Russian Vs American...ladies.

[Excidra2001]

Russian Vs American...ladies.

This thread is not about which country is better then the other but just to compare the titles/medals.
As much as people want to lump Japan into the category, it's the Russian and American ladies who rule the ladies category.
I was just surfing the ISU site and I discovered that Russian ladies have won more gold/silver/bronze medals in the Grand prix circuit then any other country.
Everyone agrees that the American ladies are the leaders in the ladies category but if I didn't know I would've guessed them as leaders in Grand prix medal count.

isu.org/historical/fsgpmedals.html

P.S. This is not a thread to compare the talent of Russian/American ladies.

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

Excidra - Very difficult for me leave out Yukina Ota and the old standbye Fumie Seguri.

As for the Russian Ladies: Irina and Elena are just fine. I never thought much of Maria B as a competitor. Are there any others to speak of that we have seen? VV for me has reached her pinnacle and I don't see much more forthcoming. The Quad Queen has a lot to go

On the Ukrainian side, I do like very much, Galina Maniachenko but she has the butterfly problems.

The USA Ladies are obvious.

Joe

 

[Excidra2001]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

I'm surprised you think Vika is maxed out as a skater. That's exactly what I thought of her back in 2002 but she really proved me wrong by coming back strong at Cup of Russia(where she was 3rd heading into LP). She beat the current Grand prix final champion and former world champion.
You saw what she did this year at worlds, she landed her first 3/3 in her career and really wow'd a lot of people including me. She turned in a clean well skated SP and some how judges decided that they would tie her with flawed Sasha, how they came up with that decision don't ask me, and clearly should've been ahead of Fume and possibly Sasha in the LP.

As for Maria Butyrskaya. Let's give credit where credit is due. Maria is a competitior first and foremost. She is so driven to achieve her goals and prove her critics wrong. Her world title was no fluke, she won with grace,elegance and class. With skaters like Kwan/Slutskaya/Hughes and Cohen trying to take Maria out, she held her ground and stood in there. Just by doing that she deserves credit. How many 30 year old ladies do you see competiting against girls half her age? And she gave all of them a run for their money.
Maria might not be my favorite skater, but I have so much respect for what she has done.

Also, maybe you should read up on the Russian Junior ladies. There are some promising ladies in there. Some of them are so good that they are entered in Senior and Junior Russian natoinals in the same year. We don't get to seem because it's not televised.
As for the Quad Queen(Neldina Lud) I agree that she has some grounds to cover but let's not forget she has one heck of a team behind her.
There is also and 18 year old Kristina Oblasova who is soooo talented but doesn't have the right team behind her. I believe Kristina won Junior worlds with Cohen and Hughes competing against her.
If Kristina can find the right coach and team, look out world.

Who is Yukina Ota? Fumie Sugri is a great skater and one of my favorite but she has consistency problem and that sometimes gets in the way of her recognition. If she can become consistent with her skating and win a world title she can put Japan right up there with Russia/America.
A bronze medal at worlds is not going to put her side by side with the heavy weights.
Also, I hear that Japan's bright stars are in the age range of 12-14. is that true? If it's true then how many of them will be permanently injure their young bodies because of the difficult jumps they are attempting? I would guess half of them and the rest would probably have some sort of injury following them around through out their career.

Everyone knows the depth of the US ladies because we see(or watch them) at nationals every year. ABC usually shows the top 7 US ladies.
Imagin if Russian nationals was televised. I bet you would see a lot of talent on the radar. I hear the Russian men(with the exception of Plusy/Abt/kilmkin) are going really strong.

P.S. The length of my post was inspired by Rgirl

 

[EllynK]

Russian, American, and Japanese ladies

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also, maybe you should read up on the Russian Junior ladies. There are some promising ladies in there. Some of them are so good that they are entered in Senior and Junior Russian natoinals in the same year. We don't get to seem because it's not televised.[/quote]

Substitute "Japanese" for "Russian" and the same holds true.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>There is also and 18 year old Kristina Oblasova who is soooo talented but doesn't have the right team behind her. I believe Kristina won Junior worlds with Cohen and Hughes competing against her. [/quote]

Oblasova won Jr. Worlds in 2001. The American team that year was AP McDonough (2nd), Sara Wheat (10th), and Yebin Mok (withdrew after placing 10th in her qual round).

