Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim | Page 16 | Golden Skate

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

I think a prime Sasha over the last quad would have found similar success to Flatt, Nagasu, and Meissner, during their better years most likely.

I normally wouldn't comment this cause it is provocative and far from reality but Nagasu is doing great and she is still too young, and she is the one I really look forward to seeing her career after Cohen, I hardly remember Meissner while I can recall 5 programs of Sasha in 10 secs and I dont think Sasha would have just Flatt success, although Flat has also some successful comments. And I m just an average fan of Cohen. I ve seen her in a show and it is amazing she is so tiny and becomes gigantic on ice.
 
I'm hard-pressed to find anyone in this quad who can beat the aging and damaged Kwan at Nationals 2003 and 2004.
Maybe Ando at the 2007 World or Kim at the Olympics or Asada at the 2010 World, but that's all. And how rare it was for them to put together a clean SP and clean LP.

Kwan by then was doing 6 triples, no combinations, simpler spins and non jump elements, and stripped down choreography. She was still great of course but very beatable by that point . Cohen herself would have beaten her both those years but she fell as usual. There is a reason her nickname was SashaSplat.
 
Sasha would do fine if she were in her prime and competing now. Especially this year, where the judges are giving out PCSs like Hallowe'een candy and don't care much about falls and the like -- or for that matter, about technical content.

Actually the results this season indicate for the women all the judges care about are jumps which would be all the worse for weak jumpers like Sasha. Are you forgetting Miki Ando has dominated this season so far with level 1 or 2 spins often, her sad excuse of spirals, a complete loss of speed from her younger years, and her while arguably improved still overall mediocre (at best) artistry. All because of the very strong jumps she is doing. The one exception to this is Czisny's win at the GP final but which happened only due to Ando bombing the short program.
 
The one exception to this is Czisny's win at the GP final but which happened only due to Ando bombing the short program.

Yes, it was Czisny that I was mostly thinking about. Along with Caroline Kostrner beating everyone with a couple of Salchows and a couple of loops. Laura Lepisto's success last year, too.

Plus, Ando is not so bad in "second mark" skills. She usually gets in the sevens across the board.
 
Kwan by then was doing 6 triples, no combinations, simpler spins and non jump elements, and stripped down choreography. She was still great of course but very beatable by that point . Cohen herself would have beaten her both those years but she fell as usual. There is a reason her nickname was SashaSplat.

But at the time, the system didn't call for harder spins, combinations, etc... I'm sure she can tag a few 2T or 2R. Compare Kwan and Arakawa at the 2004 Worlds, Kwan doubled the second lutz, footwork sequence was not as great as it was at Nationals, and they gave her a bunch of 6.0s, and 4 judges put her 1st over Arakawa's complex spins, big 3x3x2 and 3x3 combos.
If Michelle did what she did at National at World, no judges would even put Arakawa 1st. So I don't fault Sasha for losing to Michelle in those years.
 
Kwan by then was doing 6 triples... .

Well, that's how many Kim did at the Olympics (granted she fa triple-triple and fleshed it out with three double Axels, which was legal then.) Mao attempted 6, did 4 (but two of them were triple Axels). Arakawa did five at the 2010 Olympics.

How many skaters do you expect to do seven triples at 2011 Worlds?
 
But at the time, the system didn't call for harder spins, combinations, etc... I'm sure she can tag a few 2T or 2R. Compare Kwan and Arakawa at the 2004 Worlds, Kwan doubled the second lutz, footwork sequence was not as great as it was at Nationals, and they gave her a bunch of 6.0s, and 4 judges put her 1st over Arakawa's complex spins, big 3x3x2 and 3x3 combos.
If Michelle did what she did at National at World, no judges would even put Arakawa 1st. So I don't fault Sasha for losing to Michelle in those years.

Two things.

1. Just because some of the judges put Kwan with her Worlds performance above Shizuka's long program does not mean no judges would have put Arakawa first if Kwan had an even better performance like her U.S Nationals one. Keep in mind in the short program even without the time deduction Kwan who was otherwise brilliant probably would have been only 3rd behind Shizuka who cheated the back end end of her triple lutz-triple toe and had two other minor errors.

2. Lets also be honest on one thing. Shizuka was not at all being judged on the same scale as the big names like Cohen, Slutskaya, or Kwan. I gaurantee you 110% if Slutskaya, Kwan, or Cohen had done the exact same long program Shizuka did at the 2004 Worlds they would have had all 6.0s for technical merit and mostly 6.0s for presentation, and had straight 1st place votes from every judge. Shizuka at the time was still a relative "no name". She came into Worlds as the distant #3 Japanese, and for clean shorts with a triple lutz-double earlier that season was finishing 8-12 points back of Cohen, heck she still was often losing head to head meetings with Jenny Kirk up to that point.

Also keep in mind Sasha Cohen with a quite mediocre long program performance which was far worse than Kwan's performance really, which had 3 or 4 shaky landings, aborted cominations, a botched triple salchow late, and very slow and tenative, even took 3 of 9 counting judges of Shizuka (3 of the same 4 who also had Kwan above Shizuka). And btw also look at how much more decisively the now "former World Champion" Shizuka beat Cohen at the 2006 Olympics for a far weaker performance than her 2004 Worlds one, while Cohen even with her 1.5 falls probably turned in an overall better performance than her 2004 Worlds one.

