mao, for obvious reasons), including Gold and Wagner and everyone else.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And I'm not disagreeing with you about her program, but I disagree with people who claim she should get 5s and 6s for PCS. Juniors, who's not very solid on their skates are getting more.

Juniors have more transitions than Liza does in her program. Why wouldn't they get a higher score.

 

[Snow63]

Juniors have more transitions than Liza does in her program. Why wouldn't they get a higher score.

Maybe, then it will be easy as cake for them to become World Champions in the future. They just need to add to their transitions everything else.

 

[andromache]

Many of us from our observations (and quite a few of us are fans of Liza's) have noted that Liza's program seemed very empty. A few others disagree. If I wasn't working on my MA exam this week, I would try to count the number of transitions/steps/choreographic moments in both Liza and Ashley's programs to see what shakes out as far as this debate goes. Why not do this with some objectivity instead of just bickering?

Alternatively, the people who start trolling at any criticism of Liza can just accept that their favorite skater had some flawed programs at SC. I notice no one here is insisting that Ashley has brilliant jumps that are rotated every single time or amazing spins.

Not all skaters are fantastic at everything and that's okay, but they should be scored according to what they put on the ice.

 

[Snow63]

Alternatively, the people who start trolling at any criticism of Liza can just accept that their favorite skater had some flawed programs at SC. I notice no one here is insisting that Ashley has brilliant jumps that are rotated every single time or amazing spins.

Not all skaters are fantastic at everything and that's okay, but they should be scored according to what they put on the ice.

If you're talking about me, you obviously haven't read my posts. Her program is empty, no one denies that. The point was that with clean skate and difficult technical content skaters often get higher PCS marks than they should. It was an answer to CSG's post that it's Mishin's strategy. Liza is not the first one, and definitely is not the last who gets rewarded for that. :confused2: You can call this statement a 'trolling' if you want, it doesn't mean it's not truth.

Is this fair? Probably not. Will this ever chagne? Probably not. So we have to either deal with it, or just stop caring.

 

[andromache]

If you're talking about me, you obviously haven't read my posts. Her program is empty, no one denies that. The point was that with clean skate and difficult technical content skaters often get higher PCS marks than they should. It was an answer to CSG's post that it's Mishin's strategy. Liza is not the first one, and definitely is not the last who gets rewarded for that. :confused2: You can call this statement a 'trolling' if you want, it doesn't mean it's not truth.

You're fine! I'm referring to some nastiness in the competition threads from over the weekend.

As for your point, I agree with you that it's not only Liza and Mishin...but I really wish the judges would stop rewarding it. TES=elements. PCS=the stuff in between. Liza definitely deserves all the points the judges want to give her on her jumps, but those points shouldn't bleed into the PCS. I'm hoping the fact that she received lower PCS than Ashley this weekend means the judges are recognizing that, and that it wasn't simply a consequence of skating early.

 

[Snow63]

You're fine! I'm referring to some nastiness in the competition threads from over the weekend.

As for your point, I agree with you that it's not only Liza and Mishin...but I really wish the judges would stop rewarding it. TES=elements. PCS=the stuff in between. Liza definitely deserves all the points the judges want to give her on her jumps, but those points shouldn't bleed into the PCS. I'm hoping the fact that she received lower PCS than Ashley this weekend means the judges are recognizing that, and that it wasn't simply a consequence of skating early.

Yes it's sad. And not only in singles. In ice dance situation is much worse, because top teams got highest PCS for their past achievents more often than not. And the PCS cusion is so big 3-4 points, that it's impossible for other teams to beat them only with high TES mark. But like I said, it's the way this sport is.
As for Liza, I think it was exactly a consequence of skating early. With consistent clean skates she will get higher marks.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Look at judges 5 and 6 for Liza :hopelessness:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpcan2015/gpcan2015_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I Agree with judge #1 for Liza and judge #2 for Ashley.

 

[FSGMT]

Look at judges 5 and 6 for Liza :hopelessness:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpcan2015/gpcan2015_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I Agree with judge #1 for Liza and judge #2 for Ashley.

You agree with a 7.50 for CH when there is no choreography at all while Ashley receives just half a point more? (it's not that Ashley should receive a lot more than 8, but if Ashley receives 8 then Lisa's program deserves at best 6)

BTW, is Lisa injured or something? Because I read a lot of posts about her being so good to deliver what she did etc but I must have missed something...

 

[Blades of Passion]

^

Anyone who gives Tukt's layback spin a +2 can not be agreed with, by definition.

 

[jajoana]

I really hate to even type this, but if she performs the program like she did here & still becomes WC for the second time, then that's a real shame in my eyes. Also let's not forget Mao- she can match Liza's 3A & I bet she'll get higher PCS if both are on par technically.

I can be mistaken, but even during test skates the programme seemed much more complicated and rich.
What we saw at SC was her mortal combat for podium. Not a perfomace, not a programme. And I can't blame her and her team for having done that. They just played by the rules.
If she is in the same condition at Worlds, she won't win the title again (unless everyone meltdowns, which I don't want to happen). If she's fine, we'll see a completely different execution (remember her last season FP at Euros and SP at Worlds?).

Seems like Liza's resting on her World Champion status and this should be a wake up call - the judges aren't just going to give her victories.

We can never know. I wouldn't blame any athlete for not doing his or her best while trainings and expecting the judges to be loyal according to previous achivements. People are not machines and anything can happen. She says that this season is extremely hard for her and she's far from her best shape.
Let's enjoy the season. I'm really excited to see Mao Asada, and hope Liza will improve. Haven't seen Lena Radionova yet. Gracie Gold and Ashley Wagner have already shown lots of power, and there are other beautiful ladies who can surprise us. So we can expect a very interesting season.

 

[satine]

I can be mistaken, but even during test skates the programme seemed much more complicated and rich.
What we saw at SC was her mortal combat for podium. Not a perfomace, not a programme. And I can't blame her and her team for having done that. They just played by the rules.
If she is in the same condition at Worlds, she won't win the title again (unless everyone meltdowns, which I don't want to happen). If she's fine, we'll see a completely different execution (remember her last season FP at Euros and SP at Worlds?).

I don't doubt she can give more than what she gave here & I look forward to her improvement. That being said, I do respect her for still getting silver after that SP she gave Technically, that was a real turn-around from just the day before! I only wonder if something is wrong? Like FSGMT asked, is she injured or even sick? There are rumors of both. I don't know what to believe :hpull:

 

[jajoana]

is she injured or even sick?

According to Liza and mr Mishin interviews - no. The both admit that she is just not ready. And Liza says that her main goal is - Russian nationals ( http://fsrussia.ru/news/1358-elizav...edi-proizvolnaya-programma-budu-borotsya.html)
(on the other hand, it's only their words, we can trust them or not).

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

You agree with a 7.50 for CH when there is no choreography at all while Ashley receives just half a point more? (it's not that Ashley should receive a lot more than 8, but if Ashley receives 8 then Lisa's program deserves at best 6)

BTW, is Lisa injured or something? Because I read a lot of posts about her being so good to deliver what she did etc but I must have missed something...

I probably should have put "for the most part" or even just "the most" in my post. But if you add up those judges scores and then factor them by 1.6 then you'd get 58 PCS for Liza and 64 PCS for Ashley. While we could rearrange the numbers in a few different ways...about a 5pt difference in overall PCS seemed fair to me. That was my point.

I wasn't even considering GOE nor did I look at it too closely.

 

[matmuh]

what a great comeback from Elizabet :luv17: i think she deserved better PCS at least as high as SA considering she had a fall there, also congratz for having 2nd highest TES