Is having the Junior Pairs category the best solution for Pairs discipline?

[Anna K.]

There is an opinion that current age limitation policy should be changed for Pairs because it does not suit the needs of Junior Pairs category. But maybe there is something wrong with the Junior Pairs category? Random thoughts on the topic.

(I'm sorry, this is what this thread has turned into and maybe for the best. So I edited the OP once more, the final time.)

 

[Mathman]

Why can't a "Preliminary Pairs" category tied to senior age limits be held as part of Junior Grand Prix series instead?

I want to make sure that I understand your proposal. Is eligibility for the Preliminary Pairs category limited to skaters who are seniors by age -- that is, they have aged out of juniors -- but not yet skilled enough to compete on the senior circuit?

 

[ladyjane]

What category is this? Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by preliminary pairs. Does that mean a diffrent word for novice or advanced novice pairs?

I get that no pair should participate in both JGP and GP but that is the case already for jrs and srs. I would rather see that if you compete in jrs, you don't compete in srs and vice versa. but I don't get the link with a new category.

Lastly, I thought YOG did very well in setting the age limits - so these were young junior pairs, not just the girl. That there weren't many is beside the point.

 

[gkelly]

"Preliminary" within the US and some other federations refers to a much much lower skill level than "Junior."

There is no Preliminary pairs category in the US any more because they don't want skaters at that skill level to be attempting pair moves. The lowest pair level is "Juvenile" pairs, which does have an age limit and strict restrictions on the pair elements allowed/required.

Are you proposing that no one should ever attempt competitive pair skating until they reach the ISU senior age minimum. And then this discipline, for adults or near-adults only, should be divided by skill level?

Or are you OK with developmental levels in Pairs but want them divided more by skill level than by age, even though body maturity tends to play a bigger role in the skill level that male partners can achieve? (And physical immaturity on the part of the female partners makes some of the skills easier to achieve)

 

[Anna K.]

All right, too much confusion here caused by the original post (especially because I used the word "preliminary" forgetting that this category already exists ). I made some corrections; please, check out the edited OP and tell me if it looks like a normal point of discussion now!

 

[lariko]

All right, too much confusion here caused by the original post (especially because I used the word "preliminary" forgetting that this category already exists ). I made some corrections; please, check out the edited OP and tell me if it looks like a normal point of discussion now!

I reread the OP, and I still don't understand what you are proposing. Personally, I don't like large age gaps in pairs. When a guy looks like he is playing with a doll...eww. I think asking for exceptions if the boy aged out of juniors but the girl didn't, works fine to stay on a manageable skill level and allow a case-by-case decisions.

 

[gkelly]

Say you have an athletically talented 12- or 13-year-old girl who wants to skate pairs.

She is still pretty small, likely to grow in the next few years, but not likely to grow too much to be capable of skating pair moves by the time she reaches 17 and beyond.

Who can she look to for a potential pair partner?

Especially if there is a local coach who is capable of teaching pairs, the girl (and her family) are not willing to move thousands of miles away perhaps to another country and not willing to pay for a male partner to come to her.

*a boy close to her age and perhaps too close to her size be able to attempt advanced pair moves, and who also may be less advanced than her in basic skating skill and jumping ability

*an older teen boy who is at a similar singles skill level, not quite full grown but with enough of a size difference to make overhead lifts and at least double twists possible, if not the most advanced ones, and possibly with some previous lower level pairs experience

*an older teen/young man who is basically full grown, is at least as strong a skater and jumper, and may have previous pair experience, who would not be a good match for her on a social level (therefore not appropriate to choreograph romantic programs with) but who is able to safely execute difficult pair moves

*a male coach old enough to be her father who can teach her the pair moves but who could not compete with her

Can the choice depend on which male skaters interested in pairs might live near enough to train locally? Or if the age options are to be so narrow that no nearby male skaters in the right age range are interested in skating pairs, she needs to wait until she's several years older and able to relocate herself before even considering the discipline?

Can the choice to compete at intermediate or advanced novice or at junior level be made based both on the ages of the partners and the skill level they are able to train to for the next season?

 

[Anna K.]

I reread the OP, and I still don't understand what you are proposing.

What if I say: I propose starting doing harder elements at older age and (possibly) with a more experienced partner?

