2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating

[hanca]

I wanted to comment on this part, since I read an interview with Davydov recently. And he sounded like he was neither too fond of how his skating career turned to be, nor was he happy being stuck with Belarus passport. He's a coach at Sambo-70 now, and a fairly successful one at that. He is leading a strong junior group and his girls get a fair share of Grand Prix assignments. But while Belarus citizen enjoy unrestricted residence and work rights in Russia, it still is an impediment in his coaching career.

So I'm not telling that choosing to represent a different country is strictly wrong and nobody should do it, but this isn't something you just do, and it's a decision that comes with long term consequences.
.

It depends what the skater wants. If Davidov stayed in Russia, he may not have had the same opportunities Euros/Worlds as he had. He went to Olympics twice, which he would not have been sent if he didn't change countries. (The fact that he didn't grab this opportunity and had better result is another matter, but he can't blame anyone for that. That's his fault.) He may not be happy about the change of country now, but it did help him compete at the highest level. And in regards to being stuck with Belarus passport, in doesn't prevent him having succesful coaching career.

 

[Pracygr]

It depends what the skater wants. If Davidov stayed in Russia, he may not have had the same opportunities Euros/Worlds as he had. He went to Olympics twice, which he would not have been sent if he didn't change countries. (The fact that he didn't grab this opportunity and had better result is another matter, but he can't blame anyone for that. That's his fault.) He may not be happy about the change of country now, but it did help him compete at the highest level. And in regards to being stuck with Belarus passport, in doesn't prevent him having succesful coaching career.

Well, it's not that I was saying otherwise. I was just commenting on the idea of oh, you not making national team, just switch countries. It's never so simple. As for passport not preventing coaching career - even though people around Davydov know who he is and where he came from, not every bureaucrat does, and a 'foreign' coach will not be given same priority as a local one. He still got talent, his own and his student's, to compensate for that, but I'm sure he'd rather not fight an uphill battle all the time.

 

[Daniel1998]

Here's my report card on the top Russians. I lumped artistic abilities into one score and they are completely personal and to my own taste, so please don't take offense to those. It is hard to judge that objectively.

Evgenia Medvedeva:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: A-
Presentation: B+
Consistency: A
Reputation: A+

Some people might be surprised by the A- on jump quality, but her sketchy-at-times axel and her oft-ignored flutz were the reasons why I couldn't give her anything higher. Her spins are solid though not as impressive as some of the other Russians. I think her presentation this year was great- while she's not as refined as she will likely be later on, her skating is fluid and she actually recognizes her music. She is one of the most consistent athletes in the sport and there's nothing to be said about her reputation with the judges.

Anna Pogorilaya:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: B
Presentation: B-
Consistency: C+
Reputation: B

Anna's jumps are fairly impressive when she's on, because she gets massive height. Her jumps can be really loose in the air though, which often leads to problems on the landing. I don't know if the B on spin quality is accurate, but I honestly can't remember any of her spins as being amazing nor do I remember any of them as being bad; hence, the average score. Her presentation I think, leaves a bit to be desired. She is fast, but I'd like to see her acknowledge her music more and interpret with her face and body. Last time I did this I gave her a D or worse in consistency, and I raised that a bit here after Worlds but she still has to show me she can start performing that well on a regular basis.

Elena Radionova:
Jump Quality: B-
Spin Quality: A-
Presentation: C+
Consistency: A-
Reputation: B

I've never really been a fan of Radionova's jumps- while they have decent height, her landings are almost always scratchy and have no speed. Her axel in particular is not very pretty at all. She's a fast spinner and her layback is still pretty but she is so thin, and especially in that sit spin where she raises one arm up into the sky, her boniness can make the positions unappealing. While Radionova does sell her programs, I find her skating too wild and flail-y to really enjoy her. Elena, HOLD YOUR LINES. She is more consistent than most of the Russians though, which is commendable.

