- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
You stole words from my mouth. I think once judges were plying more on the pcs, now on the Goes. it seemes to me judges at this event had no idea how to score spirals....did they read the isu parameters?
Ladies LP scores question
- Thread starter Bennett
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You stole words from my mouth. I think once judges were plying more on the pcs, now on the Goes. it seemes to me judges at this event had no idea how to score spirals....did they read the isu parameters?
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
Zhang got 1.60 goe for her spiral!! And that is actually too much because she almost does not travel on the ice. the only time she got zero goe and level 1 was because she rushed through it and didn't hold the positions long enough.
I actually think stretch is TOO rewarded. this is skating, not rythmic gymnastics
: a spiral is not only the free leg position but should also take account of what you do with your skate (you know?)
Even in the SP, Zhang had 4.8 on the spiral, which was the highest-scoring spiral along with Mao's (4.8). What do you mean she traveled no distance?! She most certainly traced out a serpentine in her COE spiral, and completed the circle (of half of the rink) in her backward Biellmann! And she does not stroke especially much before and in-between her spirals. This is the standard spiral layout for most ladies. It is Carolina who travels little in her spiral sequence, choosing to trace a figure 8 along the width instead of the length of the rink. Now that's unorthodox. A few year's ago, that kind of spiral pattern would've received automatic deductions.
Maybe Caroline's a little slow getting through her spirals, but she has the distance and the right amount of edging, too. Spirals are supposed to trace out a big circle along the border of the rink, not squashed into a tiny circle. It's because she's small and light that doing the same pattern means that she looks like she has less of a lean. Laws of physics, can't get away from it. Imagine the rink to be 50% bigger for all the other girls, if they had to trace the spirals along the borders, of course their edges would be shallower too!
I actually think stretch is TOO rewarded. this is skating, not rythmic gymnastics
It is not just the stretch of the free leg, also the back, and especially the skating leg. It is much harder to do the spiral with a straight skating knee than bent. Take a look at Caroline's knee, and then Carolina's.
Two other things to look at, especially in the COE spiral, are the smoothness of the change of edge (Caroline is the steadiest among the current ladies, IMHO; Michelle's COE was also stellar in this sense), and also not dropping the free leg when going from a freely held leg to a catch-foot one, or vice versa. This shows strength, a "true" stretch, and stability of edging. Caroline's spiral is also excellent in this sense. The lack of speed is the only reason why she's not getting more +3 GOE's in her spiral sequence.
In the current rendition of CoP rules for the spiral, it's a mandatory level 1 if the free-standing spiral is not held for at least 3 seconds. Along with other current rules on the spirals, the free-standing spiral is almost always the front end of the COE spiral. If you start the spiral a little late, it's easy to get level 1 -- this is what happened to both Caroline and Mao when they got level 1 spirals this season.
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- Joined
- May 17, 2007
Well thanks for all of the responses guys!!!
Referring, to Mao and her 3A, if the judges thought is was 2 footed than I guess it was...
Concerning Caroline and her spiral, I know that she got high + GOEs for her spiral, but I was just talking about her not getting at least +1 from all the judges. I thought the stretch in the free leg and back, unique positions, and edges compensated for a little lack of speed. It's ok though because YES she did get like 1.40 for it in the long.
Thanks guys!
Referring, to Mao and her 3A, if the judges thought is was 2 footed than I guess it was...
Concerning Caroline and her spiral, I know that she got high + GOEs for her spiral, but I was just talking about her not getting at least +1 from all the judges. I thought the stretch in the free leg and back, unique positions, and edges compensated for a little lack of speed. It's ok though because YES she did get like 1.40 for it in the long.
Thanks guys!
Wow. You and I have quite opposite idea about Caro K's spiral!
I thought Caro's 'along the width' spiral would be more difficult because... you know, it is along the width!
I mean, if you can't control your edge really well, it's almost impossible to make such a serpentine in such a short length!
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- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
Levels, levels, levels. Too bad none of Yu-Na's spins look very good (except for that exquisite position she hits in the Camel spin where her body is facing upwards).
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2007
Wow. You and I have quite opposite idea about Caro K's spiral!
I thought Caro's 'along the width' spiral would be more difficult because... you know, it is along the width!
I mean, if you can't control your edge really well, it's almost impossible to make such a serpentine in such a short length!
yup, that's about it.
quote from feraina:
Even in the SP, Zhang had 4.8 on the spiral, which was the highest-scoring spiral along with Mao's (4.8). What do you mean she traveled no distance?! She most certainly traced out a serpentine in her COE spiral, and completed the circle (of half of the rink) in her backward Biellmann! And she does not stroke especially much before and in-between her spirals. This is the standard spiral layout for most ladies. It is Carolina who travels little in her spiral sequence, choosing to trace a figure 8 along the width instead of the length of the rink. Now that's unorthodox. A few year's ago, that kind of spiral pattern would've received automatic deductions.
