Women's Artistic Gymnastics

moonvine

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did you watch it? i did a few days ago and wow is it powerful and emotional. so eye opening.

Yes and it was horrifically painful and for some reason brought it all home for me in a way nothing else has (there is also an HBO documentary. I preferred this one). If it is even remotely possible that I became even more horrified by the whole affair, it is that the abuse is reaching all the way to low level club gymnasts who don't have any aspirations of an Olympic or World medal or even a college scholarship. They're just there for fun and physical fitness and apparently getting abused right along with the other athletes. And what they did to Maggie - I just didn't realize 4 years ago, but they didn't even try to be subtle, not putting a camera crew on her parents. And then she didn't even get a senior post season. Thanks NCAA.

I don't care if we never win another wc or Olympic medal. Most of these college coaches seem to be ok, and I've heard from so many gymnasts they got their love of the sport back from moving to college gymnastics. Maybe we need to put Jordyn Wieber and Dana Duckworth and Courtney Kupets in charge of USA Gymnastics. Because what's going on is so not ok on any level. I have a hard time even watching elite gymnastics now. I just can't even. Fire anyone who hasn't already fired and put them all in jail.
 

macy

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Yes and it was horrifically painful and for some reason brought it all home for me in a way nothing else has (there is also an HBO documentary. I preferred this one). If it is even remotely possible that I became even more horrified by the whole affair, it is that the abuse is reaching all the way to low level club gymnasts who don't have any aspirations of an Olympic or World medal or even a college scholarship. They're just there for fun and physical fitness and apparently getting abused right along with the other athletes. And what they did to Maggie - I just didn't realize 4 years ago, but they didn't even try to be subtle, not putting a camera crew on her parents. And then she didn't even get a senior post season. Thanks NCAA.

I don't care if we never win another wc or Olympic medal. Most of these college coaches seem to be ok, and I've heard from so many gymnasts they got their love of the sport back from moving to college gymnastics. Maybe we need to put Jordyn Wieber and Dana Duckworth and Courtney Kupets in charge of USA Gymnastics. Because what's going on is so not ok on any level. I have a hard time even watching elite gymnastics now. I just can't even. Fire anyone who hasn't already fired and put them all in jail.

i honestly think Aly Raisman should try to get into a higher up position (if not CEO) of USAG. but i don't think they'd ever let her or any abused athletes get near a spot in the org.

also, there was a photo going around a few days ago on instagram of Simone and Maggie with a quote from Simone saying "it broke my heart not hearing her name on the team because everybody knew she earned that spot. even Martha knew she belonged on the team. Martha cried when she announced the team. i think somebody had power over Martha when she selected that team. there were deals made under the table."

i have absolutely no doubt in my mind that was the case. Maggie wasn't as prominent or successful as Aly Raisman who also reported abuse in 2015 and they couldn't keep Aly off the team without it being suspicious, so they kicked Maggie because it wouldn't be obvious it was unfair. and then her collegiate career ended unfairly because of covid...she deserved so much more than that.
 

Blades of Passion

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The misrepresentation Athlete A made about Maggie and the Olympic team selection is quite annoying, the doc undermines itself by trying to push that wrong angle, instead of going deeper into other stories. The correct top 8 team for the Olympics was chosen, Maggie did not bring anything to the table in terms of medal capability. Every other girl who was chosen brought more scoring potential to the team event and was top 3 on an individual event, whereas Maggie had no particular strength on a specific apparatus.

The fact is she got injured at a very unfortunate time and wasn’t able to regain her full form, nor did it seem she would be able to in time for the Olympics. Her injury was to a knee, which does not bode well at all when your best events are vault and floor. She was the 9th best gymnast for the team and only 8 spots were available. Very sad for her personally, but it’s common in the sport, there are better gymnasts than Maggie who never made it to the Olympics because of unlucky timing.
 

MissBeeFarm

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I don't care if we never win another wc or Olympic medal. Most of these college coaches seem to be ok, and I've heard from so many gymnasts they got their love of the sport back from moving to college gymnastics. Maybe we need to put Jordyn Wieber and Dana Duckworth and Courtney Kupets in charge of USA Gymnastics. Because what's going on is so not ok on any level. I have a hard time even watching elite gymnastics now. I just can't even. Fire anyone who hasn't already fired and put them all in jail.

The vast majority of Nassar's abuse happened at MSU -- especially in the early days. It was reported there as early as 1997, but Kathie Klages, one of those college coaches you praise, dismissed it year after year after year. Recently gymnasts have also been leaving the Nebraska team en masse due to the abuse happening there. At Florida many racist incidents have come to light. The idea that college gymnastics is so much better and healthier than elite is generalisation that doesn't hold up in reality.
 