In essense journeywomen Shizuka's long program at the 2004 Worlds is not reflective of how well a big name like Cohen or Slutskaya would have to skate to beat Kwan at that point, even with a slightly better performance. It is only reflective of how well the then #3 Japanese who came into Worlds with far less stature than say Fumie Suguri would have to skate to do so. Cohen would have won Nationals in 2003, 2004, and 2005 if she had simply kept her artistic touche off the ice. Kwan was still great but she was not the Kwan of 96-2001 anymore, and the USFSA were also more than ready to anoint Cohen as their new #1 that whole time, the hype on her to win Nationals and Worlds every year after 2002 makes that apparent. And even if you think I am wrong she would have still been less criticized if she had atleast kept her dress off the ice one of those times.
 
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Plus, Ando is not so bad in "second mark" skills. She usually gets in the sevens across the board.

Do you really think Miki Ando gets sevens across the board for her components at times due to her very good component capabilities and overall presentation. Or does she get them because she is a very strong jumper who is a former World Champion. I choose to believe the latter.
 
Well, that's how many Kim did at the Olympics (granted she fa triple-triple and fleshed it out with three double Axels, which was legal then.) Mao attempted 6, did 4 (but two of them were triple Axels). Arakawa did five at the 2010 Olympics.

How many skaters do you expect to do seven triples at 2011 Worlds?

It is different doing 6 triples when you arent doing any of the harder combinations. Kwan at her peak was doing a triple toe-triple toe, 7 triples, and could do almost any triple-double combination. Due to her unfortunate hip injury she had to scale back on everything, jumps and otherwise.

Kim can do 6 triples since she can do every triple-triple or double-triple combination there is and still easily has more jump base value than most doing 7 triples. Anyway COP is different, and ommiting a triple isnt that big a deal anymore if you can collect the points other ways. And obviously Mao is doing multiple triple axels most times, she just has to muter an adequate enough jump layout otherwise.
 
So I know this isn't directly related to this thread, but my absolute favorite triple-triple combination of Michelle's is the one she did during warm-up at the 2000 worlds. Every time I watch that video, I repeat that combination at least 10 times before moving onto the actual program! She gets such lovely flow-out and height on that second toe! This program also contains my favorite triple lutz by her (the second one in the program).

Haha, I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who goes gaga over this combination (happens around the 12 second mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg

Actually, there is a relation to this thread after all. One of my favorite triple-triples of Yuna's is actually the one she did during 2007 worlds warm-up. It happens around the 1:10 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FmncaNGLOI

The commonality in these two combinations is that they land the first jump leaning slightly backwards (more upright) and they get such great height on the second jump (more than usual, during competitions).

They're both fantastic - but from different eras. Love them both!

:biggrin:
 
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But at the time, the system didn't call for harder spins, combinations, etc... I'm sure she can tag a few 2T or 2R. Compare Kwan and Arakawa at the 2004 Worlds, Kwan doubled the second lutz, footwork sequence was not as great as it was at Nationals, and they gave her a bunch of 6.0s, and 4 judges put her 1st over Arakawa's complex spins, big 3x3x2 and 3x3 combos.
If Michelle did what she did at National at World, no judges would even put Arakawa 1st. So I don't fault Sasha for losing to Michelle in those years.

If I remember correctly, Michelle had done a 3Lz-2T-2Lo at 2005 Worlds. Even at twenty-six, she could pull out something new-ish. And back in 2000/2001ish, she had attempted a 3Lz-3Lo, but failed (sadly). I guess that's where the 3Lz-2Lo came from in the 2001-2 season.

Though, there was that nagging hip injury of hers ...
 
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Well, that's how many Kim did at the Olympics (granted she fa triple-triple and fleshed it out with three double Axels, which was legal then.) Mao attempted 6, did 4 (but two of them were triple Axels). Arakawa did five at the 2010 Olympics.

How many skaters do you expect to do seven triples at 2011 Worlds?
12-year old YuNa could do it... if skating is ... all jumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRGAlnseVK8

With that ratio... 20-year old YuNa will be able to... 12 : 7 = 20 : x ... so x = 11.66...
YuNa can execute at least... 11 TRIPPLEs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Lets also be honest on one thing. Shizuka was not at all being judged on the same scale as the big names like Cohen, Slutskaya, or Kwan.

There you go, Michelle will get huge PCS, even more than Joannie Rochette at the Olympics, and win everytime against a clean no name Kim.
Kim with the world title and Olympic title, maybe not. :biggrin:
 
Pang and Tong doing 7 triples? Are you counting three for each one of them and one extra for Tong? Why didn't I think of that?

LOL

Poptart/Toaster not Pang and Tong. Have you not been following this thread. ;)
 
With that ratio... 20-year old YuNa will be able to... 12 : 7 = 20 : x ... so x = 11.66...
YuNa can execute at least... 11 TRIPPLEs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And just think what she can do when she's 60! :cool:
 
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