Yulia Lipnitskaya:
Jump Quality: C+
Spin Quality: A+
Presentation: B+
Consistency: C-
Reputation: C

Yulia's jumps have never been her strong suit, and while I did see some improvement this year, they still don't generate very much height. She has been known for her spins and they were as good as ever this year. She does so many difficult positions with so much speed. I find Lipnitskaya one of the prettiest Russians to watch on ice- her skating is nice and I usually love the music she selects. Right now she does not have the consistency nor the base value to compete with the other Russians, but hopefully a coaching change will help her for the better.

Liza Tuktamysheva:
Jump Quality: A
Spin Quality: C+
Presentation: C+
Consistency: D
Reputation: C+

I miss the Liza of old. Her 3A at worlds, her huge lutz, her consistency... All that went away this season. She doesn't have the good spins (her sit spin leaves a lot to be desired) nor the presentation (she reused a lot of similar choreographic moves this year in a less-than-coherent program), but her jumps alone are amazing. I'd love to see her regain her consistency and be the Russian to really start challenging Medvedeva.

Adelina Sotnikova:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: A
Presentation: B+
Consistency: D+
Reputation: C

I'd compare Adelina's jumps to Pogorilaya's in that they get very big height but they are wild in the air and unpredictable. Her lutz toe combo in practice this offseason looks good, and perhaps she is the one who will step up next season. Her spins are lovely and she is very flexible and fast. I've also noticed a strong improvement in presentation- her edges are much deeper and she connects to the music. If she regains her consistency and starts doing more difficult combinations I think we could see Sotnikova at many big competitions this year.

Thoughts? Do you agree or disagree?

 

[MalAssada]

As a big fan of Yulia, it saddens me that I bow down to you and agree. She is the one who brought me to the sport and I truly hope she gets back to Sochi shape. The one thing I do disagree with is Evgenia's A- in spins. While she is flexible, they often look awkward in my opinion, and I would give her a B+. Her spins are stable, but they don't look it - I am often afraid she will fall while perfoming her I spin.

 

[Shayuki]

I disagree with Julia having as strong presentation as Medvedeva. While she's advanced in it since 2012-2014 or so when she had absolutely no emotion or feeling, Julia's still not a natural performer while Medvedeva is.

Interestingly enough I'm probably more interested in the juniors than the seniors for next season, though I do hope for a Julia comeback, for Radionova to find a decent program and for Medvedeva to be a Russian lady who does not struggle after a big season for once.

 

[Pracygr]

Anna's jumps are fairly impressive when she's on, because she gets massive height. Her jumps can be really loose in the air though, which often leads to problems on the landing.

Don't think I can agree with that. Her air positions are very stable, with virtually no wobble or axis tilt. When she screws up her jumps it happens long before she gets into the air, she just misses her takeoff timings completely. And while bad technique can make certain aspects of your jumps unreliable, this degree of error can only be attributed to lack of concentration/mental preparedness (or maybe having too much of it). I don't know how you compound your marks, but to me mental preparedness isn't something I'd put into "jump quality" category.

 

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Evgenia Medvedeva:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: A-
Presentation: B+
Consistency: A
Reputation: A+


Anna Pogorilaya:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: B
Presentation: B-
Consistency: C+
Reputation: B


Elena Radionova:
Jump Quality: B-
Spin Quality: A-
Presentation: C+
Consistency: A-
Reputation: B
.

Yulia Lipnitskaya:
Jump Quality: C+
Spin Quality: A+
Presentation: B+
Consistency: C-
Reputation: C


Liza Tuktamysheva:
Jump Quality: A
Spin Quality: C+
Presentation: C+
Consistency: D
Reputation: C+


Adelina Sotnikova:
Jump Quality: A-
Spin Quality: A
Presentation: B+
Consistency: D+
Reputation: C


Thoughts? Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree with some opinions

Jump quality. If we take this season, Adelina's jump quality was nowhere near Medvedeva and Pogo. It was even worse than Radionova. To give Radionova B- is in general too harsh. She has a good technique she just had shaky landings. If she fixes tham next season, I see no issues with her jumps.

