2016-2017 Japanese Nationals Men's FS

[eta]

Uno's scoring potential was getting closer to Hanyu's. He has been getting similar GOE and PCS as Hanyu at international competitions. So it's certainly very possible that Uno can outscore Hanyu at national when Uno gives a better performance. If that happens, I can't imagine the outcry. This is the pre-olympic season. So feds try to boost their potential medal contenders as much as possible in order to prepare for the Olympics. JSF do favor and promote their junior skaters when they transition to seniors, especially the junior skaters that medaled or won junior world.

Similar PCS and GOEs? Sure. Justified? I say no. I'll not give examples because that would be "bashing" - not that it hasn't been discussed extensively already. And I'll never understand the +GOEs for the 3.5F both nationally and internationally.

Still not touching "JSF promotion of junior skaters"

 

[gsyzf]

Similar PCS and GOEs? Sure. Justified? I say no. I'll not give examples because that would be "bashing" - not that it hasn't been discussed extensively already. And I'll never understand the +GOEs for the 3.5F both nationally and internationally.

Still not touching "JSF promotion of junior skaters"

Feds support skaters that have shown good results. Jsf starts supporting their skaters when they start getting results at the junior level. Russian fed does the same thing to their ladies. Some Feds only start supporting their skaters when they have shown good results at the senior level, e.g. Skate Canada and usfsa. This is my observation.

ETA:

Feds have limited resources. They don't support the same skater forever. They shift their support in every Olympic cycle. Jsf has been very consistent doing that.

Takahashi's fans were bitter before Sochi because they felt hanyu got more favoritism than takahashi and hanyu got more generous scores because his flaws were ignored Now some of hanyu's fans are bitter because they think uno got more favoritism from jsf and uno gets more generous scores because his flaws are also ignored. Some of asada's fans are bitter because they think miyahara got more favoritism from jsf and she got more generous scores because her flaws are ignored. But all of takahashi, hanyu and asada have all received favoritism from jsf in the past. Jsf won't favor the same skater forever. Jsf has been very consistent and fair. Even when a skater is favored by the fed, he/she must work hard to deliver to win medals. When the skater loses the favor, he/she must work even harder to improve to win medals.

 

[yude]

So sad for Mura :sad46:

But congratulations to all the medalists!! I think Yuzuru, Shoma, Keiji will be sent to the Worlds.

When it comes to the scoring in the nationals, I always remember when Yuzuru first got over 100 points in SP. It was in nationals and we fans got very excited about it but he said, "It's nationals, it doesn't have any significance (something like that)." and we were like, "oh...yeah...you're right..." I'm curious what Shoma thinks about his scores in this competition.

By the way, am I the only one thinks Sato's axel jump is a bit strange? Honestly I've been wondering about this since when I first saw it but I don't know how to explain. (this is not a nitpicking, pure question)

 

[Lysambre]

Congratulation to the three medalists :agree: . Now you can enjoy some rest, you more than deserve it.


Concerning the "depth of the field", especially for those comparing it to other countries... appart from Russia (who is ready to throw all of their skaters under a bus the second Plushenko says he'll make a come-back), I'd like to know what you've been watching that has made you think there was any "depth" in any other country's field so far? I don't think Japan has much to fear honestly. Nor should they be overconfident either. I think they're just fine. Young quadsters are nice, but maybe they don't want another Sota, or a Nathan, neither of whom we can assure will be able to skate past 20 with the kind of injuries they've already sustained. JSF have plently of talented young skaters, lets nurture them without killing them.

Also, December is always the worst time for skaters, especially for those who participated in the GP series and even worst for those who got into GPF.


I'm very much a Yuzu fan, and I'm the first to admit that for me, a competition he's not part of has very little interest (and when I say little, I actually mean zero, not even ashamed to admit that). I'm also the first to admit that, for me, Shoma is the number one threat for Yuzu getting a Gold medal at the next Olympics. That doesn't mean it's a good reason to be unduly hard toward that young skater. And frankly, that's the only reason I can see as to why so many of you, who are usually the nicest people, are being so harsh suddenly.
Don't be "that fan". Just don't.

Criticize, yes. But be fair. Don't pretend you're concerned about the whole system just because you assume isn't fair to *your* skater. That's called being paranoid. And that's exactly what makes people "that fan".

JSF has been and always will be very kind with Yuzu (especially when he wasn't at his best), that kindness can and should be shared with other skaters in their time of need.
It's Nationals, they overscored some skaters, whatever. It's not even ISU sanctionned. I'm pretty sure North Amercian nationals will once again, and as usual, surpass everything JSF can do, by a factor of at least three billion times worst (as in : I'm actually expecting men with no quads to score over 300 in the US nationals this year).