Personally, I don't like large age gaps in pairs. When a guy looks like he is playing with a doll...eww. I think asking for exceptions if the boy aged out of juniors but the girl didn't, works fine to stay on a manageable skill level and allow a case-by-case decisions.

I do not agree with that. Beccari/Guarise do not look like a guy throwing around a doll at all and they have a huge age gap. I'd say that they look fairly gorgeous. Which is thanks to the fact that Lucrezia is a fully grown woman even if much younger than Matteo.
A mature dude throwing around an under-age teen is exactly what may happen in the occasion you mentioned: when a young man aged out of juniors is allowed to perform with a girl who is under the senior age.

 

[Anna K.]

Say you have an athletically talented 12- or 13-year-old girl who wants to skate pairs.

Well, this young lady should certainly pick the option which is the best for her development and then try to arrange the conditions as close to this option as it is realistically possible. However, I am not an expert and hence I don't know which option would be the best for her development.

If you or anybody else can lit some light on it and tell what would be the most suitable from the development perspective, please, do it.

 

[ladyjane]

Say you have an athletically talented 12- or 13-year-old girl who wants to skate pairs.

She is still pretty small, likely to grow in the next few years, but not likely to grow too much to be capable of skating pair moves by the time she reaches 17 and beyond.

Who can she look to for a potential pair partner?

Especially if there is a local coach who is capable of teaching pairs, the girl (and her family) are not willing to move thousands of miles away perhaps to another country and not willing to pay for a male partner to come to her.

*a boy close to her age and perhaps too close to her size be able to attempt advanced pair moves, and who also may be less advanced than her in basic skating skill and jumping ability

*an older teen boy who is at a similar singles skill level, not quite full grown but with enough of a size difference to make overhead lifts and at least double twists possible, if not the most advanced ones, and possibly with some previous lower level pairs experience

*an older teen/young man who is basically full grown, is at least as strong a skater and jumper, and may have previous pair experience, who would not be a good match for her on a social level (therefore not appropriate to choreograph romantic programs with) but who is able to safely execute difficult pair moves

*a male coach old enough to be her father who can teach her the pair moves but who could not compete with her

Can the choice depend on which male skaters interested in pairs might live near enough to train locally? Or if the age options are to be so narrow that no nearby male skaters in the right age range are interested in skating pairs, she needs to wait until she's several years older and able to relocate herself before even considering the discipline?

Can the choice to compete at intermediate or advanced novice or at junior level be made based both on the ages of the partners and the skill level they are able to train to for the next season?

I think she has to wait until older to do the difficult moves. so either a boy close in age or a bit older. Sorry, then no difficult lifts to start with. I don't mind age gaps among adults (both skaters). I do mind it with little kids. And it will always be the little girl who is thrown around. Harder elements at a higher age as @Anna K. proposes.

 

[4everchan]

just restrain the age gaps... there are pairs, very close in age who can do harder elements without a problem and in a healthy manner. Why penalize those because some cannot do it and have to create partnerships with 5-6 years age difference ?

I am looking for instance at Behnke and Sauve from Canada with a 2 year age gap, winners of YOG with good triples in their programs.
Martina and Charly are also only two years apart. They had a bad LP at worlds this year but they have strong elements and a high base value. Also, they could even skate senior because their age gap is not ridiculous yet they have many more years of junior eligibility.

Coaches need to start thinking more about longer term development of these young pairs and stop going for the easy big boy tiny girl pairing that will create those big twists and easy lifts from the get go for instant gratification but also split to happen

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I must say, I don't understand what the fuss is all about.

Nationally, many countries allow older skaters (including pairs teams) to keep on competing Juniors for as long as they need to. Internationally, there are Senior B and Challengers for older pairs in earlier developmental stages/lower levels.

Almost 80% of the Jr pairs teams who were active this season (including those who only competed nationally) don't have eligibility issues, and apart from the two German pairs (one of which didn't make the Free), none of the teams at Jr Worlds run into eligibility issues - Which tells us that big age gaps are absolutely not necessary to succeed or be safe in pairs, even at the Jr level.
The oldest male partner at Jr Worlds (Tobija Harms) is a significantly weaker lifter than the 2nd youngest (Lucas Coulon) and has (almost and actually) dropped his partner multiple times this season during lifts, so age, and even experience, don't have to make someone a safer partner.