Smith16

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I don't know if this is appropriate for this thread as it involves Rhythmic gymnastics but Natalia Godunko who was a Ukrainian Rhythmic gymnast (who competed alongside Anna Bessonva) just made a youtube video with English subs talking about her experience (and others) being on the Ukrainian national team and the abusive environment they had to endure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmcgLOqYpy0&feature=youtu.be
 

Mathman

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Former U.S. gymnast Dominique Dawes is opening a "gymnastics and Ninja Warrior" training center in the Washington, D.C. area. According to this article she was motivated by the "unhealthy training environment" in competitive gymnastics generally. (Aspiring gymnasts can start in "mommy and me" exercises at nine months old, but you have to be four to be a Ninja. :) )

https://wtop.com/montgomery-county/...gomery-co-academy-focused-on-healthy-culture/

"Awesome Dawesome," by the way, served with Michelle Kwan on the national President's Council for Sports and Fitness during the Obama administration. Here they are (with Tv man Al Roker) at the White House Easter Egg rolling event, 2012.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url...ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCKC0jIaZ7OoCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAp

Illinois Senetor Barak Obama could have used Michelle's help with daughter Malia in 2007. ;)

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShFLy2ykrJ0TTS9COcvF_P7Ofc2SN8TvP74w&usqp=CAU
 
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macy

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She has been reluctant to admit it thus far, but Chellsie Memmel FINALLY admitted she is coming back to elite!!! the announcement is at the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EklPPwX7Ti4

news outlets have picked it up and the Olympic Channel has already interviewed her. it sounds like with age, she learned what her body needs for training and nutrition and has a healthier mindset than before and knows her limits. she wants to send a message that gymnastics is for everyone at any age, and its ok to start late, never stop, or take a break and come back and wants to end the stigma that you should retire at a certain age.

https://www.olympicchannel.com/en/video/detail/chellsie-memmel-announces-comeback-to-gymnastics/
 

yume

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Does gymnasts who weren't eligible for Tokyo 2020 but are eligible for Tokyo 2021 can compete for spots in the big feds? I saw a post on olympic channel IG saying that the JWC in ladies who weren't eligible for 2020 can now try to go to olympics in 2021. If that's the case for every fed, i think it's really unfair for those who trained 4 years for it and now have less chances to go since more (and younger) competitors can fight for a place in the team.
 

macy

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Does gymnasts who weren't eligible for Tokyo 2020 but are eligible for Tokyo 2021 can compete for spots in the big feds? I saw a post on olympic channel IG saying that the JWC in ladies who weren't eligible for 2020 can now try to go to olympics in 2021. If that's the case for every fed, i think it's really unfair for those who trained 4 years for it and now have less chances to go since more (and younger) competitors can fight for a place in the team.

yes, i believe this is the case. although i do agree it throws a bit of a wrench into things for athletes who were already age eligible, but it still does make sense to me to let those who are eligible next year to try and earn a ticket. they will be of age after all.
 

macy

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recently i've been going back to watch all womens events from the last few olympic games, most recently qualifications from 2012 where Jordyn Wieber was eliminated from the all around. going into the competition she was the reigning world all around champion and was seen as one of the favorites alongside Gabby Douglas to make the final, but Aly Raisman who had little buzz around her snuck in.

after the event, Tim Dagget and Bela Karolyi both agreed the 2 per country rule is wrong, Jordyn was robbed and that all gymnasts who make the top 24 in qualifications should advance to the final (similar to arguments in skating with the 3 max per country rule), and that she was underscored.

what are your opinions? what problems or situations would arise if there were no limit in gymnastics? was Jordyn really underscored compared to Gabby and Aly?
 

MissBeeFarm

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after the event, Tim Dagget and Bela Karolyi both agreed the 2 per country rule is wrong, Jordyn was robbed and that all gymnasts who make the top 24 in qualifications should advance to the final (similar to arguments in skating with the 3 max per country rule), and that she was underscored.

This will never not be hilarious since the US was heavily in favour of 2PC when it was first introduced, because they were happy to get a share of medals and no more Romanian medal sweeps. The hypocrisy is off the charts...

what are your opinions? what problems or situations would arise if there were no limit in gymnastics? was Jordyn really underscored compared to Gabby and Aly?

I would love to see 3PC and 36 gymnasts come back for AA competitions. In EFs I'm totally fine with 2PC, since there are only 8 spots and this guarantees at least 2 spots going to non-big 3-countries, which tend to be underscored, and would have a very hard time making finals otherwise.

