2018 US Int'l Classic Free Dance

[NoNameFace]

H/D could have benefited from an outside choreographer here and I think at their level, the more input they receive the better. When V/M announced that they were skating to Carmen, people were not over-enthusiastic about their choice. However, they consulted Tessa's dance teacher, Jennifer Swan, to make that dance unique, innovative, and authentic, widely regarded now as a masterpiece. They have hit a rut and need some inspiration. I think even spending a few weeks with Camerlango, their former coach, could have brought this more to life.

I am honestly the most surprised about them admitting to not have other idea besides taking on music that they're always loved/liked - I think that a positive, enthusiastic response on their last season's FD should have given them a sense of direction and inspiration for research (they looked comfortable and quite 'in their element' in that bluesy FD, so I do not think it could be a massive stretch for them to make something in that vein, at least chemistry-wise).
Thinking about this whole situation, I wonder why not Lana Del Rey for example (maybe mix of 'Blue Jeans' and 'West Coast'), or Elbow ('Bones of you') or DeVotchka ('Undone' would be good), 'The end of you and I' by Isaac Gracie? There is plenty of stuff in contemporary/lyrical vein with edge and variety to try on and try to customize.

 

[litenkyckling]

And a bit general thought after seeing this FD... If this is the direction Ice Dance is going when it comes to the top, I am just sad to see this kind of uninspired safety and lack of personal identity regarding repetoire. I know it is hard to break the mold, but even Hubbell/Donohue's last FD proved that originality can be effortless and can come out naturally in the field. And there are examples of Virtue/Moir who took a piece and idea out of their individual choice against all odds (quite literally) and made something memorable, personal, close to them out of it, Shibutanis example who turned their career and repetoire 180 degrees by having this trilogy idea which expressed them personally and help them improve connection with audience and between themselves and their material, Lauriault/Le Gac example, directly from Montreal, who despite not being everyone's cup of team regarding programs are pursuing something original second season in a row, making a statement. I mean, it is all possible, but it all depends on a team's agenda competition-wise I feel, sacrifice originality and challenge for results' sake.

For me, the best teams for creativity are (for the most part) those who aren't at the top of the field in their country. For example, G/P have always had to push more to be seen, and I think it forces them to take more risks with regards to choreography. If H/D keep winning, I can only imagine their programmes will get even more dull?

 

[NoNameFace]

For me, the best teams for creativity are (for the most part) those who aren't at the top of the field in their country. For example, G/P have always had to push more to be seen, and I think it forces them to take more risks with regards to choreography. If H/D keep winning, I can only imagine their programmes will get even more dull?

There is something to be said about that indeed - I feel that originality and variety in repetoire became a staple for Gilles/Poirier, the problem was always their inconsistency in terms of execution and sometimes 'late' development/a long growth of their programs, also being sometimes too much 'off' the mold side for judges. With Hubbell/Donohue the situation I feel is a bit different - while Canadians have a bit of underdogs quality competition-wise and naturally switch aesthetics in their programs taking an effort to make them work for them, Americans were always a bit of non-descript team who improved technically, but despite being on a verge of medalling and having Worlds silver did not progress in terms of pushing the envelop repetoire-wise. Yes, their last season's FD was a great match, something that really gave them some kind of striking image to their names aside of just skills and I hoped for this to be a start of building something unique to them, personalized. What is funny taking G/P vs H/D situations is that former despite lack of that universal praise and high value put on their programs are still pushing originality in their agenda while later seems to be content with established position in ranks and not risk anything in terms of material

 

[TontoK]

There is something to be said about that indeed - I feel that originality and variety in repetoire became a staple for Gilles/Poirier, the problem was always their inconsistency in terms of execution and sometimes 'late' development/a long growth of their programs, also being sometimes too much 'off' the mold side for judges. With Hubbell/Donohue the situation I feel is a bit different - while Canadians have a bit of underdogs quality competition-wise and naturally switch aesthetics in their programs taking an effort to make them work for them, Americans were always a bit of non-descript team who improved technically, but despite being on a verge of medalling and having Worlds silver did not progress in terms of pushing the envelop repetoire-wise. Yes, their last season's FD was a great match, something that really gave them some kind of striking image to their names aside of just skills and I hoped for this to be a start of building something unique to them, personalized. What is funny taking G/P vs H/D situations is that former despite lack of that universal praise and high value put on their programs are still pushing originality in their agenda while later seems to be content with established position in ranks and not risk anything in terms of material

As much as I am perplexed by H/D's free dance, I think you're being a bit harsh in terms of expanding the emotional scope of their skating.