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Who is Yukina Ota? [/quote]

Ota is the 2003 Jr. World and Jr. Grand Prix champion. She's currently 16.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also, I hear that Japan's bright stars are in the age range of 12-14. is that true? [/quote]

There are some promising Japanese ladies in that age range who have drawn attention recently, yes.

There's also Miki Ando, 15, who won silver at this year's Jr. Worlds and bronze at the JGP final, where she landed the first official female quad.

Yukari Nakano, 17, 2002 Jr. World silver medalist (behind McDonough) and 2003 Four Continents bronze medalist (ahead of McDonough).

Akiko Suzuki, 17, 7th at 2001 Jr. Worlds and 8th at 2002 Four Continents. She's also won a few JGP medals.

And I trust that you haven't forgotten about Shizuka Arakawa and Yoshie Onda, who have been quite successful in the senior ranks.

 

[Ladskater]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

You have forgotten the German and Austrian ladies. At one time they were the great contenders. Look how many of them have invented moves that are now used by American and Russian skaters.

Ladskater

 

[Smiley0884]

Nelidina is NO "quad queen"

Exidra, I think you need to do some resarch before you call some one who has never landed a quad in competition "the quad queen"
If anyone is the quad queen, it's Miki Ando, the first woman ever to land a quad.
And no Vika should not have beaten Fumie at worlds, I don't know if you were there or not, but she was
S-L-O-W. The quality of her her spins and positons are't quite as good as fumie's, and her foot work is practically novice compared to fumie, who had not one but two difficult foot work sequences. BTW, Vika's 3/3 was two footed therefore it doesn't count. However I can definetly see a case for her being over Sasha in the SP, and LP.

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: the tide is turning

I actually think that Japan will soon replace Russia as co-dominator of ladies skating.

There were a lot of Japanese ladies medaling in recent Juniors, including the first ever woman to land a quad and the world champ. Japan almost swept the podium at Jr. worlds. Also, the current batch of seniors are still young. Fumie seems to be hitting a late bloomer stride and Shikuza and Yoshie still have their best ahead of them.

Russian ladies didn't do well at Juniors last season. None even made the GPF. As for seniors, they are all kinda long in the tooth so to speak. Will Elena be able to continue her comeback? Will Irina regain top form? Will Vicky ever get it together, especially now with another move/coaching change? Will the judges just get tired of seeing them after a decade of competing? I think it's 50/50 on all fronts.

As for the power jumpers: Nelanda is the only Russian I know of who even tries them (3x & quad) while I've lost track of all the Japanese ladies who are training them, not to mention all of the 3/3s they are pulling off. Take out the jumps and Quad Queen Ando still has decent presentation. Too bad the same can't be said for Ludmilla.

Jr. Worlds: Japan 1,2 &4 Russia 9 & 14
Jr. GPF: Japan 1,3 Russia 0

Sr. Worlds: Japan 3,8 & 11 russia 2,5 & 13
Sr. GPF Japan 4 &6 Russia 2 & 3

World ranking: Japan 5, 7, 8, 10, 13, 16 Russia 1, 3, 17, 21, 27, 40

Ages by next worlds: Irina 24, Elena 23, Fumie 22, Shikuza 22, Vicky 21, Yoshie 21, Ludmilla 19, Yukina 17, Miki 16, Mai 15

I think that once the current senior crop retires/faulters the Japanese have a much stronger back up team.

The Russian definately had a good run with Maria and Irina, but I fear it will end with them.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

Great thread and info on that link, Excidra. I'm not at all surprised. People tend to think back only about five years in terms of cultural or sports things, and the last five years is when Japan has been moving up. But over the long haul, Russia has been the Big Zamboni. Especially during the Soviet Era with the Russian Sports Machine, there might not have been great Russian ladies champions, but there were lots of Russian ladies on the podiums. The only thing that surprised me a bit was Switzerland at the bottom. But then Switzerland seems to turn out a few exceptional skaters every so often but in terms of a strong federation, I guess it just was never there. Very interesting stuff.