Pairs, in general, is a discipline that can both take a long time to perfect and at the same time be learned at a later age in life, as a lot of singles skills are transferable, so it does not have to be a bad thing when skaters have to wait some time to find a suitable partner to compete with. Many (if not even the majority of pairs skaters) don't (fully) switch to pairs until 14-16 (women) / 17-19 (men) because of the physical and mental demands of the discipline anyway. In any partnered discipline whether it's pairs, ice dance or other sports like ballroom dancing, there will be situations where athletes will not find suitable partners, if because of age, physical fit, training style, age, skill level, or many more - If a disciplines cannot survive that "natural" selection, maybe the existence of that discipline in general should be questioned.

It is also the responsibility of coaches to make sure their athletes are prepared for the level of difficulty they will be attempting. If you know your male partner is a weak lifter, don't make them do lifts that are intended for level 3s or 4s, have them do base-level lifts until they can safely do more difficult elements, and when you don't, that's at best negligent on your part as a coach (and should be penalised harder, imo).
On the other hand, not allowing more difficult elements until skaters are Sr eligible is not helpful either, as teams even of the same age will develop at different paces and those who develop more quickly shouldn't be kept back as long as they are safe - Look at Flores/Wang, they won't be Sr eligible until 2025/26, but should they just be doing doubles until then because the skill level they are supposed to be at isn't matching the skill level they have?

 

[Anna K.]

just restrain the age gaps... there are pairs, very close in age who can do harder elements without a problem and in a healthy manner. Why penalize those because some cannot do it and have to create partnerships with 5-6 years age difference ?

I am looking for instance at Behnke and Sauve from Canada with a 2 year age gap, winners of YOG with good triples in their programs.
Martina and Charly are also only two years apart. They had a bad LP at worlds this year but they have strong elements and a high base value. Also, they could even skate senior because their age gap is not ridiculous yet they have many more years of junior eligibility.

Coaches need to start thinking more about longer term development of these young pairs and stop going for the easy big boy tiny girl pairing that will create those big twists and easy lifts from the get go for instant gratification but also split to happen

Does the OP sound like I am demanding a huge age gap between partners?

For clarity: no, same age or small age gap partnerships shall not be penalized. They are simply expected to debut their tripples in competition when the youngest of them is 17.

 

[4everchan]

Does the OP sound like I am demanding a huge age gap between partners?

For clarity: no, same age or small age gap partnerships shall not be penalized. They are simply expected to debut their tripples in competition when the youngest of them is 17.

i am not saying you are demanding it.. i am saying that restraining it and cultivating a different approach in making partnerships solves the problems you have listed ... triples at 17?? really ? have you watched novice skaters ? they land the triples at much younger age than that....

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Coaches need to start thinking more about longer term development of these young pairs and stop going for the easy big boy tiny girl pairing that will create those big twists and easy lifts from the get go for instant gratification but also split to happen

Not just that it is an issue with age requirements, but it can also actually hamper the development of the skaters and their ability to form partnerships with other skaters.

There's a number of pairs men I can think of who never really developed the strength or skill set to safely lift and throw girls who were closer to them in age and had an appropriate height and weight for their age, so they constantly had to keep on getting new younger and younger partners, until they literally couldn't anymore because of their own age and ended up quitting the sport.

Not to even speak of the pairs women who "grew too tall" and "became too heavy" and were thrown away like washed-up beauty queens and quit the sport because they a) couldn't find new partners or b) were so disillusioned by what they were constantly being told.

 

[lariko]

What if I say: I propose starting doing harder elements at older age and (possibly) with a more experienced partner?

So you want a big age gap, with male skaters having a long line of female partners. I pass. I like couple close in age. Sometimes it works like it does for Guarise, sometimes, like that American skater, they just end up injuring ever younger partners that they form short partnerships with, because they are supposed to be 'experienced'.

 

[Anna K.]

triples at 17?? really ? have you watched novice skaters ? they land the triples at much younger age than that....

Well, I just read the technical requirements for Novice Pairs.
It says that:

Basic Novice competitions will consist of a Free Skating program only.