Last season, the gripe about them was that they're too "one note" with sexual tension in their skating. Whatever you say about this FD, it is certainly not that.

I, for one, liked the very physical romantic vibe of their programs. It made them stand out, and nobody else could deliver that type of program.

I'll take a little bump and grind over passionless flowing programs without a point.

I'm going to give this time to develop, and see if I don't enjoy it more later on down the line. But as some of you know, I don't blindly adore any skater if their programs or progress don't merit my continued interest. I'm not that kind of skating fan.

 

[pearly]

It's tough. You can't stay in your comfort zone forever (their 2017 and 2018 programs suit them so well, but were very similar). However this RJ doesn't look like a good direction to go at this point.

 

[ancientpeas]

I haven't seen H/D's Romeo and Juliet yet as I was watching the jrs with Ted but I can say this: When I think of Romeo and Juliet I do not think of H/D. I'd say they could do more justice to something like Carmen than to Romeo and Juliet.

I feel they need, especially next season, to go really away from type. Nothing romantic, nothing sensual. Something really kind of rocking and harder edge to prove they are versatile. Right now they are the closest to P/C. You aren't going to beat P/C trying to outdo them at what they do best so you need to go to the other end of spectrum and say "Look at us! Look at how we are challenging ourselves and are different." The reason I say next season is because I feel like they have to back up their medal at worlds with a solid season so maybe that is why you go conservative with Romeo and Juliet. It's not going to offend anyone.

 

[NoNameFace]

As much as I am perplexed by H/D's free dance, I think you're being a bit harsh in terms of expanding the emotional scope of their skating.

Last season, the gripe about them was that they're too "one note" with sexual tension in their skating. Whatever you say about this FD, it is certainly not that.

I, for one, liked the very physical romantic vibe of their programs. It made them stand out, and nobody else could deliver that type of program.

I'll take a little bump and grind over passionless flowing programs without a point.

I'm going to give this time to develop, and see if I don't enjoy it more later on down the line. But as some of you know, I don't blindly adore any skater if their programs or progress don't merit my continued interest. I'm not that kind of skating fan.

Let me precise - I had nothing against their physical and dense chemistry last season, found it actually refreshing, vibrant and colourful in a sea of classic/contemporary lyrical pieces served, I encouraged that choice due to this realness factor and believable image/story, supported by choreography and musical arrangement (both strong and maching themselves, at least before tweaking around rotational lift part...). What I feel looking at the current choice and how program stands for now is a regress to this romance-y, soft aesthetic they already proved they can pull off (Tron plus a medley of songs in 2016/17 season) and feel comfortable with. So there is an emotional scope there, just not with variety/direction I expected or I would expect following their work last season.
As I wrote earlier, the design, music, movement and feeling they are trying to evoke for now are not in synch with each other in my opinion, it is a mix of telling R&J story (with literal referencje to death) with showing their connection, throwing some confusing voiceovers and unnatural movement (with no flow, the very beginning), trying to add egde at the same time (Radiohead), but not resigning from romance on a full stop (Kissing You as the main part of the dance). In terms of movement also a bit of dissonance: trying to emulate softness and lyricism through those lifts and sliding movements, yet later looking a bit too mechanical and heavy in motion, going for flow, fluid lines and edges while inserting Radiohead over voiceover piece...

It is just too many questions right now seeing how this choice of music and theme is reflected in actual program, if they are feeling devoted to this, then it's good, but I still feel that they passed an opportunity to challenge themselves, continuing on expanding their emotional palate in material and instead fell into emotional aesthetic they know very well.

 

[ancientpeas]

It's tough. You can't stay in your comfort zone forever (their 2017 and 2018 programs suit them so well, but were very similar). However this RJ doesn't look like a good direction to go at this point.

You just gave me wicked Billy Joel "You may be right" vibes right there because I read it as combat zone rather than comfort zone.

 

[oly2018]

I think a previous poster's point rings true. I don't think they themselves are inherently creative. I don't mean for that to sound harsh, but they had no other ideas for music. R&J was it and there is really no new way to interpret it. Now, I will say, it is their coach's responsibility to help them find their creative voice and this is not that. I am more eager to see C/B and H/B to see how all of those teams will stack up now that they are coming from the same coaching staff.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think a previous poster's point rings true. I don't think they themselves are inherently creative. I don't mean for that to sound harsh, but they had no other ideas for music. R&J was it and there is really no new way to interpret it. Now, I will say, it is their coach's responsibility to help them find their creative voice and this is not that. I am more eager to see C/B and H/B to see how all of those teams will stack up now that they are coming from the same coaching staff.

