In a class of his own: Orser owned 2013-14 season

[Meoima]

Oops i mean 2012 of course, I am refering to this
......
My expression: Although Dai rightly won the FS with higher PCS, but the overmarking of Hanyu's PCS overall made difference where he beat Dai by 5 points.

Dai got 96 PCS for this FS in Japan National 2012, which means 6.3 points different, so the judges did appreciate Dai's artistry.
Dai also scored higher PCS in SP but lost due to Hanyu's monstrous' TES.

I think the overall replacements were quite justified here. Hanyu won thanked to his SP and he did lose his LP.
I am not a fan of Hanyu's LP these 2 seasons but David Wilson knows enough to design a point-collecting-program.

Anyways, don't forget it's national champion so the scores are usually much higher than international competition.

 

[Alba]

People..people...

Talk about this instead :yes:

http://youtu.be/wmoYP1oKQUU

:thumbsup:

 

[pec0]

You started like that and continued like this: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ating-be-removed-from-the-Olympic-games/page4

starting with

and this:

Have a good read.

Now, I'm really leaving you to it because i do not intend to transform this topic into another Yuna vs mao trash discussion.
I've already done the damage by replying to your in first place, because I thought you were serious.
Cheers.

But those are the truth, arnt they?
The difference between Olympic and regular international competition is the appearance of the Queen, and Koreans judges always deduct anything Asada does, and always infrate anything the Queen does.

 

[giulia95]

. Hanyu of 2 years ago would never finish a program with 2 different quads and 8 triples, for sure. He has matured a lot, in term of stamina AND basic skating skills.

I think there’s no evidence Hanyu increased his stamina under Orser.. the evidence is that Hanyu immediately became a zombie and remained the same throughout the whole preOlys season, from 2012 Finland Throphy to 2013 London World. No changes were made his the training policy though , the kid struggle like a crazy and it was very painful to watch, probably people forgot about that , but I didn’t.

On the contrary, it seems that nutrition changes played a tremendous role in this extremely severe scenario and "True Love" exibition in June 2013, which was Yuzu’s first appearance after London Worlds and after he spent some months in Japan , showed finally a healthy kid that was able to mantain his good physical condition till Saitama. Nutrition and diet changes were made in Japan. Probably Yuzu's trainer played a big role too in the Olys season.

About skating skills it seems they're very subjective since I use to read many different opinions about the same skater ..It's confusing..:scratch:

 

[OS]

Dai got 96 PCS for this FS in Japan National 2012, which means 6.3 points different, so the judges did appreciate Dai's artistry.
Dai also scored higher PCS in SP but lost due to Hanyu's monstrous' TES.

I think the overall replacements were quite justified here. Hanyu won thanked to his SP and he did lose his LP.
I am not a fan of Hanyu's LP these 2 seasons but David Wilson knows enough to design a point-collecting-program.

Anyways, don't forget it's national champion so the scores are usually much higher than international competition.

From the performance alone, their PCS should have a bigger difference, by at least 10-15 points to my mind. Bear in mind it is only Hanyu's 2nd season, but some how he is getting veteran scores already in PCS when performance wise he simply did not deliver up to the standard to warrant that sort of PCS. For SP, their base value difference is actually not that 'monstrous' and only 5 points apart. I agree Hanyu's greatest strength is his TES, but is his PCS so close to Dai even in the SP? 43.90 vs 44.65

http://www.jsfresults.com/National/2012-2013/fs_e/national/data0103.pdf

Anyway sorry to get side tracked with this PCS talk but it has been bothered me for a while. I remember noticing this inflation trend regardless of how Hanyu performed, his PCS doesn't drop and thought it signaled Chan's possible demise even then, even I had been touting Hanyu as future OGM since the beginning, I didn't dream of this sort of win. I admit I really prefer Chan's programs this year (even though not a massive fan) and really appreciate the fact he brought his 4T3T for both short and long, but what happened in Sochi is truly regretful for me as a fan of skating, that is why I can't quite get over the premise anyone deserve any award associated with it. Plushy should have won it even with tribute to himself, that is how weird the competition got.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

We shouldn't take PCS too seriously, the placements were that matter. Overall I think they all deserve their wins, who will remember the PCS eventually? I have stated this many times: Judging is coming back to the ordinal system. Or I would say it always has been ordinal.