As for Vika, I hope she hasn't reached her peak, but she's been competing a long time. I first saw her compete live in '98 at the GWGs, where she actually won the bronze against skaters like Irina, who was in her slump, Maria B., and Angela. But I except for having a couple of consistent performances this season, I didn't see the improvement I'd hoped for--and I love a lot about Vika's skating. Also, the win over Sasha at COR was one of those controversial 5/4 splits where Sasha's scores from the judges were higher than Vika's but she lost on factored placements. No way of knowing if the random selection was a factor but the same controversy came up with I believe it was Irina's silver medal over I think it was Arakawa or Onda at NHK. True, Vika won COR, but at least IMO I don't think it's the best event to use to make a case that she beat the GPF winner. But as I said, I like Vika a lot and hope she hasn't peaked out, but unless she makes a big breakthrough this year or next, I'm afraid she will never do it.

Hey, any suprise that the ladies GP sweeps were US ladies at Skate America once and Russians at COR twice?:rollin:
Rgirl
PS Excidra, glad my behemouth posts "inspired" somebody:lol:

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

Oh so much to explain on this thread. I must be careful in my wording.

Excidra - The original topic did not include Japanese Ladies, but I just couldnot have left them out. IMO, the USA, Russia are now sharing the spotlight with Japan.

I have to admit, I was a bit off in my assessment of Maria B. She was a good competitor, and one I could not turn my back on.

I have been wanting to see the mysterious Oblosova for some time. Will she get out of the Russian Nats? because that is the only way I'll get to see her.

My calling Nelidina a Quad Queen was pure fascetiousness and I apologize to anyone I may have offended.

I agree we do not see but do want to see Russian Nats and Japanese Nats. Skate Channell come quickly!!

Ellenk - for some reason, I see more Japanese Ladies on TV than Russian Ladies.

Ladskate - I think the thread is about current skaters in which Russian and the USA are in the forefront.

Smiley. It was I who called Nelidina the Quad Queen as mentioned above.

TO Everyone - I do like and have liked for some time, Viktoria Volchkova. She has been placed in my special "Elegant" category along with Dorothy Hamil (the Queen of Elegance)
and Jennifer Robinson. I just have my feeling that VV will not be a podium contenter at Worlds.

BTW, Fumie, is a twice Bronze World Medalist. Not many skaters can make that claim?

Joe

 

[Excidra2001]

re:

Smiley0884,

I forgot to quote, quad queen. I know Neldina is trying the quad toe and I hear she is getting consistent with them. No need to sound rude.

Some might not agree with me but I think Russian ladies will always have a medal contender if not two at world and Olympics.
Rewind back to the 80s, Russia had two world and Olympic contenders in ladies. Their(Russia)slump year was 90-94 and then Russia produced two world and Olympic contenders(Slutskaya and Butryskaya) both becoming world champions and one taking home the first Olympic silver medal by a Russian lady(they are already breaking new grounds).
Now that Maria retired and Irina will probably retire in a year or so, Russia still has Elena Sokolova who has stated that she is going to be skating until 06 Olympics and Vika who is still ranked in the top 6 in the world.
Only time will till if Russia produces another Slutskaya/Butyrskaya, but with Elena/Vika waiting in the wings, I think they are going to do just fine.

 

[Emerald2000]

Re: re:

Irina and Elena do a fine job representing Russia, but to me the American girls are a much more talented field. Michelle, Sasha, Sarah (or not), Ap, Jenny, not to mention future talents Ye Bin and Bebe lang.....the only thing wrong with the Japanese ladies (with the exception of Fumie) is that I'm afraid they're going to jump themselved into an early retirement, a la Tara.