Spin quality. I would give Medvedeva a solid A. Her spins are well centered. As for non-Russians may be only Satoko may pretend to have better spins - I would personally argue even about her.

Presentation. Medvedeva A+ No one was at her level, may be Ashley at her best. If Medvedeva is B+, then Gracie what, C- ? Too harsh to both, imo. Pogo - solid A. Both her programs at the worlds had very strong presentation. Radionova B. Lipnitskaya A-. Sotnikova A for short and B for long. Liza - I agree that C is the grade.

Consistency. Medvedeva A+ - come on, she won everything! Pogo B+ - she had 3 clean competitions this season: Mordovia, nationals, and worlds. Definetely C is too harsh.

Reputation. I would give Medvedeva just A. A+ is Gracie who manages to get scores and placements which, I think, Medvedeva would not have got with the same level of performance. I would give both Radionova and Pogo A-. Radionova started higher but at the end they became equal. And I would give Liza a B. The very first time she skates a free program according to plan, she will get a proper score.

 

[SarahSynchro]

I was really impressed with Anna's haircutter-into-biellman spin this year, mainly for the speed. She's spinning SO FAST.

 

[Ares]

I was really impressed with Anna's haircutter-into-biellman spin this year, mainly for the speed. She's spinning SO FAST.

Her Combination Spin after double axel in SP with that difficult and original change of position into sit spin after having her upper body stuck together to her leg was spectacular too. And to make it look so effortless is another thing. She received + 1.07 GOE which is great but there wasn't enough reward compared to other top ladies who achieved similar score for that element in Boston. Everything she did there was top-notch and her interpretation and transitions exquisite. Scheherezade was excellent too but I was not awe-stricken like after Bolero.

 

[boskil]

I don't know if it's esthetics or technique, but I consider Elena (at least a little bit) better spinner than Evgenia.
Kudos to Anna, who made a visible progress this year, still spins are her weakness imo.

 

[narcissa]

If someone changed countries, he/she would need to stay within Russia so that he/she still gets the same level of coaching, access to facilities etc.

Elizabet did exactly that - she switched countries to Kazakhstan and found herself training in a shopping mall in Moscow because none of the Russian rinks would accept a non-Russian skater. Russia is not going to let you train there using all their resources while representing another country.

 

[Skater Boy]

Elizabet did exactly that - she switched countries to Kazakhstan and found herself training in a shopping mall in Moscow because none of the Russian rinks would accept a non-Russian skater. Russia is not going to let you train there using all their resources while representing another country.

Kaetlyn Osmond from Canada skates in the mall, that is her training grounds. I saw her and her coach there and then at the local Tim Horton's lol. She is still one of Canada's best ladies.

 

[AlexRus]

Elizabet did exactly that - she switched countries to Kazakhstan and found herself training in a shopping mall in Moscow because none of the Russian rinks would accept a non-Russian skater. Russia is not going to let you train there using all their resources while representing another country.

From Tursynbaeva's ISU bio

During the 2013/14 and 2014/15 seasons she trained in a shopping mall in Moscow for several months before finally being able to relocate for full-time training to Canada in spring 2015.

I don't know why.
Ivan Rigini (he moved from Russia to Italy) part of the time trains in Russia, not in a shopping mall but at normal training rink.
Pavel Ignatenko (BLR) trains in Russia with Russian coach. Deniss Vasiljevs too, at the same ice and with the same coach as Lipnitskaia.

And at Moscow and near Moscow there are several ice rinks where it is no problem to rent some time on commercial basics. Many Russian skaters who need more ice use these rinks.

"There is no such a thing as free lunch".
If skater does not pay for ice and coach - pays somebody else.
Russia pays only for Russian skaters, Latvia for Vasiljevs, Italy for Rigini etc.
If Kazakstan did not pay for Tursynbaeva it is not Russia's problem.

