2018 US Championships Sr. Ladies FS

[frida80]

There was huge backlash over Ashley being chosen over Mirai by the general public. Plenty of accusations involving race/racism, even people in my college who knew less than nothing about FS were talking about it. It was headlining newspapers, etc. Pull that with Ashley (again) and another asian skater (again) and it will not be pretty. PR disaster going into the Olympics (in ASIA).

You’re right! An Olympics in Asia! I didn’t even think about that! I cannot see a good scenario coming from this if they chose Ashley.

 

[jaylee]

I watched the last two groups live. Enjoyed it, but overall the competition paled in comparison to Boston 2014, which I also attended.

- Honorable mention: Starr Andrews absolutely sparkled and gave an emotional, committed performance. I could tell that she really connected with her music. I think she's a talented singer and I think skating to her own version was gutsy and savvy -- but I have to say that in the arena, it sometimes sounded like a karaoke version. It was a bit strange when it switched to the Whitney Houston version. She got a huge standing ovation -- good for her for her clean performance.
- Mariah Bell - solid skate and I loved her guts, but her FS just wasn't the right vehicle. Really silly mistake on the 2A that ultimately didn't make a big difference.
- Ashley Wagner - I think the program has potential but there were a few moments where I found myself wondering if Ashley had forgotten or was ignoring her choreography. She appeared focused on her jumps and she did pay some attention to the performance, but overall, I wasn't greatly impressed by the technical or performance aspect. I don't agree with her placing higher in the FS than Karen Chen. She didn't have a meltdown and the audience was super happy about that, but I don't think she was wuzrubbed at all.
- Mirai Nagasu - had surprisingly good speed. Good for her for landing all her jumps. That 3A was very impressive live and she did land it perfectly in the warm-up. She didn't give up on the rest of the program even after the initial 3A wasn't perfect. Unfortunately, I did not care for the program at all. I found the choreography to be minimal and what was there barely reflected the music. The audience was really, really, really pulling for her -- but Mirai won't have that support in Korea. It was a great accomplishment for Mirai personally and I'm glad for her, but in terms of performance and program, I was left wanting much, much more.
- Angela Wang - she checked all the boxes for me in terms of musicality and interpretation...but something was still missing? Something intangible. Angela has a tough time connecting with audiences -- she doesn't project quite enough? Her mostly clean performance didn't get the reaction that I thought it should have.
- Karen Chen - she was committed to her choreography, performed to the music, projected to the audience, and gave a great performance overall. It wasn't perfect but her ceiling is higher than anyone else's. Nice edges and speed, and I'd have her first in PCS over all of the other ladies. Her lutzes are huge! Her spins were slower than usual and this performance wasn't her personal best, but she absolutely deserved to be on the podium, top 3, and she had better be going to Pyeongchang. For me, there is no question that Karen deserved to be ahead of Ashley Wagner and it shouldn't even have been that close.
- Bradie Tennell - nice jumps and it was refreshing to have a US lady who could nail all their jumps but I don't agree with her GOE and her PCS was absurd -- the choreography was awkwardly executed -- and some moments were just jarring, like the besti squat. :noshake: This performance doesn't compare to Gracie Gold's at 2014 US Nationals AT ALL (yes, even with Gracie's fall -- I stood for Gracie and it was an amazing performance) and I'd rank it behind Polina Edmund's 2014 performance there as well. She got a big standing O but the reaction to her score was not as unanimous -- I think some expected Mirai to win.

 

[PyeongChang2018]

That's not the case in gymnastics anymore. Simone Biles was 19 when she won the Olympics, and she had won the previous 3 world championships. The average age of the US women's team was 19.2 in 2016. Laurie Hernandez was the only 16-year-old on the team. None of the individual 2016 Olympic champions were 16. I don't want to assume anything, but you sound like a once every 4 years gymnastics fan.

Please tell me you're on IGF or WWGym.

 

[frida80]

I just want to say how sad it is that all 5 of the top US finishers would have struggled mightily to just make the junior grand prix final =/

I think Bradie would’ve qualified for it. She would’ve gotten two silvers at least. But in terms of placement at the GPF, 6th. Maybe 5th if they were being nice.