If you asked Hanyu or Yuna, are they willing to give up their world records for more golds, undoubtedly they would say yes. Scores only matter to the placements, who cares if you won by 0.30 point or by 30 points?

AGAIN: Still don't understand the connection between PCS inflation and Orser's achievements here.

Edited:


Agree! Orser totally deserves this title.

I don't think Orser's achievements have anything to do with Hanyu's inflation. Orser seems to be the type of coach to avoid getting too political -- as in, he'll actually coach his students to improve their PCS and not lobby for higher PCS or whine about PCS of other skaters. He lets the skating and his coaching speak for itself.

There is an issue in the scores being inflated is that it gives these skaters a huge advantage in future events, especially if they don't happen to skate well. At the beginning of last year, Lipnitskaia had to skate perfectly to get 61 points PCS. Come Sochi, she falls and steps out in her FS and gets 70 points PCS. Kostner has to skate perfectly with 7 triples in Sochi to get 73 points PCS, and then she lands only 3 triples in Saitama and gets higher PCS.

There's the other issue that if Kostner is rewarded with 73.78 points PCS for 3 triples, what's the point in other skaters landing 7 triples like Pogorilaya? PCS starts to run the sport, and "save" skaters who make many errors. We've seen it with Chan and Kostner and Asada and Hanyu, and it's becoming a race to get past PCS thresholds and then skate however you like. Skaters' PCS should be significantly decreased when they make errors, and consistent when they skate well. A skater shouldn't be able to go from 60 to 70 points PCS or from 82 to 92 in the course of a few months, unless they legitimately make such a significant improvement. It basically separates them from the pack enough to permit them to get away with errors, or get easy wins.

 

[Meoima]

I think there’s no evidence Hanyu increased his stamina under Orser.

Hanyu of 2 years ago often fell at his 3S at the final section of his Romeo 1.0 (except for the world 2012 LP). Hanyu this season might often fall on the 4S, but still able to execute 3S in the final combination almost out of no speed. That's obviously the evidence of his better stamina.

About skating skills it seems they're very subjective since I use to read many different opinions about the same skater ..It's confusing..:scratch:

His SP in 2012 season, eventhough lovely, was not very successful. His PW is the massive development. If you compare PW of 2012 to PW of 2013, you will see the improvement in his basic skills. I think we should give Orser's team some credit for that improvement.

 

[Meoima]

There is an issue in the scores being inflated is that it gives these skaters a huge advantage in future events, especially if they don't happen to skate well.

With the new scoring guidelines, who knows if next season, PCS will stay the same as this season?

Let's not forget skaters often received highscores during Olympic season. PChan also had world record this season which I doubt that could be easy to break in the near future. We shouldn't think too much about PCS this off-season.

I think next season, with the inevitable drop of TES, PCS will drop simultaneously for sure.

 

[giulia95]

Hanyu of 2 years ago often fell at his 3S at the final section of his Romeo 1.0 (except for the world 2012 LP). Hanyu this season might often fall on the 4S, but still able to execute 3S in the final combination almost out of no speed. That's obviously the evidence of his better stamina.

His SP in 2012 season, eventhough lovely, was not very successful. His PW is the massive development. If you compare PW of 2012 to PW of 2013, you will see the improvement in his basic skills. I think we should give Orser's team some credit for that improvement.

17 yo Hanyu was miraculously able to skate and competing in the earthquake season and had to do 60 summer shows in order to train . But the 17 yo kid with a very precarious training environment was much better and expressed much more artistry than the 18 yo zombie Hanyu . Just compare the 17 kid to the 18yo Yuzu and Nice Worlds to London Worlds.