 

[formersk8ter]

Don't pretend you're concerned about the whole system just because you assume isn't fair to *your* skater. That's called being paranoid. And that's exactly what makes people "that fan".

:thumbsup: This is one of the best statements I've ever read on this forum.

 

[ranran]

:thumbsup: This is one of the best statements I've ever read on this forum.

Seconded :thumbsup:

 

[ranran]

OMG!!! Your avatar

IKR!! Javi and Yuzu in their respective jumpsuit

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I'm also the first to admit that, for me, Shoma is the number one threat for Yuzu getting a Gold medal at the next Olympics.

That's fine if it's your opinion, and why exactly does that mean all of us have to agree? Here's one Yuzu Fan who thinks all of Patrick, Javier, Nathan and Boyang are worse threats - I'd give you reasons, but that would be bashing :sarcasm: I'm so tired already of this simultaneous "Shoma can beat Yuzu" + "Yuzu fans are only frightend of him", because no. First, I'm not frightend of Yuzu losing, he did before and so far he kinda survived it. Second, yes Shoma can beat Yuzu if he makes more mistakes - how many more? Dunno, but hardly just one. Yuzu made more mistakes than Shoma at the GPF, still beat him by 11+ points. If Yuzu does his Job and skates well, Shoma isn't beating him (as is nobody else). So why should I be so pressed?
And if anyone else was so pressed, I'd think they'd get pretty un-pressed after this. Heck, Shoma won with a lower score than Yuzu did back in 2012. And I don't mean to discredit his win, because that is no less deserved because of this - but in regards to these 'Fan wars'? Kinda glorious. Yuzu scored higher in 2012 despite 'only' 3 quads, despite being 1 year younger, despite not even going in as the clear favorite/number 1 as Shoma did here, despite the top PCS back then still going to Dai and most of all despite the rampend scoring inflation we see everywhere since then. Oh my, that is making me so scared. My knees are trembling. Somebody hold me.
In case an attractive young man is reading this, then the last one isn't sarcasm

That doesn't mean it's a good reason to be unduly hard toward that young skater. And frankly, that's the only reason I can see as to why so many of you, who are usually the nicest people, are being so harsh suddenly.
Don't be "that fan". Just don't.

I see one posters that fits this, and then a lot of points that yes, might be harsh critisicm, but critisicm (well and the fun bickering it turns into from both sides. OMG, yes, both). Instead of just whining about haters, how about somebody gets out some actual arguments or people don't jump to being overly defensive either?
(And btw, is Kurt 'that fan' too? He's criticized Shomas jump technique more than once now. Uh Oh.)

And as for the comparison ranran made to some Dai fans back then - you must have bad memory or just seen people being unfair to Shoma in the arena that I didn't. Or did someone here call Shoma a cheap stripper boy or something? Because otherwise, this comparison is thankfully complete BS.

Criticize, yes. But be fair. Don't pretend you're concerned about the whole system just because you assume isn't fair to *your* skater. That's called being paranoid. And that's exactly what makes people "that fan".

that even sounds so rightous and all reading it on its own, but if you halfway know the people you just said that to...

And PS: and JSF has always been kind to Yuzu, so now kindness has to be shared with Shoma? I don't get it?:scratch:

 

[Khoai]

Finding a reliable skater who is willing to deliver 6 quads (SP + FS) consistently isnt an easy task to take on. Chen's quad technique is average at best and the same thing applies to the rest of his skating. I think Chen needs to work on improving his PCS more than anything.
As long as Yuzuru and Shoma are thrown in the mix, there is just no way that USFA will have more power than JSF.

Mr. Chen needs to work on PCS but he can work on his less than Mr. Jin from Chinese fed. Mr. Chen's quads are average but still better than Mr. Uno's quads which are kind of cheating. If Mr. Uno goes against Mr. Chen, then he will be punished. And it is actually easy to punish him. Mr. Uno has cheated take-off while Mr. Chen does not.

In the short program, Mr. Uno is overscored compared to Mr. Chen. Mr. Uno has double the amount of crossovers compared to Mr. Chen in SP, less one foot skating than Mr. Chen. If they go against each other again, Mr. Chen might have the advantage.

People don't understand how powerful USFA is. There has been a talk about USFA want a limit on the quad because their men can not jump quad. Now they have Mr. Chen, if he can stay healthy, then he will be the chosen one.

 

[Lysambre]

That's fine if it's your opinion

If you had read that one sentence you quoted, you would have seen that I said "for me", which means that it is indeed my opinion. I've always assumed that most people write what is indeed their opinion, and not the opinion of someone else.