 

[readernick]

Yeah. A lot of Ashley's URs were not called. I could see them in real-time, but please feel free to post slo-mo or screen shots here to prove me wrong. Meanwhile it is only Karen's first 3T I saw a UR issue with, the 3S in 2A-3S was borderline and the solo 3S downgraded to 2S was quite harsh...

Karen gets called for under-rotations all the time in international competition. The ice-network commentators saw those under-rotations even before they were called. They were there. Tech caller was a bit lenient on Mirai but I don't think he was on other skaters. Karen doesn't just perform like this. She practices like this. She is so talented. She needs to improve before it is too late.

 

[TontoK]

The situation is totally different. Polina was a way better skater than Bradie, but at that time, Gracie who had a great potential was around. I wonder if Gracie were still in competition, Bradie could be suddenly held up. However, given the scores and placement at Nationals, USFSA seems to change the attitude towards consistent skaters with meh SS and package.

The other thing that is different is that then Ashley was a legit medal threat. She'd scored and placed pretty well over the preceding season. When USFSA picked Ashley for Sochi, they were preserving a medal opportunity.

Throwing no shade to her fans, but nobody really thinks Ashley is a medal contender this time. The argument is over which of two girls should be sent, when Top 10 would be the highest reasonable result for either one of them?

 

[skatesofgold]

They should just pick the top 3. If this was swimming, it wouldn't be up for debate. Well, maybe the relays would be, but they like to make those decisions at the last minute based on whoever's hot at the Olympics. Figure skating doesn't have relays.

 

[NAOTMAA]

The international judges never took to Polina. I think it will be the same with Bradie. She will have to skate perfect every time to get decent PCS, something no skater can do--not even Evgenia.

How do you know they never took to Polina? Polina never had a chance to fully prove herself. She was young and not fully developed skating wise when she broke through and when she started to she got hurt. Plus she wasn't exactly the most consistent at all her competitions when she was healthy either. Also what marks do you expect the far distant 3rd ranked US skater to get? She was top 10 at her first major international competition (the Olympics) and twice top 10 at worlds. That's pretty amazing considering and on par with the other US ladies

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Oh, I don’t suggest you should. I’m suggesting I would. And the international judges do.

There’s that word again.

Snark not directed at you.

Well it’s hard for me to ignore that when Ashley was getting those scores internationally she was performing much better. On the Real...I’ve seen her perform much stronger than this and I’m not talking exclusively about the TES.

I see nothing wrong with the podium in the least based on my interpretation of the performances. Well...Mariah would look good with that Pewter but whatevs....she’ll get back on that podium in Detroit and I’m gonna be there throwing guinea pig stuffed animals on the ice. :yes:

 

[gstrain]

Mirai and Bradie are on the team. The clearly had the two best technical performances by a significant margin. Bradie's PCS was inflated, and overall I personally preferred Mirai but there is no way the federation doesn't pick both of them for the Olympics. Bradie has a long way to go as a performer, but she's an excellent technical skater, and her jumps are remarkably solid. She skated last, had to deliver, and her jumps were excellent.

The only question is if they pick Karen over Ashley. I think they will. If they wanted to prop Ashley up they would have done it with PCS during the competition which they didn't.. So it's hard to see them giving Ashley an Olympic spot from fourth at Nationals in a second Olympics. Karen beat Ashley in the last 3 "major" competitions: Nationals last year, Worlds, and again at Nationals, so I doubt they'll bump her.

Outside of the top few, I really enjoyed Mariah Bell's skate. It's difficult to tell on TV but she's a beautiful skater and it looks like she skates with a lot of speed, strength, artistry, and great edges, although some of her jumps look a bit wonky.

 

[Miss Ice]

I watched the last two groups live. Enjoyed it, but overall the competition paled in comparison to Boston 2014, which I also attended.