Maybe Caroline's a little slow getting through her spirals, but she has the distance and the right amount of edging, too. Spirals are supposed to trace out a big circle along the border of the rink, not squashed into a tiny circle. It's because she's small and light that doing the same pattern means that she looks like she has less of a lean. Laws of physics, can't get away from it. Imagine the rink to be 50% bigger for all the other girls, if they had to trace the spirals along the borders, of course their edges would be shallower too!
Two other things to look at, especially in the COE spiral, are the smoothness of the change of edge (Caroline is the steadiest among the current ladies, IMHO; Michelle's COE was also stellar in this sense), and also not dropping the free leg when going from a freely held leg to a catch-foot one, or vice versa. This shows strength, a "true" stretch, and stability of edging. Caroline's spiral is also excellent in this sense. The lack of speed is the only reason why she's not getting more +3 GOE's in her spiral sequence."
feraina:
first of all you answered to my post as if i was comparing Zhang and Kostner and I was just talking about zhang.
Then, if you want to do the comparison I am here for it:
1st) it is much more difficult to do a change of edge in the shorter side of the rink, bc if you can't control your edge well you'll end up slamming onto the boards...your comment makes me think you really know nothing about basic skating skills
2nd) you say it's not just about the free leg, but you keep on talking about nothing that relates to skating (back, knee). news for you: several skaters cannot fully extend their knees because they have too many muscles, not because it is easier to do the spiral. Zhang and mao are the only ones with an hyperextended knee (typical of gymnastics): I think it makes the position prettier, but it shouldn't be a requirement
3rd) do you realize that making a serpentine in a short length and going straight in a longer length might end up being the same distance? What i meant is that Zhang is so slow that it looks like she is going to a stop when she does her spiral. if she were to do the change of edge in the short side of the rink she would be too slow to hold such a deep edge (it's physics)...ok, maybe here I'm exagerating, but you get the point
4th) I don't see caroline's so brilliant change of edge: yes, it is smooth, but it's because there is almost no edge! It's exactly like Sasha's spiral, the blade is flat on the ice.
5th) to sum up: spirals should get Goe combined from both the "body" position, flexibility, edges, flow, and speed
Well... that's not exactly straight forward (no pun intended
), because in the limit of very small circles, you get... a spin! 
Part of the reason why Carolina's skating knee is often bent is because that knee-bend facilitates a tighter circle (also why skaters go into spins with a deep knee bend, that gets the tight circles going). I think under CoP, judges are more open to unorthodox spiral patterns (though they still dislike a bent skating knee). But if Carolina had patterned her same spirals along the length of the rink, then the judges might have reduced GOE for it -- it's clear right now that she intends to make these smaller circles, not because she's unable to make bigger ones.
ETA: I'm using Carolina and Caroline as examples, because they were brought up before in the context of spirals, I didn't mean to especially single out skaters. Also, there seemed to be perplexity over why Caroline gets as high a GOE as she does for spirals, and I was trying to explain why. I may not be exactly spot-on for my explanation of what goes into the considerations of spiral scoring -- I would be interested to hear what others think about why Caroline gets higher GOE's than everyone else (currently skating).
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I was talking mainly about the skating knee. Straight skating knee is very important in a good spiral, just listen to Peggy Flemming or Nancy Kerrigan, or any level of (girls) skating coaches.
Um. My 7th grade geometry class taught me that two circles of longer radius can be inscribed along the length of the rink than the width of the circle, and that the circumference is proportional to the radius. Last I checked, geometry of the ice rink follows Euclidean geometry.
I think I said several times that her lack of speed is the main weakness... but a couple of people were talking about the amount of ice she covers.
*shrug* So you lose some, you gain some, when you're smaller. You can generate less speed (not just the spiral but in genral), but then it's maybe easier to do a COE spiral. Might as well capitalize on your strengths since you can't easily change your height/size, right?
ITA.
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Well, maybe there her great in-air height/distance, and solid landing, made up for the telegraphing. Otherwise, perhaps she would get +2 GOE like Yu-na.
I see. Thank you for your explanations!
What about two-foot then? Does two-foot require mandatory deduction? Can't it be made up for by the other good qualities???
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2007
Here is a list of what I think the judges look for in a jump
1. Transition move into the jump (lengthy telegraphing-, Ina/spread eagle+, Steps beforehand+)
2. Speed going into the jump
3. Proper edge take off (flutzing/lipping-)
4. Air position (wrap-)
5. Height/Distance
6. Landing position (two-foot, step-out)
7. Speed running out of the jump
Yu-Na's 3F-3T might be the best example of what the judges love.
