Wait a minute! A -2GOE for Lipinski's Lutz, a -1GOE for her Axel. A +1GOE for Michelle's Lutz. And we have Lipinski ahead for 1.9 to max 2.3 points.
Would Lipinski have won Nagano under CoP?
- Thread starter Fossi
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Wait a minute! A -2GOE for Lipinski's Lutz, a -1GOE for her Axel. A +1GOE for Michelle's Lutz. And we have Lipinski ahead for 1.9 to max 2.3 points.
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- Mar 30, 2006
Tomorrow I'll do a thing. I'll rewatch the programs. It's a long time that I don't watch the competition
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- Jul 11, 2003
My turn off of Tara was her basic skating. It was very poor. Look at that tape of the 98 Olys and watch Tara's footwork by shushing left to right down the ice on two feet, and check out that diaganol spiral on the flat. No edge whatsoever. When going from rollers to ice, the tricks are easy, the basics are difficult.
The plus for Tara was her 'joy in skating' which she bubble-gummed throughout the performance giggling from start to finish. Passion? You tell me.
Cop or no Cop, she couldn't do basics, but she had that little girl dahling look which will make a lot of people happy.
Joe
The plus for Tara was her 'joy in skating' which she bubble-gummed throughout the performance giggling from start to finish. Passion? You tell me.
Cop or no Cop, she couldn't do basics, but she had that little girl dahling look which will make a lot of people happy.
Joe
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- Jul 11, 2003
I forgot... what will she be remembered for? It will be that she won over Kwan. It will not be for winning an Olympics.
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- Mar 30, 2006
There's no reason at all for a deduction to Lipinski's Axle. She got the rotations and landed it perfectly. It's not like Kwan's Axle is very high either.
I don't think a Flutz merits a negative GOE either unless there is a bobble on the landing; it just shouldn't get a positive GOE. A Flutz is still harder to do than a Flip and deserves the 6 points as compared to 5.5 for a Flip.
Show me one point in her program where she actually raises her hand to her mouth and giggles. Her great amount of energy and, yes, JOY was in fact a perfect match to the music she was skating to. She also held all of her moves out beautifully and had great extension. Under CoP she would deserve very high marks for the 'Presentation', 'Choreography' and 'Interpretation' components. Tara never skated better before or after the Olympics; it was just a magical time for her.
~Z
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- Jul 11, 2003
Disagree Z. Tara came into beautiful skating via Kurt Browning in SOA at least in the first two years. It was tough for her to keep up with the older gals and she could never look sexy but her edges improved and she could do a spiral on the curve. That to me was what she should have had in competition.
Joe
Joe
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- Mar 30, 2006
To the casual skating fan, sure.
But I will always remember her Olympic programs vividly. Her long program especially was pure inspiration. Who cares if her basic skating skills weren't the best in the world, what she did was gorgeous and moving. You can have the most amazing edge quality in the world and still be a boring skater.
~Z
Nope, a flutz merits a negative GOE, because the skater cheats when doing that. And a Flutz is just a Flip, it isn't a different jump. At least coaches and skating experts say that. Italian coach Marina d'Agata says that. So if a skater does two (f)lutzes and two flips, he/she violates two times the Zayak rule by doing four flips.
If you look at COP rules you'll see that negative GOE for wrong edges goes from -1 to -3 depeding on severity. These rules aren't applied by some judges though.
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- Mar 30, 2006
Umm...it's a Flip that requires the skater to enter it from a backward glide and at least start on a different edge than an inside. That makes it harder.
Show me one top-level skater who did a Flutz and got it changed to a Flip when the scores came up. This is not the case.
Try "almost EVERY judge". -3 depending on severity? I mean, lol, that's just retarded. Is the skater, like, bobbling back and forth between outside and inside edges across the entire rink before doing their Lutz to get that kind of penalty (although that would actually be very hard)? Must be...
~Z
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- Dec 16, 2006
So based on what you're saying, a skater should get positive points for flutzing, because it's a flip with a more difficult entrance?! (kinda like those axels that Krisztina Czako used to do from a lutz entrance, three turn, double axel)
The more I think about it, the more I think that neither skater would've won the OGM if Irina had not messed up her short and messed up the flip if the COP had been present then. Her programs were already Bielmannized way back then, and Irina's jumps are just bigger than most people's.
But, no matter what, I don't think the girls in Torino held a candle to both Tara and Michelle in '98. Finest 1-2-3 performance in the Olympics to date (Chen Lu's comeback rocked, too--that Olympics, even if my favourite didn't win, still left me with a good feeling). Let's hope the newbs can meet or beat it in Vancouver.
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- Mar 30, 2006
No...I'm saying it should be worth 6 points, just as it is right now. The flip is worth 5.5 points. A Lutz done from a solid outside edge with a solid landing should get a +1 GOE.
~Z
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- Mar 28, 2005
Sorry but Tara would not have gotten -2 GOE total for her triple lutz. Lots of girls flutz today and get nowhere near that low. You have to step out of a jump or land it squarely on two foot to get that low. She would probably get around a 0for it. Her double axel would not have gotten -GOE either, it might also have gotten a 0, but not -GOE. How do you know Kwan would have gotten a full 1 point in GOE for her triple lutzes. Did she her one time under COP on her clean triple lutzes at the 2005 Worlds? No.