 

[sk8guy2k2]

Re: re:

Another talent comparison!?!? I'll stay out of this, but I couldn't help reading such lenghty detailed posts. Vika, I hope has not reached her peak. She is one of those skaters who are calm, and relaxed. Except that she moves like molasses. She has a delicate quality in her movement. But she's like a snail moving across the ice. Some people have talked about Fumie placing ahead of Vika at Worlds who had one more triple. The answer is SPEED. Fumie also had better spins, footwork, and spirals. As much as like Vika, I REALLY, REALLY, don't see her as a World medalist, maybe Euro Champ/Russian Champ.
The Ukranian ladies are basically Elena L. and Galina Mania-something. Elena Liashenko was sooooo undermarked at Worlds. She should have been 4th or 5th in the short. And her long wasn't that bad-five triples. She's gone to the GPF 3,4 times and has won Skate Canada in 1998. I don't see her as a World medalist either due to the fact that the judges lost interest in her. She could be a Euro medalist but not champ. She needs something like a finishing touch. Galina, well, I don't expect much from her next season. Who knows? She might pull off a good finish. (2002 Euros)
Japan and the USA are most likely to dominate the next generation of skating-enough said.

 

[Excidra2001]

Re: re:

Emeralde, If you haven't read my above post, i'll say it again. This is not a thread to compare the talent of Russian/American ladies.
If you think the American ladies are the most talented, that's fine. Others have a different opinion.

 

[nymkfan51]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

I always love to discuss the ladies ... they are my most favorite discipline.
I think it would be fairly safe to say that the Russian and American ladies will probably always have a top contender. I agree with whoever said though, that the Japanese women are here to stay, I think.
For me, I find it just about impossible to try and predict which of the youngsters will actually come through. There are so many promising ones, but who will be able to put it all together ... when it counts. I like when the competition is tough ... it makes things so interesting and exciting.
On a personal note, I sincerely hope that Vika will continue to improve. I know shes a little slow sometimes and isn't the most exciting of skaters, but there is just something I like about her. She is powerful, yet delicate ... and she seems like such a genuinely sweet person. I'd love to see her be a threat for the gold.
I'd love to see Michelle stay eligible and get that 3/3 ... and see Irina come back in top form ... WOW, what great competitions we would get to see!

Here, here for the ladies!!!

 

[Smiley0884]

Excidra

Sorry if I sounded rude. I will redirect my post to Joesitz then.

 

[Excidra2001]

Re: Excidra

Smiley,

Apology accepted. This is one of the reasons why I come to this board, because everyone has respect for one another.

Edited to add: Go ahead, blame Joe.

 

[berthes ghost]

Re: Excidra

"As much as like Vika, I REALLY, REALLY, don't see her as a World medalist, maybe Euro Champ/Russian Champ."

The Euro champ usually makes the world podium.

 

[rgirl181]

Re: Russian Vs American...ladies.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>This thread is not about which country is better then the other but just to compare the titles/medals....

www.isu.org/historical/fsgpmedals.html

P.S. This is not a thread to compare the talent of Russian/American ladies.[/quote] This are the main points in Excidra's original post starting this thread. I think the key is to check out the link, which shows the total number of figure skating medals won according to country and categorized both by total and then each discipline.

If we start on-topic, the sooner we can get off-topic
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz]

Re: Excidra

Smiley - I did address you in a previous post to say that it was I who called Nelidina the Queen of the Quad. As I said, I was being fascetious and apologized to anyone who was offended by that remark.

Nelidina is a work in progress. IMO, there is no discernible style yet.

Joe

 

[Emerald2000]

Re: Excidra

"Emeralde, If you haven't read my above post, I'll say it again. This is not a thread to compare the talent of Russia/American ladies."

Then perhaps you should change the TITLE of the thread. "Russia vs. America.....ladies." Maybe there wouldn't be as many misconceptions if you did. <img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/ohwell.gif ALT=":\">

And I wasn't forcing my opinion on anyone....if they want to disagree with me, good. So I'm apologizing in advance if I come across as opinionated in my posts. That's just the way I am.
--Emerald