But they have in the past. Just look at their 2016-2017 SD with their "History of blues/hip-hop" mix. The idea was completely nuts, seemed to have too many cuts and it took a while for people to buy into it, but it was clear that THEY believed in the vision and ultimately it did pay off when they pulled off 3rd place in the SD at Worlds that year. They still managed to play off their natural chemistry. Hindsight of course, but even its early days you sense they had a certain belief and vision to the piece.

I don't sense that at all here. As NNF pointed out, there seems to be a lot of in-decision in terms of what they want the music to be.

I think for me, I'd like some evolution in how they use their chemistry. Nobody is saying to drop one's strength, but there is an opportunity to add depths and layers to it. The Blues/hip-hop SD from 2016-2017 and last seasons programs showed some signs of depth depth -- the SD, for me had a bit of sensual coolness and the FD kind of showed a bit of edge to it.

Going back to Manta and Johnson here. There's no doubt they don't have anywhere the technical skills Hubbell and Donohue do (or the medalists for that matter) and they really struggled with some of the elements, but they really stay true their vision for the dance, which is admirable.

 

[SnowWhite]

Lajoie/Lagah have a beautiful choreo slide, it goes so well with the music.

I agree with you guys regarding H/D. Gah. I loved them last year.

Agreed.

I haven't seen H/D's Romeo and Juliet yet as I was watching the jrs with Ted but I can say this: When I think of Romeo and Juliet I do not think of H/D. I'd say they could do more justice to something like Carmen than to Romeo and Juliet.

I feel they need, especially next season, to go really away from type. Nothing romantic, nothing sensual. Something really kind of rocking and harder edge to prove they are versatile. Right now they are the closest to P/C. You aren't going to beat P/C trying to outdo them at what they do best so you need to go to the other end of spectrum and say "Look at us! Look at how we are challenging ourselves and are different." The reason I say next season is because I feel like they have to back up their medal at worlds with a solid season so maybe that is why you go conservative with Romeo and Juliet. It's not going to offend anyone.

I felt the same way before I saw the program. After watching it, I would say they work as those characters / in that emotion much better than I expected. It's not the direction I would have had them go at all, but I don't think it's a bad Romeo and Juliet program. It's just that people expect more from them than R&J.

 

[Mrs. P]

I felt the same way before I saw the program. After watching it, I would say they work as those characters / in that emotion much better than I expected. It's not the direction I would have had them go at all, but I don't think it's a bad Romeo and Juliet program. It's just that people expect more from them than R&J.

I'm willing to give a chance to see if they work on it. Maybe they'll have a more settled vision by the GP.

 

[NoNameFace]

But they have in the past. Just look at their 2016-2017 SD with their "History of blues/hip-hop" mix. The idea was completely nuts, seemed to have too many cuts and it took a while for people to buy into it, but it was clear that THEY believed in the vision and ultimately it did pay off when they pulled off 3rd place in the SD at Worlds that year. They still managed to play off their natural chemistry. Hindsight of course, but even its early days you sense they had a certain belief and vision to the piece.

I don't sense that at all here. As NNF pointed out, there seems to be a lot of in-decision in terms of what they want the music to be.

I think for me, I'd like some evolution in how they use their chemistry. Nobody is saying to drop one's strength, but there is an opportunity to add depths and layers to it. The Blues/hip-hop SD from 2016-2017 and last seasons programs showed some signs of depth depth -- the SD, for me had a bit of sensual coolness and the FD kind of showed a bit of edge to it.

Yes, I think that in the end of the day it is a matter of how they will steer that program now having it already revealed and having some food for thought after competition - while I sense a disonance, they could feel harmony in what they are doing with that piece, it is often a matter of convincing others to see it with their mindset. I still think that the choice is lacklustre and does little to expand their capabilities and these depths of expression that they showed us glimpses of past two seasons. Thinking more about it today (lol looking at the fact that I wrote a lot already on that), I totally see them doing a program to 'Selfish Love' by Jessie Ware or at least using it in a program.

 

[apgold]

To add to the chorus, I hope H/D scrap it or rework it, like V/M did with Moulin Rouge, which became pretty much a masterpiece, despite the overused soundtrack (what is it with skaters and Baz Luhrmann movies?).

Madi and Zach looked great physically and their movements were spot on, but I think at this point the program needs work. I wonder what feedback they got at Champs Camp? Maybe keep "Kissing You" as an EX if they love it so much, but I want to see them grow and give P/C a run for the World Title.