I'm so tired already of this simultaneous "Shoma can beat Yuzu" + "Yuzu fans are only frightend of him", because no. First, I'm not frightend of Yuzu losing, he did before and so far he kinda survived it. Second, yes Shoma can beat Yuzu if he makes more mistakes - how many more? Dunno, but hardly just one. Yuzu made more mistakes than Shoma at the GPF, still beat him by 11+ points. If Yuzu does his Job and skates well, Shoma isn't beating him (as is nobody else). So why should I be so pressed?
And if anyone else was so pressed, I'd think they'd get pretty un-pressed after this. Heck, Shoma won with a lower score than Yuzu did back in 2012. And I don't mean to discredit his win, because that is no less deserved because of this - but in regards to these 'Fan wars'? Kinda glorious. Yuzu scored higher in 2012 despite 'only' 3 quads, despite being 1 year younger, despite not even going in as the clear favorite/number 1 as Shoma did here, despite the top PCS back then still going to Dai and most of all despite the rampend scoring inflation we see everywhere since then. Oh my, that is making me so scared. My knees are trembling. Somebody hold me.

For someone who isn't scared, you're sure defensive.
I fully trust Yuzu to do his absolute best for the Olympics, and if he doesn then yes, he's absolutely unbeatable by anyone. That said, I'm not going to ignore the competition and pretend they don't matter. I would feel foolish doing that.
But hey, if you need to reassure yourself that way, fine with me.

I see one posters that fits this, and then a lot of points that yes, might be harsh critisicm, but critisicm (well and the fun bickering it turns into from both sides. OMG, yes, both). Instead of just whining about haters, how about somebody gets out some actual arguments or people don't jump to being overly defensive either?
(And btw, is Kurt 'that fan' too? He's criticized Shomas jump technique more than once now. Uh Oh.)

And as for the comparison ranran made to some Dai fans back then - you must have bad memory or just seen people being unfair to Shoma in the arena that I didn't. Or did someone here call Shoma a cheap stripper boy or something? Because otherwise, this comparison is thankfully complete BS.

Once again, I did say that criticism was fine. Some of what I saw wasn't simply criticism though. Once again, it would appear that our definition of "fair criticism" differ.
As far as I know (and I won't ever even pretend to know everything), Kurt might have criticized Shoma's jumping technique (who hasn't?), but he hasn't called for him to quit his training team completely, nor has he said that made Shoma undeserving of his results. There is a difference. That's what I call fair criticism. Calling out his jump technique : fair. Anything else : unfair. that is my very own personal point of view, obviously. You are free to disagree.

that even sounds so rightous and all reading it on its own, but if you halfway know the people you just said that to...

I'm not fully sure what you mean by that actually. Do I feel that what I said is "morally right"? (sorry, I had to google what the word righteous actually meant, because I wasn't sure). If that's what you mean, then yes, I do. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it? I'm actually still not sure what you were getting at with that quote and your answer to it, so, sorry I can't really argue about that point.

And PS: and JSF has always been kind to Yuzu, so now kindness has to be shared with Shoma? I don't get it?:scratch:

No, I mean that JSF has overscored Yuzu before when he had failures. Once Yuzu retires, chances are Shoma will be their next top skaters, so they are just extending that courtesy to him too now: overscoring him when he has failures.
I would actually say that it is progress for JSF to do that, because it shows that they might have finally understood that they can push more than one skater at a time. It will help both skaters AND it will also lower the pressure on both. For me, it's a win-win situation.


I posted what I did, mostly because I also get tired when I see things like "Oh, those Yuzu fans...." immediately followed by something terrible. Well, yes, some Yuzu fans are that way, they are "that fan" that nobody is happy about (and I don't read what they say, because I block them on this forum. Never considered you to be one by the way). There are actually very few of them, but they are very loud. And so I wanted to talk too. Because I'm one of those "Yuzu ubers" or something, and it needs to be heard that we don't all sound the same. We are different people, with different point of views. And the loudest and most negative ones are not always representative of the majority (and no, that does not mean I think I represent the majority... not by far. I represent myself, and that's enough for me).
That is all.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

If you had read that one sentence you quoted, you would have seen that I said "for me", which means that it is indeed my opinion. I've always assumed that most people write what is indeed their opinion, and not the opinion of someone else

I did read that sentence of yours. And if you wouldn't have cut mine in half, you might have realized what I actually meant. Yes, it was clear you stated your opinion. The point is you then went on with arguments that only make sense when "all those Yuzu fans" also perceive Shoma (and apparently only him?) the same way you do. But not everybody might - which was my point.