1. Transition move into the jump (lengthy telegraphing-, Ina/spread eagle+, Steps beforehand+)
2. Speed going into the jump
3. Proper edge take off (flutzing/lipping-)
4. Air position (wrap-)
5. Height/Distance
6. Landing position (two-foot, step-out)
7. Speed running out of the jump
Yu-Na's 3F-3T might be the best example of what the judges love.
Hmm... Depends on how severe the two-footing is. If the skater really needed to put the free leg down to support his/her weight, I think most judges would give -2 GOE regardless of the rest of the jump. If the two-footing is "incidental", as in just brushing the ice but not really needing it for support (I think this is the case for Mao Asada), then I think it can be counter-acted by other positive qualities of the jump. Part of the variability in the GOE's given to Mao Asada's 3A may be due to how much the individual judges thought the other aspects made up for the landing.
I think the problem with CoP is not so much that Mao's hard jumps didn't get high enough GOE's -- I think probably her GOE's are consistent with how other jumps are generally judged. Instead, CoP is just giving too little credit to hard elements like 3A and 3/3's. I think CoP should give a bonus for each 3-3, a bonus for each 3A (for women), and a bonus for having at least five different kinds of triples. Or they can just give a bonus for at least five different triples, and increase the base value of 3-3's and 3A's. Given that right now CoP does not give proper credit for really hard jumps and combos, I think the judges ought to have used the PCS to reward Mao Asada. Instead, they gave her even lower PCS than usual. I find that really puzzling.
I only saw Mao's LP once in a blurry youtube video, I couldn't really tell whether there was an "incidental" two-footing or not, especially in the 3f-3lp. I think it's especially hard to tell whether a jump in a combo followed by a loop is two-footed or not, as that the free leg stays in place (and pretty low) in preparation for the loop. Whereas for a 3x-3t, you actually have to take the free leg out and place it behind for the take-off, so if the first jump is two-footed, you can more easily tell, as the touch-down disrupts the flow of reaching back.
At least this time the technical specialist didn't downgrade two of Nakano's jumps that were more rotated than Kim's, so the judging within this competition was fairer.
Like I said then, Kim's 3Lo at the Cup of Russia was cheated and it comes as no surprise that she fell on it here.---
Kostner's landings in the short program were her steadiest this year and her free skate wasn't a surprise.
As for why her 3F+3T in the free skate scored the same as Caroline's, the dip on the landing of her 3T was bigger than it appeared. She was leaning forward in the air and in a still-frame of the landing, it appears certain that she would fall forward. But she somehow slowed her landing skate and the momentum of her upper body brought her back into balance.
As for her 3Lz+2Lo combination, her edge takeoff on the lutz was flat and she slightly two-footed the landing. Like with Asada, the combination with the loop jump causes the free foot to touch on the landing.
Kostner's 3Lo was good. She is one of the few ladies with a good 3Lo and a good 3T. :thumbsup:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Good List, ES -
but no. 2:Speed going into a jump is a MUST - not for the judges but for the skater. The faster one prepares for a jump, the easier it is to accomplish provided, of course, that the skater can do the jump. Slow pokes won't get the lift off. The only skater I saw who could jump a double axel from a standstill was Surya Bonaly, Now that I would call ballet-like.
No. 4 - Wrap is not illegal. It is an esthetic thing and judge in the eye of the beholder. Better to say good posture.
No. 7 - I would prefer to say Flow rather than speed or both combined.
I would add, and you know I would: 8. With the music (so that the skater does not have to stop and pose)
Now how do the judges handle this?
Joe
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2007
If a skater has a two foot the judges have to give it a -2 rite?!?! I thought that was the rules or did they change it?!?!
I think the spread of GOE penalty for two-footing is similar to GOE penalty for putting down a hand (or two). It depends on whether it is "incidental" or necessary for supporting the skater's weight.
In USFSA free skating tests, they certainly make a distinction between a serious two-footing and an "incidental" one. If it's a serious two-footing, and you cannot improve it in a reskate, then you fail the test by default. If it's a minor two-footing, then the judges might let you pass if you do other things well in the test. I know testing and competition don't follow exactly the same rules, nor is USFSA the same as ISU, but I think there is this general sense in skating judging that two-footing (and touch-down) are differentiated via severity.
In USFSA free skating tests, they certainly make a distinction between a serious two-footing and an "incidental" one. If it's a serious two-footing, and you cannot improve it in a reskate, then you fail the test by default. If it's a minor two-footing, then the judges might let you pass if you do other things well in the test. I know testing and competition don't follow exactly the same rules, nor is USFSA the same as ISU, but I think there is this general sense in skating judging that two-footing (and touch-down) are differentiated via severity.
Here is a good guide to COP from another forum:
http://www.mkforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7277
It's not entirely complete or up-to-date (or perfectly copy-edited), but I think it's quite informative on the whole.
http://www.mkforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7277
It's not entirely complete or up-to-date (or perfectly copy-edited), but I think it's quite informative on the whole.
