- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
You are right IMO, as well as the +3 category in acknowledgeable addition.
Has the CoP killed the 3T/3T and 3Lo/3Lo combos?
- Thread starter Mathman
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You are right IMO, as well as the +3 category in acknowledgeable addition.
It is a wow element only if it is executed superbly. It is not going to get a +3 just because it is a 3Lo+3Lo. Nor does it count to enhance PE -- read the criteria. It's hard to say how much one element that fits CH or IN really well will affect those too marks, but I would say not much. Go read those criteria also.
3Lo+3Lo is a difficult element that does not get it's due in base value, but most judges are not going to make up for that in the PCs if they mark according to the criteria.
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- Mar 19, 2006
:agree: True, how silly of me, no need to even read over that again.
It still has to be executed superbly to gain +3 no matter the jump.:agree: What about SS marks? And CH make sense for a higher mark as well.
Maybe they don't want to encourage skaters to do it due to the potential injury factor - so they don't encourage it via higher point value???
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I don't think encouragement or not has anything to do with it. They (the originiators of IJS) just were not very sophisticated in deciding what a combo or seq should be work compared to a solo jump. I know that a lot of coaches feel that combos and seqs are not rewarded correctly.
Of course, just to stirr discussion, 3Lo+3Lo is worth 10 points which is more than a triple Axel, or quad toe loop, and most of the skaters who have landed the combo could not land the Axel or the quad.
Jumps should not play into SS at all, according to the criteria. SS is about skill with the blade on the ice. I agree that if used effectively the 3Lo+3Lo can impact CH or IN, but it is just one choreographic element of a program out of many, so it will not pull those marks much on it's own.
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- Mar 19, 2006
Thinking about this and don't know if I agree - not that it makes any difference to the judges but - edge use in and out of a jump? To me SS and the -3 to +3 could count on that aspect of a jump. ???? The line out of jumps is one of my favorite things to see, and it is dependent on how well they are using the blade so....? Or is it as soon as they "telegraph" they are preparing for the jump the SS stops and jump only is judged from start to finish??? Then back to allowing the SS to count????
I want to hear from Judges, at least I think there are some here but fess up to being a judge and let us know. Please.
Like it or not, big jumps tend to increase PCS.
The PCS of Jouber's FS has jumped almost 4 points by three quads, and Mao's 3A virtually adds extra 2-3 points on PCS.
3Lo+3Lo is that kind of a wow factor. No woman did this combo in competitions since Lipinski (Mao did once in an exhibition), and its rarity gives extra values.
I hope someone tests the theory.
The PCS of Jouber's FS has jumped almost 4 points by three quads, and Mao's 3A virtually adds extra 2-3 points on PCS.
3Lo+3Lo is that kind of a wow factor. No woman did this combo in competitions since Lipinski (Mao did once in an exhibition), and its rarity gives extra values.
I hope someone tests the theory.
True for many ISU judges. And those of us who judge the PCs according to the criteria don't like it.
Thinking about this and don't know if I agree - not that it makes any difference to the judges but - edge use in and out of a jump?
I want to hear from Judges, at least I think there are some here but fess up to being a judge and let us know. Please.
Since you asked for the opinion of a judge, here we go one more time. The criteria for SS are:
- Balance, rhythmic knee action, precision of foot placement
- Flow and effortless glide
- Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns
- Power, energy and acceleration
- Mastery of multi-directional skating
- Mastery of one foot skating
- Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison (pairs and dance)
SS is about skill with the blade on the ice. Not jumps. The jump element begins with the preparation and ends with the landing (with takeoff and air the other two phases. Entry edge and landing edge are part of the jump GoE.
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- Mar 19, 2006
Thanks for the explanation, and coming out.
Maybe it was just me that didn't know??? But appreciated none the less.So no part of the blade use into or out of the jump is accounted in SS, just the jumps -3 to +3. ??? plus the base value. Am I correct? - I have a feeling that is a rhetorical question but want to be sure.
Thanks for the explanation, and coming out.
So no part of the blade use into or out of the jump is accounted in SS, just the jumps -3 to +3. ??? plus the base value. Am I correct? - I have a feeling that is a rhetorical question but want to be sure.
Technical issues in the preparation and landing phases are included in the GoE of the jump. They doesn't get judged again in SS. The jumps as a contribution to the choreographic/artistic aspects of the program are considered in the PCs; but not because of their technical difficulty, but because of what they contribute to the "purpose" of the program. That would include, as some examples, the placement of the jumps on the ice in relation to pattern and ice coverage, the use of the jumps in relation to use of space, the timing of the jumps in terms of the phrasing of the music, the use of the jumps to highlight accents in the music, etc.
The same, of course, is also true of the placement of spins, and the step sequences in the program. They get judged in GoE for their technical content, and they are also considered in the PCs when it comes to their contribution to the choreography and interpretation.
One of the hard parts of learning how to use IJS is figuring out what gets marked where. They created all these marks to evaluate a program, and sometines it does get confusing. For the system to work correctly it is essential that everything be accounted for in the correct mark, that nothing be left out, but also that nothing be counted twice. Unfortunately the descriptions of the criteria are not very clear in some cases, and some of the criteria overlap.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Sean, as far as I can see, the only place where jump entries and exits are mentioned in the program components criteria comes in the section on Transitions: "The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movement and holds (pairs and dance) that link all elements...This also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements."
So I take that to mean doing something out of the ordinary, not just skating straight in on your take-off edge. I don't think it is intended to reward just a good, clean, strong but ordinary take-off or a smooth, flowing landing. Those, however, are two of the four standards that give you positive GOE on the element.
On the question of whether a wow moment (a triple loop/triple loop, for instance) counts toward anything in the PCSs, the best bet seems to be in the criteria for Performance/Execution:
But as Dr. R. points out, this is for the program as a whole -- any one elements contributes only a small moment.
So I take that to mean doing something out of the ordinary, not just skating straight in on your take-off edge. I don't think it is intended to reward just a good, clean, strong but ordinary take-off or a smooth, flowing landing. Those, however, are two of the four standards that give you positive GOE on the element.
On the question of whether a wow moment (a triple loop/triple loop, for instance) counts toward anything in the PCSs, the best bet seems to be in the criteria for Performance/Execution:
Examples: Irina Slutskaya, 2005 Worlds LP; Shen and Zhao, 2003 Worlds LP.
But as Dr. R. points out, this is for the program as a whole -- any one elements contributes only a small moment.
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