For someone who isn't scared, you're sure defensive.

Defensive of what?
If I wouldn't basically have to defend myself right now from being a hater, I wouldn't have made any Yuzu-Shoma comparison at all. And again, I didn't make that comparison to discredit Shoma or his win, but your argument. So yeah, I'm being defensive in this 'Fan war' argument, not about Yuzus scoring in relation to Shomas.

I fully trust Yuzu to do his absolute best for the Olympics, and if he doesn then yes, he's absolutely unbeatable by anyone. That said, I'm not going to ignore the competition and pretend they don't matter. I would feel foolish doing that.
But hey, if you need to reassure yourself that way, fine with me.

Neither do I? And I just listed more people who can be dangerous to Yuzu than you did? I don't get it?:scratch:

I'm not fully sure what you mean by that actually. Do I feel that what I said is "morally right"? (sorry, I had to google what the word righteous actually meant, because I wasn't sure). If that's what you mean, then yes, I do. Otherwise I wouldn't have said it? I'm actually still not sure what you were getting at with that quote and your answer to it, so, sorry I can't really argue about that point.

I meant that you threw that big, generally probably often right statement in big part at the wrong people.

I posted what I did, mostly because I also get tired when I see things like "Oh, those Yuzu fans...." immediately followed by something terrible. Well, yes, some Yuzu fans are that way, they are "that fan" that nobody is happy about (and I don't read what they say, because I block them on this forum. Never considered you to be one by the way). There are actually very few of them, but they are very loud. And so I wanted to talk too. Because I'm one of those "Yuzu ubers" or something, and it needs to be heard that we don't all sound the same. We are different people, with different point of views. And the loudest and most negative ones are not always representative of the majority (and no, that does not mean I think I represent the majority... not by far. I represent myself, and that's enough for me).
That is all.

And with that I agree. But I still think your blanket statement post by far and large hit the wrong people.
Oh, and additionally: the whining that it's only Yuzu fans being scared after every form of critisicm against Shoma has been there from Shomas first competition this season. A competition Yuzu wasn't in. And a competition were the majority of the people critisicing Shoma really weren't even Yuzu fans. This goes both ways, and no matter how nice the absolute majority of Yuzu fans might be, the "Yuzu fans" statements will be there.

 

[Khoai]

People need to chill out. They should understand that JSF is not stupid to rely on cheated quads and excessive crossovers. They should understand they are no match to Russian Fed and USFA if their skaters have questionable technique. Inflation at GP series are just for commercial reasons. The real deal rankings will be at World Championships.

 

[Lysambre]

I did read that sentence of yours. And if you wouldn't have cut mine in half, you might have realized what I actually meant.

I did exactly what you did when answering my previous message? Only quoting parts of it and not responding to the whole? To prove to you that only answering a few chosen quotes and not the whole thing actually changes the meaning ot things. (I'm actually joking, please don't take this badly, I just wanted to needle you a tiny bit )

Oh, and additionally: the whining that it's only Yuzu fans being scared after every form of critisicm against Shoma has been there from Shomas first competition this season. A competition Yuzu wasn't in.

I've seen these things yes.

I've seen scared people pretty much everywhere on this website. As soon as their favourite gets a potential rival, it's all anger and spite and accusations and whatever else. None of it sounds like fear, it sounds like anger, or sometimes it even sounds like mansplaining, but it is all issued from the same fear : is my favourite going to stay on top/going to medal.
So yeah, it's not only Yuzu's fans. It's everyone who has a favourite.
And I admit that for a short while last year, I was one of the scared people (not on this forum, but in private, with friends), and it made me angry for no reason, so I understand where it comes from (not a pretty place). So you're right, I shouldn't make blanket statements. I still need to learn how to express myself in a better way and I accept that.

The whining, well, I guess that the default way of expression on this forum? along with absolute anger? I dunno, I'm usually a calm person, but even I had a few times where I was borderline polite after reading a thousand annoying messages (and I don't mean this thread at all by the way, I'm going off topic so bad right now ).

 

[Lys]

Concerning the "depth of the field", especially for those comparing it to other countries... appart from Russia (who is ready to throw all of their skaters under a bus the second Plushenko says he'll make a come-back), I'd like to know what you've been watching that has made you think there was any "depth" in any other country's field so far? I don't think Japan has much to fear honestly. Nor should they be overconfident either. I think they're just fine. Young quadsters are nice, but maybe they don't want another Sota, or a Nathan, neither of whom we can assure will be able to skate past 20 with the kind of injuries they've already sustained. JSF have plently of talented young skaters, lets nurture them without killing them.