- Honorable mention: Starr Andrews absolutely sparkled and gave an emotional, committed performance. I could tell that she really connected with her music. I think she's a talented singer and I think skating to her own version was gutsy and savvy -- but I have to say that in the arena, it sometimes sounded like a karaoke version. It was a bit strange when it switched to the Whitney Houston version. She got a huge standing ovation -- good for her for her clean performance.
- Mariah Bell - solid skate and I loved her guts, but her FS just wasn't the right vehicle. Really silly mistake on the 2A that ultimately didn't make a big difference.
- Ashley Wagner - I think the program has potential but there were a few moments where I found myself wondering if Ashley had forgotten or was ignoring her choreography. She appeared focused on her jumps and she did pay some attention to the performance, but overall, I wasn't greatly impressed by the technical or performance aspect. I don't agree with her placing higher in the FS than Karen Chen. She didn't have a meltdown and the audience was super happy about that, but I don't think she was wuzrubbed at all.
- Mirai Nagasu - had surprisingly good speed. Good for her for landing all her jumps. That 3A was very impressive live and she did land it perfectly in the warm-up. She didn't give up on the rest of the program even after the initial 3A wasn't perfect. Unfortunately, I did not care for the program at all. I found the choreography to be minimal and what was there barely reflected the music. The audience was really, really, really pulling for her -- but Mirai won't have that support in Korea. It was a great accomplishment for Mirai personally and I'm glad for her, but in terms of performance and program, I was left wanting much, much more.
- Angela Wang - she checked all the boxes for me in terms of musicality and interpretation...but something was still missing? Something intangible. Angela has a tough time connecting with audiences -- she doesn't project quite enough? Her mostly clean performance didn't get the reaction that I thought it should have.
- Karen Chen - she was committed to her choreography, performed to the music, projected to the audience, and gave a great performance overall. It wasn't perfect but her ceiling is higher than anyone else's. Nice edges and speed, and I'd have her first in PCS over all of the other ladies. Her lutzes are huge! Her spins were slower than usual and this performance wasn't her personal best, but she absolutely deserved to be on the podium, top 3, and she had better be going to Pyeongchang. For me, there is no question that Karen deserved to be ahead of Ashley Wagner and it shouldn't even have been that close.
- Bradie Tennell - nice jumps and it was refreshing to have a US lady who could nail all their jumps but I don't agree with her GOE and her PCS was absurd -- the choreography was awkwardly executed -- and some moments were just jarring, like the besti squat. :noshake: This performance doesn't compare to Gracie Gold's at 2014 US Nationals AT ALL (yes, even with Gracie's fall -- I stood for Gracie and it was an amazing performance) and I'd rank it behind Polina Edmund's 2014 performance there as well. She got a big standing O but the reaction to her score was not as unanimous -- I think some expected Mirai to win.

Wow, thank YOU for the amazing rundown from the rink! I have to say I thought I was the only one who thought Bradie's choreo was super awkward, especially her hunched over body and the besti squat. :noshake:

I also agree with what you said about Karen/Ashley. Quality really shows IRL, it seems, where there is no luxury of nice camera angles and panning views. I hope USFSA makes the right choice.

 

[brightphoton]

Gymnastics is not at all like this anymore. Used to be in the 70s maybe, but the average age of the gymnasts competing in the AA in 2016 was roughly 20 and 3 months.

I'm a 4 year fan of gymnastics. But I remember gymnastics regularly have "ooops birth certificate hehehe" and "they're not really 18" scandals. I remember one American team all retroactively got medals because they found out a team fudged ages.

Our gymnastics team was pretty young too. I remember there was a bit of a ballyhoo because Ally was the grandma of the team at age 22. Simone Biles was also pretty young in Brazil. Is she still competing?

Not to mention, 20 and 3 months? That's apparently REALLY old now

 

[frida80]

Well Pooja and Ting would be her competition right(Alysa isn't old enough, and the lower junior finishers really weren't any better than Amber)?

I read somewhere that Pooja doesn't have the minimum scores. So Amber vs. Ting for the second spot?

Neither Amber no Pooja have technicals minimums for JW. They would have to go to A February competition to get them.

It’s really unfortunate. USFS sent so many ladies to the JGP and a few to Asian Open and only Starr really did well at nationals. They should’ve sent more girls to junior B comps for experience and those technical minimums.

 

[IonGrey]

Chen vs. Wagner (Part 3/3)

This is the biggest part of the technical marks, and the biggest disparity in scores is also revealed here. For the sake of conserving space, I'll only list the jumps that I felt were judged unfairly towards Chen.

Short Program

Triple triple: Wagner did 3F3T<, Chen did 3Lz3T<. While Wagner received -1.9 GOE, Chen only got -1.4 GOE. Why? Both were underrotated, and I dont see a reason why Chen's underrotation was better than Wagners.