Jordyn wasn't underscored. For the first time that year she was scored correctly. The US judges did her no favour by crediting all those wonky connections at domestic competitions. They sent out the message that the connections were fine and she didn't need to work on them. I feel sorry for Jordyn because she's such a wonderful person and gymnast, and the biggest moment of her life was destroyed by the adults in charge making all the wrong decisions for her.
 

TontoK

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This will never not be hilarious since the US was heavily in favour of 2PC when it was first introduced, because they were happy to get a share of medals and no more Romanian medal sweeps. The hypocrisy is off the charts...



I would love to see 3PC and 36 gymnasts come back for AA competitions. In EFs I'm totally fine with 2PC, since there are only 8 spots and this guarantees at least 2 spots going to non-big 3-countries, which tend to be underscored, and would have a very hard time making finals otherwise.

Jordyn wasn't underscored. For the first time that year she was scored correctly. The US judges did her no favour by crediting all those wonky connections at domestic competitions. They sent out the message that the connections were fine and she didn't need to work on them. I feel sorry for Jordyn because she's such a wonderful person and gymnast, and the biggest moment of her life was destroyed by the adults in charge making all the wrong decisions for her.

In the era of a four-person team, it's going to be really hard for any country to qualify more than 2 AA's... don't you think?

I don't dislike Jordyn as an athlete, and I don't know her as a person. But a lot of this drama was caused by NBC hype leading into the Olympics. That hype wasn't totally basedless, mind you, she was defending World Champ, but an awful lot can happen in gynmastics in a year's time, and it happened to her. She was surpassed by two countrywomen.
 

MissBeeFarm

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In the era of a four-person team, it's going to be really hard for any country to qualify more than 2 AA's... don't you think?

On the contrary: Despite it only being four gymnasts on the team, all four are allowed to compete AA. So the number of AA gymnasts in quals is going to be the same as before, where there were 5 team members and four scores counting. Actually, with the extra individual spots some teams will have six instead of four AA gymnasts, so the chances of qualifying more than 2 to the AA final are actually a lot higher than before.

That being said: it's going back to five members by 2024 anyway. There's no "era of four-person teams"
 

TontoK

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On the contrary: Despite it only being four gymnasts on the team, all four are allowed to compete AA. So the number of AA gymnasts in quals is going to be the same as before, where there were 5 team members and four scores counting. Actually, with the extra individual spots some teams will have six instead of four AA gymnasts, so the chances of qualifying more than 2 to the AA final are actually a lot higher than before.

That being said: it's going back to five members by 2024 anyway. There's no "era of four-person teams"

I'm going to think this over. If what you're saying is true, then it's not going to play out like I had thought. In my mind, a four-person USA team would have two AA's and a bars/beam specialist and a floor/vault specialist, setting up for 3 up/3 count finals. It's not like a power team like USA would have trouble qualifying for the finals - so they'd be building their team for max 3 count score in each discipline.

I hadn't imagined a bars/beam specialist would score high enough on vault/floor to qualify for AA final... but who knows? Could happen.
 

MissBeeFarm

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I'm going to think this over. If what you're saying is true, then it's not going to play out like I had thought. In my mind, a four-person USA team would have two AA's and a bars/beam specialist and a floor/vault specialist, setting up for 3 up/3 count finals. It's not like a power team like USA would have trouble qualifying for the finals - so they'd be building their team for max 3 count score in each discipline.

I hadn't imagined a bars/beam specialist would score high enough on vault/floor to qualify for AA final... but who knows? Could happen.

The Tokyo Teams are all going to consist of four AA gymnasts. I mean there's a reason all those specialists like Becky Downie are suddenly training AA again after not doing so in decades. Quals is going to be 4-4-3, so the risk of taking specialists is just too high in the case of injuries. Didn't the current USAG guy in charge of the women's team even say that the US team will be the top 4 AA gymnasts from Trials? As for those getting individual spots scoring high enough in the AA to qualify for the final: Most will have trouble doing so (or not even do AA), but I bet all my savings that every single US gymnast getting an individual spot will score high enough to qualify for the AA final. Jade Carey, who as that one spot to her name already, certainly will with her improved bars and beam.
 

macy

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I would love to see 3PC and 36 gymnasts come back for AA competitions. In EFs I'm totally fine with 2PC, since there are only 8 spots and this guarantees at least 2 spots going to non-big 3-countries, which tend to be underscored, and would have a very hard time making finals otherwise.

i really like this idea. was the main reason it was changed to 2PC was to prevent podium sweeps? do you know if it used to be 3PC for the all around, and when it changed?
 

MissBeeFarm

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i really like this idea. was the main reason it was changed to 2PC was to prevent podium sweeps? do you know if it used to be 3PC for the all around, and when it changed?