I was speaking about the future for JPN men.
Yuzu + Shoma as top-2 skaters is something no other Federation can parade. Mura + Keiji (+ Dice, may he recover for his injury) are good skaters as well. But behind them? In Juniors?

A lot of things can change, I may just be over negative, but taking Sota out of the equation (and I really hope he can recover fully and come back stonger than ever), at the moment Russia, USA, Canada have all deeper fields and better skaters (technical wise) than Japan. Korea field is not deep, but Cha is the most promising one out of them all.
So, yup, I still consider myself in "worried" camp.


P.S: For the rest, if what I wrote makes me a Shoma-hater, I have nothing else to say on the matter

 

[Khoai]

I was speaking about the future for JPN men.
Yuzu + Shoma as top-2 skaters is something no other Federation can parade. Mura + Keiji (+ Dice, may he recover for his injury) are good skaters as well. But behind them? In Juniors?

A lot of things can change, I may just be over negative, but taking Sota out of the equation (and I really hope he can recover fully and come back stonger than ever), at the moment Russia, USA, Canada have all deeper fields and better skaters (technical wise) than Japan. Korea field is not deep, but Cha is the most promising one out of them all.
So, yup, I still consider myself in "worried" camp.

Mr. Yamamoto should come back with good health. Or Japanese men after 2018 seem like they will have Not very bright future.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I did exactly what you did when answering my previous message? Only quoting parts of it and not responding to the whole? To prove to you that only answering a few chosen quotes and not the whole thing actually changes the meaning ot things. (I'm actually joking, please don't take this badly, I just wanted to needle you a tiny bit )

You can not needle me, I can sew

I've seen these things yes.

I've seen scared people pretty much everywhere on this website. As soon as their favourite gets a potential rival, it's all anger and spite and accusations and whatever else. None of it sounds like fear, it sounds like anger, or sometimes it even sounds like mansplaining, but it is all issued from the same fear : is my favourite going to stay on top/going to medal.
So yeah, it's not only Yuzu's fans. It's everyone who has a favourite.
And I admit that for a short while last year, I was one of the scared people (not on this forum, but in private, with friends), and it made me angry for no reason, so I understand where it comes from (not a pretty place). So you're right, I shouldn't make blanket statements. I still need to learn how to express myself in a better way and I accept that.

The whining, well, I guess that the default way of expression on this forum? along with absolute anger? I dunno, I'm usually a calm person, but even I had a few times where I was borderline polite after reading a thousand annoying messages (and I don't mean this thread at all by the way, I'm going off topic so bad right now ).

Yes, it's coming from all fan camps. Yuzu fans included. I'm just getting defensive when I feel people are generalizing the whole fandom in a bad way, especially when it came after a number of what are also valid arguments. Maybe I'm also being too defensive, I just need to ignore that poster I have so much of a problem with (like I'm ignoring some Yuzu fans too). To wrap this up, as I said I agree with this here, so

P.S: For the rest, if what I wrote makes me a Shoma-hater, I have nothing else to say on the matter

Phhh, you're a whole Japan hater, and you didn't even tell me. Traitor!


And please be positive about Sota. He will come back, and he will be healthy, and he will be great. I refuse to believe everything else :sad21:

 

[Biellmann]

Mr. Yamamoto should come back with good health. Or Japanese men after 2018 seem like they will have Not very bright future.

When Yuzuru retires, Japan has a problem. They have many talented girls, but not boys :confused2: Right now, even the Russian men's field looks better for the next few years
I hope Sota recovers well, i like his skating

 

[MaiKatze]

haha, Shoma so nice. No teary face at the next Worlds, but a smiley face. Hopefully, yes! It'll be tough, but may the best man win.

 

[Khoai]

When Yuzuru retires, Japan has a problem. They have many talented girls, but not boys :confused2: Right now, even the Russian men's field looks better for the next few years
I hope Sota recovers well, i like his skating

Yes, Mr. Yamamoto has iffy 3A and weaker edge jumps but his toe jumps are ok. His skating skills are good. He skates bigger than his rivals at the same age. But he has been unlucky for 2 seasons. Maybe he will be ok by 2019.

 

[Sydney Rose]

I finally had a chance to watch Shoma's FS. Reminded me of Gracie Gold's nervous skates although, to be fair to Gracie, she's never finished one of her skates sobbing her heart out (on or off the ice). I'm guessing the pressure of being the favorite got to him.

Odd that it took so long for the PDFs to finally be posted. Some pretty blatant URs that weren't called (when I can see them in real time, that means they're really bad). Will be interesting to see if he gets away with that outside of Japan.