Long Program

Triple Triple: Wagner did 3F3T, Chen did 3Lz3T<. Wagner only received +0.70 GOE, Chen got away with a -0.50 GOE. I don't think I need to explain this any more; Wagner should have gotten at least +1, Chen should have gotten at least -1.

Lutz: Both underrotated. However, Wagner had -1.6 GOE, Chen had -0.70 GOE.

tl;dr Chen's underrotations were penalized much less severely than Wagners.

So in conclusion, I think Chen should have been scored 2-3 pts lower and Wagner 2-3 pts higher. I think this difference is more than just subjective opinions that come with judging in figure skating. Although I respect both for being amazing, talented skaters, I think there was something suspiciously off with the judging tonight.

 

[readernick]

The other thing that is different is that then Ashley was a legit medal threat. She'd scored and placed pretty well over the preceding season. When USFSA picked Ashley for Sochi, they were preserving a medal opportunity.

Throwing no shade to her fans, but nobody really thinks Ashley is a medal contender this time. The argument is over which of two girls should be sent, when Top 10 would be the highest reasonable result for either one of them?

Yes, I think most of us expect Karen to be sent. I don't really care either way. They are both not skating to their potential.

 

[TCAngel18]

You are kidding right? It was the ultimate PR nightmare. Twitter exploded. Some Asian reporters wrote articles about how racist it was. NBC has to switch up their coverage of opening and closing ceremonies. I noticed that in some shots they would name each of the skaters like Jason and Polina, but completely ignore Ashley’s existence. They were defending themselves for weeks. It was a horrible nightmare.

If I were USFS, I wouldn’t do this again. They have Bradie. Just focus on her and pivot. Otherwise the next three weeks will be all about poor little Karen and how evil USFS was to take away her dream.

Fair point.

I wasn’t on Twitter, or much social media then haha, I had a dumb phone at the time, so I didn’t see that, and you are probably right. I just followed the NBC narrative. I just did some quick looking, and there was backlash I wasn’t aware of.

There IS A Way to fix it, while adhering to guidelines, but still avoiding potential controversy from EITHER side.

Karen scored higher than Ashley, but I and others believe she shouldn’t have. So what you do; make this a wash for both of them.

Like other posters suggested, a shootout at OK Corral.

4 continents. In Asia. With an international panel. That way we see, apples to apples, who comes out on top. That skater gets the Olympic nod.

They do that often with European Championships, to decide world or Olympic spots.

That way, if Karen wins, she proved she could do it with an international panel, with no bias for or against her. The same with Ashley. Scores will level out to what they should be, and there won’t be a Federation in the background trying to force a narrative.

 

[shiroKJ]

You’re right! An Olympics in Asia! I didn’t even think about that! I cannot see a good scenario coming from this if they chose Ashley.

It's a trainwreck waiting to happen, especially if you think about the possibility of the "controversy" catching steam in the Chinese media (taiwan/china relations aside).

 

[frida80]

I'm a 4 year fan of gymnastics. But I remember gymnastics regularly have "ooops birth certificate hehehe" and "they're not really 18" scandals. I remember one American team all retroactively got medals because they found out a team fudged ages.

Our gymnastics team was pretty young too. I remember there was a bit of a ballyhoo because Ally was the grandma of the team at age 22. Simone Biles was also pretty young in Brazil. Is she still competing?

China in the year 2000 lied about a young gymnast age. The US got their bronze medals in the mail 8 years after the fact.

 

[skatesofgold]

I'm a 4 year fan of gymnastics. But I remember gymnastics regularly have "ooops birth certificate hehehe" and "they're not really 18" scandals. I remember one American team all retroactively got medals because they found out a team fudged ages.

Our gymnastics team was pretty young too. I remember there was a bit of a ballyhoo because Ally was the grandma of the team at age 22. Simone Biles was also pretty young in Brazil. Is she still competing?

Not to mention, 20 and 3 months? That's apparently REALLY old now

Why do athletes have to be well into their 20s to earn your respect?

 

[frida80]

I'd love to see Ting or Kaitlyn at JW. But maybe they won't send Kaitlyn because she doesn't get her jumps around.

I think Ting would be fantastic for JW. But botching her SP narrowly took away that chance. She really is fantastic.