A well balanced Free Skating program must contain a maximum of:
a) Two lifts, one from Group 1 and one from Group 2, one arm holds not allowed (full extension of the lifting arm of the partner is not required)
b) One twist lift (single)
c) One solo jump (single or double)
d) One solo spin in one position or one pair spin.The solo spin can be executed with a change of foot and a minimum of eight (8) revolutions in total or without a change of foot and a minimum of five (5) revolutions. The pair spin must be executed with a minimum five (5) revolutions.
e) One pivot figure
f) One step sequence fully utilizing the ice surface.

Pair Skating Advanced Novice
The Short Program for Pair Skating shall consist of the following elements

:a) One lift of Groups 1 to 4, one arm holds not allowed
b) One twist lift (single or double
)c) One solo jump (double)
d) One solo spin combo no change foot (minimum of six (6) revolutions)
e) One death spiral
f) One step sequence fully utilizing the ice surface

A well balanced Free Skating program must contain a maximum of:
a) Two different lifts of Groups 1 to 4, one arm holds not allowed, (in group 1 and 2 full extension of the lifting arm of the partner is not required).
b) One twist lift (single or double)
c) One throw jump (double)
d) One solo jump (double)
e) One pair spin combination (minimum of six (6) revolutions)
f) One death spiral

 

[Jumping_Bean]

They are simply expected to debut their tripples in competition when the youngest of them is 17.

And what problem does this solve?

Triples are not the biggest danger in pairs skating at a lower level (at Jr Worlds, the majority of teams didn't even attempt triple twists, throws or jumps). Yes, skaters fall from them often, but considering the lack of height on most throws in Junior pairs, it's not much different than falling on a triple jump.

The biggest danger in Jr pairs is lifts, and you can't really avoid those until you're 17, male skaters have to build up strength as juniors and female skaters have to get used to being lifted (weight distribution, body tension, positioning, ...).

 

[4everchan]

Well, I just read the technical requirements for Advanced Novice Pairs.
It says that:

Basic Novice competitions will consist of a Free Skating program only.

A well balanced Free Skating program must contain a maximum of:
a) Two lifts, one from Group 1 and one from Group 2, one arm holds not allowed (full extension of the lifting arm of the partner is not required)
b) One twist lift (single)
c) One solo jump (single or double)
d) One solo spin in one position or one pair spin.The solo spin can be executed with a change of foot and a minimum of eight (8) revolutions in total or without a change of foot and a minimum of five (5) revolutions. The pair spin must be executed with a minimum five (5) revolutions.
e) One pivot figure
f) One step sequence fully utilizing the ice surface.

Pair Skating Advanced Novice
The Short Program for Pair Skating shall consist of the following elements

:a) One lift of Groups 1 to 4, one arm holds not allowed
b) One twist lift (single or double
)c) One solo jump (double)
d) One solo spin combo no change foot (minimum of six (6) revolutions)
e) One death spiral
f) One step sequence fully utilizing the ice surface

A well balanced Free Skating program must contain a maximum of:
a) Two different lifts of Groups 1 to 4, one arm holds not allowed, (in group 1 and 2 full extension of the lifting arm of the partner is not required).
b) One twist lift (single or double)
c) One throw jump (double)
d) One solo jump (double)
e) One pair spin combination (minimum of six (6) revolutions)
f) One death spiral

I am talking about triples in singles for novices... the point is that you do not create pair skaters in a bubble... they come from the singles discipline and they learn triples earlier. So if they have them, it makes sense to use them.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Well, I just read the technical requirements for Advanced Novice Pairs.
It says that:

Basic Novice competitions will consist of a Free Skating program only.

A well balanced Free Skating program must contain a maximum of:
a) Two lifts, one from Group 1 and one from Group 2, one arm holds not allowed (full extension of the lifting arm of the partner is not required)
b) One twist lift (single)
c) One solo jump (single or double)
d) One solo spin in one position or one pair spin.The solo spin can be executed with a change of foot and a minimum of eight (8) revolutions in total or without a change of foot and a minimum of five (5) revolutions. The pair spin must be executed with a minimum five (5) revolutions.
e) One pivot figure
f) One step sequence fully utilizing the ice surface.

They're not talking specifically about pairs, but also about singles skaters.

When 9/10-year olds are doing triple jumps, a 15-year-old doing triple throws is not the issue.