About 2012 PW I’m still confused, I don’t see any dramatic development in Yuzu’s skating skills which justifie PECS increase. :scratch:

 

[Meoima]

17 yo Hanyu was miraculously able to skate and competing in the earthquake season and had to do 60 summer shows in order to train . But the 17 yo kid with a very precarious training environment was much better and expressed much more artistry than the 18 yo zombie Hanyu . Just compare the 17 kid to the 18yo Yuzu and Nice Worlds to London Worlds.

Hanyu's LP in 2012-2013 season, even though a failure, was much more demanding than his Romeo 1.0 (83.61 BV > 79.25 BV). Both time he was skating while injured but 2013 his injuries were much worse. Not to mention the sudden change in environment (Japan to Canada), he needed time to adjust.

About 2012 PW I’m still confued, I don’t see any dramatic development in Yuzu’s skating skills which justifie PECS increase. :scratch:

I have rewatched his PW at Skate America last year and at Sochi this year. BIG improvement regarding speed, confidence, jumps and spins. His SP at Saitama, eventhough with a fall at the 4T, was excecuted with an insane speed (some people attended worlds also stated that). If his skating skills haven't improved, there would be no way he can gain such speed.

Orser DID tell Hanyu to put out the 4S in his LP, but the kid was against it, hence all the falls at 4S. That was not Orser's fault, but Yuzuru's stubbornness.

Orser team DID help Hanyu stabilize his basic skills. His dying Juliet long program this season, even though a lackluster, was so much better than last year. 2 different quads and 8 triple which overall were quite cleanly landed at Saitama, that was a big achievement. Please give Orser some credit for Hanyu's success.

 

[sajoya]

17 yo Hanyu was miraculously able to skate and competing in the earthquake season and had to do 60 summer shows in order to train . But the 17 yo kid with a very precarious training environment was much better and expressed much more artistry than the 18 yo zombie Hanyu . Just compare the 17 kid to the 18yo Yuzu and Nice Worlds to London Worlds.

^ I think that really shows just how bad David Wilson's choreography was for Yuzuru, IMO

 

[cruzceleste]

17 yo Hanyu was miraculously able to skate and competing in the earthquake season and had to do 60 summer shows in order to train . But the 17 yo kid with a very precarious training environment was much better and expressed much more artistry than the 18 yo zombie Hanyu . Just compare the 17 kid to the 18yo Yuzu and Nice Worlds to London Worlds.

About 2012 PW I’m still confused, I don’t see any dramatic development in Yuzu’s skating skills which justifie PECS increase. :scratch:

I think that´s an unfair comparision, for both Yuzuru and David Wilson.

Yuzuru was in very bad health back in 2013. With just one week training before worlds he did what he could. And even bofore that a severe asthma attack in september of 2012 affected his body a lot, losing weight and muscle. Even so his steps and edges improved lots.

The Yuzuru from the olympic season show better how the trainning improved his energy levels. His PW was a masterpiece in presentation, but let´s agree to disagree since you don´t see anything special on it, with out losing the thecnichal difficulty, and I like a lot his WC 2014 program.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

With the new scoring guidelines, who knows if next season, PCS will stay the same as this season?

Let's not forget skaters often received highscores during Olympic season. PChan also had world record this season which I doubt that could be easy to break in the near future. We shouldn't think too much about PCS this off-season.

I think next season, with the inevitable drop of TES, PCS will drop simultaneously for sure.

Oh, I think PChan's World records will be broken by Hanyu. And they should be, given Hanyu is attempting more difficult content than Chan and his artistry is steadily improving. However, I'm glad Hanyu's GPF freeskate didn't beat Chan's record set at TEB... not because I wanted Chan's record maintained, but because it would look really bad if the top FS of all time had a fall in it.

 

[Sandpiper]

Like Meoima, for the most part, I don't care what the scores/PCS/whatever are as long as the final placements are correct. However, there some things that would worry me (e.g. if Hanyu's SP in Sochi outscored Chan's by a full 10 points... and then he proceeds to win against Chan with the 2-fall LP... I'd worry if the judges might've given it to Hanyu even if Chan skated the long perfectly). But frankly, PCS is so crazy nowadays, especially for the men, one can only shrug and move on.

I think PCS absolutely should be scored in relation to technical merit. It's a sport, after all, and the people with difficult elements executed well should win. Good performers should be rewarded, of course--Dai's high PCS in Sochi were long overdue. However, it would be rather baffling if his PCS led him to a win, when he couldn't land a single clean quad across two programs. (I also believe falls need to be punished harder though, which would bring Yuzu's TES closer to Dai's).

I'm glad Hanyu's GPF freeskate didn't beat Chan's record set at TEB... not because I wanted Chan's record maintained, but because it would look really bad if the top FS of all time had a fall in it.

That is indeed a terrifying thought.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think PCS absolutely should be scored in relation to technical merit. It's a sport, after all, and the people with difficult elements executed well should win. Good performers should be rewarded, of course--Dai's high PCS in Sochi were long overdue. However, it would be rather baffling if his PCS led him to a win, when he couldn't land a single clean quad across two programs. (I also believe falls need to be punished harder though, which would bring Yuzu's TES closer to Dai's).

That is indeed a terrifying thought.

Well he had the 12th best TES scores in the SP, and 13th best TES in the FS, but his PCS scores were high enough to keep him 6th overall. It didn't lead to a win, but it certainly placed him above others who I thought deserved higher placement.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In the aspect of coaching is it a fair consensus here that PCS is the most direct impact a coach can make on a skater's scores? Obviously there is so much more to coaching not to be discounted like mental prep, technical maintenance, etc.. but it would seem to me that PCS score is where the coaches ultimate finger print may be identified. Is this correct? Is this what Brian means when he says he needs two years with a skater?

 

[Sandpiper]

Well he had the 12th best TES scores in the SP, and 13th best TES in the FS, but his PCS scores were high enough to keep him 6th overall. It didn't lead to a win, but it certainly placed him above others who I thought deserved higher placement.

I'm not sure about that. At least Dai stayed upright (I can't believe this is the standard, but such was the night...). But I guess there are two separate issues: Dai's PCS certainly weren't tied very closely to his TES, which is a problem. But I felt like his TES should've been closer to the top guys'. People with falls got substantially more TES than Dai with his downgrades. I get it--Dai's jumps weren't there in Sochi. But I don't think it's right that his double-downgraded quad toe got 2 points, while Hanyu's fall on the quad salchow got 6.5 (factoring in the -1 for the fall).

 

[Meoima]

In the aspect of coaching is it a fair consensus here that PCS is the most direct impact a coach can make on a skater's scores? Obviously there is so much more to coaching not to be discounted like mental prep, technical maintenance, etc.. but it would seem to me that PCS score is where the coaches ultimate finger print may be identified. Is this correct? Is this what Brian means when he says he needs two years with a skater?

Oh, he said so? Do you remember the interview? Thank you in advance.

 

[Bonesfan]

Quad Salchow base value is 10.5, Hanyu received -3 GOE = 7.5

I'm not sure about that. At least Dai stayed upright (I can't believe this is the standard, but such was the night...). But I guess there are two separate issues: Dai's PCS certainly weren't tied very closely to his TES, which is a problem. But I felt like his TES should've been closer to the top guys'. People with falls got substantially more TES than Dai with his downgrades. I get it--Dai's jumps weren't there in Sochi. But I don't think it's right that his double-downgraded quad toe got 2 points, while Hanyu's fall on the quad salchow got 6.5 (factoring in the -1 for the fall).

 

[Meoima]

Quad Salchow base value is 10.5, Hanyu received -3 GOE = 7.5

And -1 for the fall, so 6.5 as Sandpiper said was the right score.