Sonia Bianchetti's suggested changes

[Shayuki]

I really think the root of and the only problem that exists regarding tanos is the idea that any of them need required GOE. I'm sorry but isn't it much more reasonable to let the judges decide right then and there if a jump earns the GOE. That way if it becomes excessive in a judges mind they can have the freedom to say enough of that tano busines and award it as they see fit. I simply mean let the judge determine if it actually is helping to make the jump look better. In fact.....I don't even mind if a judge were to exercise such freedom to not award a single GOE point for the best tano ever and instead decided to award it in PCS. I could see how tanos could help or even hurt a program's overall feel. Wouldn't it seem most fair to allow it to be decided on a case by case basis and not by some committee meeting. Just my take though.....take it for what it is.

I don't think it's about making the jump look better but being more difficult... Like, someone might think that a toe loop looks much better than a lutz, but you wouldn't give that more score because of that, right? Double arm tano would take care of both factors in my opinion, but then it might be weird actually calling it "'tano" if the single arm variant doesn't do anything.

 

[gkelly]

I really think the root of and the only problem that exists regarding tanos is the idea that any of them need required GOE. I'm sorry but isn't it much more reasonable to let the judges decide right then and there if a jump earns the GOE.

Essentially that's what happens now.

Unlike features on leveled non-jump elements, there is no automatic "If you do this, you will get extra credit (higher level)" for jump variations.

"Varied position in the air / delay in rotation" is one possible bullet point toward a higher GOE. The guidelines recommend two bullet points for each increase in positive GOE.

So if you do a just-adequate jump (e.g., small, slow, slightly off balance, etc.) with one or both arms overhead and no other positive bullet points, you'll probably get 0 GOE. If you fall or step out of the jump or change edge on the takeoff or wobble on the landing, the arm variation will probably do nothing to protect you from the almost-automatic -3 or -2 or -1.

If you also have a difficult entry, for example, or if the jump also matches the music well, then a judge could decide that those two bullet points could take a mediocre jump up to +1 GOE. If the jump is better than mediocre on its own -- good height/distance, good flow, extended landing, and/or effortless throughout -- then the arm variation could make a difference between +1 and +2, or between +2 and +3 if most of those positive qualities apply.

How well the arm variation is executed would probably make a difference in whether or not a judge decides that it was enough to bump up the GOE another step or leave it where it would be otherwise. E.g., does it also contribute to the impression of "effortless throughout" or does it make the jump look more effortful?

If it's the "best tano ever" I would expect positive GOE, but whether +1 or +2 or +3 would depend on what else was good about the jump. Maybe good arm position plus other good qualities could make up for a flutz enough to keep the GOE at -1 rather than -2 despite an "e" call.

Then depending on quality and also on how it's used in the program, the judge could decide to reward it or penalize it in PCS.

I could easily see a judge deciding that the same well-performed arm variation on many jumps in the same program enhanced the difficulty of the jumps and bumped up their GOE one notch each but detracted from the variety in the program and should be penalized under the Choreography component.

Or, conversely, that a variety of thematic arm variations enhanced the choreography of the program but if they resulted in smaller or less controlled jumps they should not help and might hurt the GOEs for those jumps.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well people make it sound as if every single time someone does a tano the judges are held at gunpoint and forced to award a positive GOE.

 

[solani]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet. However, I really love 2 arm tano, I think that it's actually significantly more beautiful than just normal jumps. I really would enjoy it if single hand tano didn't give any bonus points, and only double arm tano did instead. And hey, it also is more difficult.

I think the overall problem is that sloppiness gets rewarded. As long as the skater hits a certain position it counts.

 

[Mathman]

Back in 6.0 days I liked to make up fictional programs in my mind,…

[n]A Hamlet freeskate[/b] by an elite man, starting with 4T+3T, 4S, flying camel, 3Lz+3Lo, then a contemplative section "spirals, spins, steps . . . working out the plot, interrogating the queen, finding guilt . . . deciding what to do about it . . ." then taking action with a sequence of 3A, 3F, 3Lo, 3S, 3T with only a couple of steps and hops between each of them.

Did you have in mind a particular male skater in the 6.0 days who could do this?

All I can say is, "Good night, Sweet Prince."

 

[gkelly]

Did you have in mind a particular male skater in the 6.0 days who could do this?

No single real person who had both the jumping skills and the footwork skills of my fictional skater. He was a little too good to be true in real life at the time, except he was a bad spinner and was maybe overambitious in what he was attempting.

But almost 15 years later, I bet Hanyu could skate that program, with better spins but maybe not the 3Lz+3Lo.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Well people make it sound as if every single time someone does a tano the judges are held at gunpoint and forced to award a positive GOE.