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- Mar 30, 2006
I usually sorta hate you but that was really cool, Slutskies. 
~Z
~Z
You clearly didn't read COP rules. It is written that based on severity of the wrong edge a skater should receive from -1 to - 3GOE. If this is not completely applied, it is not my fault. A flutz doesn't exist, because it is a flip. And that is not my opinion, but what coaches and skating experts are saying.
With your logic, why don't we just eliminate the Lutz as a jump? The peculiarity of this jump (what makes it different from the flip) it is the outside edge. If a skater jump from the inside edge he/she isn't doing a Lutz. So, IMO, a -3GOE or a violation of Zayak rule should be applied.
Slutskayafan, I know that a lot of skaters aren't really penalyzed for flutzing. It is that fair to Julia Sebestyen, Vikka, Sokolova, Shizuka and other skaters who do real Lutzes? And we are talking about the 3Lutz that Kwan did at the 1998 Olympics, not at the 2005 Worlds!!! It is clear that I don't know which GOE would have Michelle received. I'm assuming, as other people are doing in this thread. With your logic you could not even say that Tara would not have received a -GOE for her axel and lutz.
With your logic, why don't we just eliminate the Lutz as a jump? The peculiarity of this jump (what makes it different from the flip) it is the outside edge. If a skater jump from the inside edge he/she isn't doing a Lutz. So, IMO, a -3GOE or a violation of Zayak rule should be applied.
Slutskayafan, I know that a lot of skaters aren't really penalyzed for flutzing. It is that fair to Julia Sebestyen, Vikka, Sokolova, Shizuka and other skaters who do real Lutzes? And we are talking about the 3Lutz that Kwan did at the 1998 Olympics, not at the 2005 Worlds!!! It is clear that I don't know which GOE would have Michelle received. I'm assuming, as other people are doing in this thread. With your logic you could not even say that Tara would not have received a -GOE for her axel and lutz.
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- Feb 5, 2004
The standard of a jump receiving 0 in GOE is that it is satisfactory. Whether or not the jump has taken off from the edge it should (for the lutz a back outside edge) is extremely important, if the skaters takes off from an inside edge i fail to see how the jump can be "satisfactory". A positive GOE should only be given where the criteria for +GOE are met.
the whole problem with scoring Lipinki and Kwan's Nagano performances is that there aren't enough truly unbiased enough to not hammer the one they don't want to win with -GOEs and prop their fave with +GOES then use the PCS to get them where they want (hmmmm sounds like a normal day in teh office for a judge no?!
)End of the day the two systems were completely different. The two skaters had extremely good 6.0 programs. The requirements for step sequences and spins were not in plkace then so how can a meaningful COP score be given for them? At the time Michelle had a final jumping pass which would not be counted under CoP - that would certainly not have been the case had the rules been in place then. I also seriously doubt Tara would have done the 3T/half loop/3Sal had the sequence penalty been in place then either. A 3Sal/3Toe would have done better for her.
One thing is certain - they competed against each other in Nagano under 6.0. The winner was Tara. Whether one agrees or not is your prerogative. LEt's not try and claim that things would have been different or the same using another scoring system that neither skater had in mind when performing.
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
A flutz is not an official jump in the ISU. Over and Out.
It is tolerated, especially for American skaters, who attempt a lutz.
The judges are then expected to judge the flutz as if it were a legitimate jump, i.e., how wide a distance between the legs at take off. You figure that one.
I'm ok with the flutz if they just automatically give it a minus 3 full points regardless of the distance between the legs at take off.
Joe
It is tolerated, especially for American skaters, who attempt a lutz.
The judges are then expected to judge the flutz as if it were a legitimate jump, i.e., how wide a distance between the legs at take off. You figure that one.
I'm ok with the flutz if they just automatically give it a minus 3 full points regardless of the distance between the legs at take off.
Joe
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- Mar 30, 2006
I clearly don't fully agree with the COP rules and use them as a guide, not a Bible?
Yes, it is. They are likely to get a positive GOE bonus from me and in addition to that, I would be more lenient about applying a negative GOE for their landing if something small went wrong. However, for someone like Sasha who always Flutzes, I would never give her a GOE bonus for that jump and would always apply a negative GOE for any kind of bobble on the landing. For example, in her long program at 2006 Worlds, her Lutz had a small swing-around on the landing. For someone that gets a lot of height on the jump and/or holds the outside edge all the way before going in, I wouldn't deduct them. For Sasha, that's a -1 GOE to the jump from me.
~Z
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- Feb 5, 2004
Trouble is that your rules aren't the ones being applied to figures skating, its the COPthat is applied.
Ant
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- Mar 30, 2006
Once again, show me a skater who received -1 or more off on the GOE of a clean Flutz from every single judge on the panel (or had the jump changed to a Flip by the tech caller). Obviously lots of people agree. Okay? Okay.
~Z
~Z
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