The main reason was the dominance of the big teams which resulted in podium sweeps sometimes, the last famous one being the 2000 Olympic AA podium with three Romanians (before Raducan was disqualified). It used to be 3PC with 36 AA finalists up until 2001 Worlds. 2002 Worlds had no AA competition (don't ask me why...). 2003 Worlds was the first major Championship with 2PC and 24 finalists in the AA.

Another reason was to make the competiton shorter, because long competitions didn't do well on TV. So they cut the field down to 24 gymnasts. With a smaller field it would have been even easier for the big nations to dominate, so they had to reduce the gymnasts per nation to two.
 

macy

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does anyone have much knowledge of the Chinese women and their training methods? in my recent binge watching of past events, i can't help but wonder why the Chinese have such a different physique than every other country. is this part of their genetics or due to their nutrition and training, or both? they have such a lightness on beam and bars, but they are not "muscular" gymnasts and have little to no power and strength on the other 2 events. it's almost worrisome how some of their 18 or 19 year old gymnasts look like they are barely 13...

no bashing intended, i am just interested to know why this is.
 

MissBeeFarm

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does anyone have much knowledge of the Chinese women and their training methods? in my recent binge watching of past events, i can't help but wonder why the Chinese have such a different physique than every other country. is this part of their genetics or due to their nutrition and training, or both? they have such a lightness on beam and bars, but they are not "muscular" gymnasts and have little to no power and strength on the other 2 events. it's almost worrisome how some of their 18 or 19 year old gymnasts look like they are barely 13...

no bashing intended, i am just interested to know why this is.


They used to pre-pick their gymnasts based on body type, and very much preferred the very lean physique. So very often the more muscular gymnasts never even made it to the National Team, regardless of talent. Cheng Fei was probably the one big exception, but even she was pretty tiny compared to other power gymnasts from other nations.

It seems there's more emphasis on strength training these days, though, which is very much needed. E.g. Ou Yushan was looking very powerful at the Test Event a few days ago and had a huuuge Silivas on floor.

Nutrition is also an issue. Take Shang Chunsong for example. She grew up very poor and didn't have enough to eat for most of her life before making the Chinese Team. The years of malnurishment explain why she's so very tiny and skinny. Others have experienced the same.

As for training methods: Have you seen All Around from the Olympic Channel following Morgan Hurd, Angelina Melnikova and Chen Yile? Wang Qunce is regularly abusing his gymnasts in a lot of ways. Imagine what he does behind the scenes if they don't care about showing some of his abuse on camera. His strict weight control regime is one of those things and doesn't help with building muscle in any way. Here's a reddit thread with some translations from stuff he did (if you can stomach it): https://www.reddit.com/r/Gymnastics...xpose_on_wang_qunce_on_the_chinese_gymternet/
 

macy

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They used to pre-pick their gymnasts based on body type, and very much preferred the very lean physique. So very often the more muscular gymnasts never even made it to the National Team, regardless of talent. Cheng Fei was probably the one big exception, but even she was pretty tiny compared to other power gymnasts from other nations.

It seems there's more emphasis on strength training these days, though, which is very much needed. E.g. Ou Yushan was looking very powerful at the Test Event a few days ago and had a huuuge Silivas on floor.

Nutrition is also an issue. Take Shang Chunsong for example. She grew up very poor and didn't have enough to eat for most of her life before making the Chinese Team. The years of malnurishment explain why she's so very tiny and skinny. Others have experienced the same.

As for training methods: Have you seen All Around from the Olympic Channel following Morgan Hurd, Angelina Melnikova and Chen Yile? Wang Qunce is regularly abusing his gymnasts in a lot of ways. Imagine what he does behind the scenes if they don't care about showing some of his abuse on camera. His strict weight control regime is one of those things and doesn't help with building muscle in any way. Here's a reddit thread with some translations from stuff he did (if you can stomach it): https://www.reddit.com/r/Gymnastics...xpose_on_wang_qunce_on_the_chinese_gymternet/

oh wow that is horrible...i hope things change for the better now that Qiao Liang is back in China. i'm kind of getting the impression this kind of coaching is more normalized there than in places like the US? especially with the things about NiNi and her mother circulating around...is it taken seriously in China? can abusers be punished?

i have watched a couple episodes of All Around, i'll have to go back and watch again...if her coach is abusing her on camera, can something be done? or was done already? thats crazy he would have the audacity to do that on camera.

it is really sad they put so much emphasis on weight and body type...these girls will have to deal with effects of that the rest of their lives. why wouldn't they put ability/talent/strength on all 4 events before physique? you would think they would take notes from countries like the US or Russia who turn out great all arounders year after year. China seems to be ok with being mostly good on bars and beam and suffer on vault and floor...they could have won many more medals if their gymnasts were stronger in all events.
 
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