 

[silverfoxes]

Also Slavik Hayrapetyan skates for Armenia & trains with Urmanov in Sochi. I think Alina Fjodorova and Diana Nikitina (LAT) train part time in Russia too.

 

[winky97]

From Tursynbaeva's ISU bio

I don't know why.
Ivan Rigini (he moved from Russia to Italy) part of the time trains in Russia, not in a shopping mall but at normal training rink.
Pavel Ignatenko (BLR) trains in Russia with Russian coach. Deniss Vasiljevs too, at the same ice and with the same coach as Lipnitskaia.

And at Moscow and near Moscow there are several ice rinks where it is no problem to rent some time on commercial basics. Many Russian skaters who need more ice use these rinks.

"There is no such a thing as free lunch".
If skater does not pay for ice and coach - pays somebody else.
Russia pays only for Russian skaters, Latvia for Vasiljevs, Italy for Rigini etc.
If Kazakstan did not pay for Tursynbaeva it is not Russia's problem.

I read reports that during the season leading to the Olympics skaters for other countries that had previously been training in Russia had to go elsewhere to train after being told the ice in Russia was only for Russian skaters. I recall a story during the Olympics that an ice dance couple, I believe from France, had to stop training in Russia for this reason. Also I read around this same time in 2013 Russia did not allow its coaches to coach skaters skating for other countries and that this was a factor in Elizabet having to find a new coach since Eteri could not coach her anymore.

I realize that now some skaters skating for other countries train at least on a part time basis in Russia, but it is possibly that prior to Elizabet relocating to Canada, it was not possible for her to get ice and coaching in Russia once she changed to Kazakstan, not because Kazakstan did not fund it, but because of other obstacles that no longer exist.

 

[Krunchii]

Aren't rinks really crowded in Russia right now because of how popular figure skating is? I wouldn't be surprised if coaches and rinks gave priority to Russian skaters if that's the case. Maybe you have to pay more for training and ice time if you skate for a another country and skaters find themselves unable to afford that. Helping to subsidize their own skaters in their own country is normal, if they invest money they want returns, with limited resources it is what it is I guess.

 

[silverlake22]

Kaetlyn Osmond from Canada skates in the mall, that is her training grounds. I saw her and her coach there and then at the local Tim Horton's lol. She is still one of Canada's best ladies.

There is a difference though. Kaetlyn Osmond is on the Canadian National Team, receives funding for her training, and has an actual coach. In her case, the rink she trains at happens to be in a mall.

Tursynbaeva had to switch from training at Sambo 70 with Eteri's group of students to training at a mall with her mother as a coach and not receiving funding for her training from the RSF. It's quite a different situation from Osmond.

My guess is that skaters representing other countries can still train in Russia if they are able to fund their training independently, ie from the federation they represent, family money, or sponsors. The decision to train such athletes is probably left to the discretion of the coach, but I'd be willing to bet that these skaters probably train at unusual hours (early morning or later in the evening) to give priority to the Russian skaters.

Righini trains in Germany these days, but before he moved he may have been funding his own training. Galyustan trains in Moscow but I don't recognize her coach and I don't know which rink she trains out of, but I'm pretty sure it's not CSKA or Sambo where most of the top Russian singles skaters train, so there may be more flexibility.

Most likely Elizabet was training in a mall with her mom as her coach because they couldn't afford to stay with Eteri at Sambo without funding from the Federation. She didn't move to Canada right away so she probably raised funds for her training in the interim period or something (or the Kazakh fed offered her funding? I have no idea which athletics are supported by the state in Kazakhstan tbh )

 

[Alexz]

Yeah, the issue is not having the ice to train, there are a lot of ice rinks in Moscow. The issue is that Russian Figure Skating Feds don't like when skaters competing for other countries, training on the same rinks and at the same time as Russian skaters. Russian coaches are direct states employees. Sport facilities (and stuff) are built and supported by RSF's money. Several Russian athletes are sponsored by private Russian money as well.

I certainly sure a Russian figure skating fans and even officials would not mind when someone like Carolina Kostner training on the same ice with the same coaches as other Russian athletes, as long she is paying for it. The press and overly patriotic journalists are the main problem. Let's say if Carolina can skate clean and as usual beautifully, and would get first place, it would not be a big tragedy in Russia as long it's a fair play "sport" result.

However their internal sport politics and competition among Russian coaches or sport clubs might play a bigger role. Someone can whisper to Russian press something let's say about Carolina training on the same hours as Russians (hours paid by Russian state & fed) - the next day there would be few hooray-patriotic articles in the newspapers.. It is well-known that Russians coaches always were training foreign athletes, most of the time on the same rinks and the same time with other Russians athletes, as long they are doing it quietly Russians officials did not really mind of coaches making some more money on a side. They are free people, they can have private students as well as Russian skaters funded by the state. Politicians don't really care too. Until some journalist would not make it public and create the overly patriotic noise out of it, to make Russian public outraged for the specific purpose to influence internal political game within skating federation.

I think Russian FS fans don't really mind, as long as their favorites are not totally neglected or loosing competitions all the time miserably. So, before Olympics Russian coaches, officials and even TAT probably decided not to risk it with public opinion. But they were free to train other foreign athletes afterhours on any other available rink across Moscow. The Feds might made few hints to coaches about Sochi being special, because it's home Olympics after all and private tutoring won't be tolerated that year. Besides coaches are the same federal employees paid by state funds (and Russian taxpayers) and bonded by corporative contract. Conflict of interests, moral issues and all that jazz. They like their jobs, so decided not to risk it before Sochi.

It's financial issues too, basically Russian officials don't want to be seen publicly as sponsoring and financing non-Russian athletes. No one has a beef with Vasiljevs training with Yulia on the same time and rink under Urmanov wing. Even though the rink they train is a part of 'Sirius' - school for talented kids (not only athletes, also arts, science, literature and etc) - is sponsored by Russian feds. But if someone (like journalists) would make a big deal out of Vasilijevs winning too much, there would be the whole different story...

 

[silverfoxes]

Righini trains in Germany these days, but before he moved he may have been funding his own training. Galyustan trains in Moscow but I don't recognize her coach and I don't know which rink she trains out of, but I'm pretty sure it's not CSKA or Sambo where most of the top Russian singles skaters train, so there may be more flexibility.

Pavel Ignatenko trains at Sambo under Tsareva, and Eteri has had another Belarusian boy in her team for awhile now...Yakau Zenko. He is still a junior so it could be that the time will come when he has to move on, of course (but then, so do most of her Russian skaters ).

 

[Alexz]

Pavel Ignatenko trains at Sambo under Tsareva, and Eteri has had another Belarusian boy in her team for awhile now...Yakau Zenko. He is still a junior so it could be that the time will come when he has to move on, of course (but then, so do most of her Russian skaters ).

I PML'ed over your post first, but then I thought..
Perhaps Eteri should be just a junior coach. Her achievements with juniors and emerging into seniors skaters are remarkable. I'm even sure it is unprecedented. No coach before enjoyed such a big success. She seems to have a way with 10-17 years old youngsters. I would suggest a dedicated jumping specialist into her team, but everything else seems to be working great in her system and way of coaching. I hope Rusisans will carefully study this phenomena. However, I feel like her athletes should move on after 18 y.o. to personal coaches Urmanov or Arutyunyan to polish their talents. Eteri with her system always would be having some talented youngsters in the wings of Sambo school. We still do not so have much statistical data and competition track records made by Eteri-trained skaters, but we will see how Medvedeva and Tsurskaya would be doing upcoming season. Eteri and Mishin have even younger and even more impressive 12-14 years olds growing up.. Will see. This season gonna be exciting again.