Maybe not gunpoint, but definitely skatepoint...

 

[lyndichee]

I mostly agree with you except maybe understanding those who persistently attempt and fail specific jumps. It maybe a point getting strategy at certain times by certain skaters under the competition circumstances. It may also be the determination of some skaters to do in competitions what they are able to do in practice. It may be also chances taken when the jump consistency is still questionable. There is never a guarantee a skater will land a particular jump at all times especially during competitions. They may have different standard as to when to start attempting a new jump at a competition. I remember Patrick Chan saying it's at 80% level for him. And then there are a few who actually rise to the occasion at competition succeeding at what is rather inconsistent at practice for them.

Sometimes it's hard to decide if we should admire skaters such as Dice Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, and Mao Asada, or to shake our heads at their stubbornness.

You can both admire and shake your head at their stubbornness. Going with the relevant skaters today, Mao still has the ability to land the jumps and going for 3A and 3F+3Lo doesn't completely destroy her medal chances if she doesn't get all the elements. Also, I think she has earned the right to take on these challenging layouts because she has had many wonderful and clean skates already. My specific example of Alaine is to highlight the fact that she's never had a clean free skate before (at least one UR or edge call) and it is clear when she attempts to get the title of first Canadian woman to land a 3A in competition, it destroys the rest of her free skate. I'm not saying that it should be reflected in scoring, but some of the judges need to give feedback and tell her that this isn't working and it ruins the entire program.

 

[lyndichee]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet. However, I really love 2 arm tano, I think that it's actually significantly more beautiful than just normal jumps. I really would enjoy it if single hand tano didn't give any bonus points, and only double arm tano did instead. And hey, it also is more difficult.

I do love the double arm above the head. Though I don't think one arm tano is ugly, it really depends on how they execute it. I like the way Liza does, arm is purposely bent over the head and fingers are positioned straight. With Evgenia, it just seems like she tossed it up there. Sometimes bent, sometimes not, most time not that enjoyable to look at (while I do quite admire her determination in landing those tough jumps).

 

[nolangoh]

I agree about the spins, especially cut the requirements of minimum revolution. It sometimes annoys me when skaters just spin without much or obvious variations, holding a position for a few seconds with no correspondence to the music just makes me...I can't even. And please cut those "creative" or "difficult" entry to a spin, it just does not make sense. Just do it with a nice flow.

I am still not sure about lowering the number of jumps, cuz it could be fixed with a proper choreography and program layout. But I think it is a good suggestion that replacing one jump element with another step sequence for men, and just add back the spirals for the ladies (please, give us back spirals!). Cuz I really think skaters don't have much time to do some expressive movements with only one steps and one 'choreo' sequence.

And about tano, oh dear lord Evgenia please do once or twice only, doing on or multiple jumps did not make the jumps more beautiful, given that your tano arm is already not a beautiful one. And the most beautiful tano is when one's arm is curved. IT is beautiful as a slight touch to a jump.

 

[nolangoh]

I agree too with the "demand-less" free skate, not that the skaters can do anything, but there are basic requirements like there has to be 7 jumps, 2 or 3 spins, steps and spirals etc. Just give the basics, and let the skaters fill in the blanks themselves.

 

[moriel]

I agree too with the "demand-less" free skate, not that the skaters can do anything, but there are basic requirements like there has to be 7 jumps, 2 or 3 spins, steps and spirals etc. Just give the basics, and let the skaters fill in the blanks themselves.

But then, how to compare it? Is there any difference between jumping the same jump 7 times, and doing all the different types of jumps? How should that be rewarded / punished?

Come on folks, keep in mind it is a sport and it is a competition.
All the stuff you want already happens, and is called exibitions / galas / ice shows.

 

[Mathman]

Regarding Tano, the single arm tano is generally ugly... at least I haven't seen anyone do it beautifully yet. .

… I don't think one arm tano is ugly, it really depends on how they execute it. I like the way Liza does, arm is purposely bent over the head and fingers are positioned straight.

This is what they are trying for.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...fdYeEFd-ezT-bYNBmK8Em8MEG4DzTJjwGmJj9WsJwr4qP

 

[daphenaxa]

I don't get it. At GPF we have the best men competition in the last decade with the 4 skaters leading who ally both amazing technical content (and not only jumps but also solid spins and steps!!) but also good choreography, interpretation, transitions etc. and now everyone rushes and wants to change everything. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[skateluvr]

i agree with it all. Great common sense. These changes will improve the programs that are simply doing a contorted spin for more points. She made so many great suggestion as she has for a few years now. I hope they listen to her and act on these changes. Go Sonia!:agree: