Ladies LP scores question

[Bennett]

It seems that there have been some debates over the GOEs and PCSs in the ladies LP.

I have had questions about some of these scores in this event, but find it somewhat difficult to really make sense in myself because of the subjectivity involved in these marks.

Any thoughts on particular scores that you had questions about?

 

[*Sniper*]

This thread is not going to turn into another The Most Talented One Ever vs. That B**ch, is it?

 

[carolinefan177]

This thread is not going to turn into another The Most Talented One Ever vs. That B**ch, is it?

 

[feraina]

Let's see. We already have two threads on Mao (vs. Yu-na), one on Caroline, one on Kimmie, plus the original one on the LP. Do we really need another thread on judging in the LP?

Come on, Bennett, 'fess up, who's your favorite skater that you *really* want to talk about? Would it be the poor wrap-queen Yukari or the Italian darling Carolina?

 

[Bennett]

Let's see. We already have two threads on Mao (vs. Yu-na), one on Caroline, one on Kimmie, plus the original one on the LP. Do we really need another thread on judging in the LP?

Come on, Bennett, 'fess up, who's your favorite skater that you *really* want to talk about? Would it be the poor wrap-queen Yukari or the Italian darling Carolina?

I have had a bunch of questions as many other people did. But I did not necessarily intend to ask people to focus on my favorite skaters, because of the awareness that there is always controversy in FS judging.

But I just felt it getting a bit more difficult for me to understand what's going in GOEs and PCSs in this event overall.

My first impression was that GOEs might be getting more important than before, relative to the importance of the base value. But I do not quite understand how GOEs were rewarded, which makes it difficult for me to make sense of the TESs. I guess I should study the rule book to better understand it. But sometimes the things that are deducted (e.g., wrong edges, two foot, number of revolutions in spins, and the time to hold the position in spins and spirals) cannot be observed very well by just enjoying the performance, which may be another challenging part for a lay person to follow the sport.

My second impression was that the way PCSs were determined was not really clear. But I never quite understood the way PCSs was determined.

I try to sort out my questions:

Are PCSs "reputation" scores (e.g., Did Caroline being inexperienced affect her PCSs?; Did Yuna's reputation as being the favorite affect her PCSs?; Did Mao's failure in SP affect her PCS in LP)?

Do PCSs follow TESs (Could Kimmie have scored higher on her PCSs if she had landed more jumps?; Would Carolina have gotten lower PCSs if she did not land jumps)?

Does the mark on skating skills determine the range of scores you can get on the other four components (e.g., Could Caroline have gotten higher PCSs on interpretation and choreos if she skated faster)?

Does the starting order affect the mark (e.g., If Mao had skated at the last, could her PCSs have been higher)?

Did Yukari's leg wrap affect her PCSs?

Why was Carolina's transition score so low compared to the other four components?

 

[Skye]

I don't want to open up another can of worms, but since Bennett has made a proposal, I would like to know why

Kostner got +0.20 for her lv4 spiral sequence in the FS. I don't care if she barely made up for the 3-seconds even while struggling on the Bielmann(sp) position, but at least the judges should have hammered her with -GOEs.

Asada and the lv4 on her final spin. She never made the donut and her speed dropped noticeably. She and Meissner were also got away with lv4 on their combination spins in the SP when they were short of revolutions.

How Zhang's 3F+3T can score the same as Kostner's 3F+3T combination. Kostner had a slight dip of the upper body on the landing, but the spring and ice coverage of both jumps were far superior.

I can't comment on the inconsistency of the "e" mark in Nakano's flips as there is no clear picture that shows her take-off edges properly. (The overall camera work was terrible throughout the entire event.)

Kim received +0.80 for her spiral sequence in the FS where she had excellent speed and deeper edges, but was gifted with +1.00 in the SP even with a slight bobble.

 

[Bennett]

Asada and the lv4 on her final spin. She never made the donut and her speed dropped noticeably. She and Meissner were also got away with lv4 on their combination spins in the SP when they were short of revolutions.

How Zhang's 3F+3T can score the same as Kostner's 3F+3T combination. Kostner had a slight dip of the upper body on the landing, but the spring and ice coverage of both jumps were far superior.

I can't comment on the inconsistency of the "e" mark in Nakano's flips as there is no clear picture that shows her take-off edges properly. (The overall camera work was terrible throughout the entire event.)

Yeah, I also questioned Mao's lv4 final spin. She kind of messed up with it. She did not get plus GOE, which is a good thing. But I am a bit surprised that she got level 4 and did not get minus GOE.

I also wondered if her 2A-2l-2l was a bit underrorated. But it was neither called or deducted.

I was also not sure if she two-footed her 3F-3T because it was at the end of the rink. The judging were mixed.

I also wondered about Zhang's 3F+3T versus Kostner's 3F+3T combination.

I couldn't tell Nakano's lip, either, due to the lack of closer visual aid.

 

[feraina]

I also wondered about Zhang's 3F+3T versus Kostner's 3F+3T combination.

I think in Kostner's case, maybe her height and distance were counter-balanced by the telegraphed entry and the awkward landing. Her combo was somewhat squashed to the end of the rink, because her telegraphing made her run out of space. There are three components to the jump: entry, in-air, and landing. She has great in-air height and distance, but she was faulty on the entry and the landing. Caroline, on the other hand, has ok entry, good landing, and adequate but not great in-air height/distance. Maybe these things balance out in the judges' minds.

 

[feraina]

I agree with calling Nakano's flip a lip, b/c when I watched it live I thought it was a lutz , but the entry was unusual flor a lutz, so I was quite confused.

 

[feraina]

I was surprised when I found out that Kostner got a level 4 spiral (with + GOE?!) and Mao with a level 4 spin, because they both looked really screwed up to me. But I will have to look at those more closely...

 

[carolinefan177]

I wonder how it is that Kim got 132 for her program with a fall on the loop and only a point higher at cup of Russia with no fall...did her spins and such improve that much since then?

Sometimes, I wonder why Caroline gets 0 GOEs for her spirals sequences since I have not seen anyone, other than Mirai, with that kind of stretch and especially that last biellmann with the unbent leg.

I wonder how Nakano's 3A scored higher than Mao's (and I saw Mao's in slow motion, and it wasn't two footed)

and I'm not even going to say anything about Carolina's spiral...it was just blah. I know she has deep edges, but the spiral position, and especially, the biellman, are not that great



I wonder what Mao was thinking when she learned she lost the GPF title again

 

[bekalc]

Some of Yu-na's jumps were a little shaky and not as on as they were at the GPF (that's my guess at least) And I think she got credit for all level four spins.

 

[Bennett]

I think in Kostner's case, maybe her height and distance were counter-balanced by the telegraphed entry and the awkward landing. Her combo was somewhat squashed to the end of the rink, because her telegraphing made her run out of space. There are three components to the jump: entry, in-air, and landing. She has great in-air height and distance, but she was faulty on the entry and the landing. Caroline, on the other hand, has ok entry, good landing, and adequate but not great in-air height/distance. Maybe these things balance out in the judges' minds.

Thank you for your explanations! That addressed some of the "???"'s that I have had

 

[Skye]

I think in Kostner's case, maybe her height and distance were counter-balanced by the telegraphed entry and the awkward landing. Her combo was somewhat squashed to the end of the rink, because her telegraphing made her run out of space. There are three components to the jump: entry, in-air, and landing. She has great in-air height and distance, but she was faulty on the entry and the landing. Caroline, on the other hand, has ok entry, good landing, and adequate but not great in-air height/distance. Maybe these things balance out in the judges' minds.

Yeah, I think that makes perfect sense, but when you realize that Kostner gets a whopping +0.80 for her 3Lz in the SP when it actually is NOT a triple jump "out of footwork" you're left scratching your head.

 

[Bennett]

Sometimes, I wonder why Caroline gets 0 GOEs for her spirals sequences since I have not seen anyone, other than Mirai, with that kind of stretch and especially that last biellmann with the unbent leg.

I wonder how Nakano's 3A scored higher than Mao's (and I saw Mao's in slow motion, and it wasn't two footed)

I feel that judges do not seem to reward for beautiful positions as much as they do for edges, with an exception of Sasha Cohen.

Most of the judges gave Mao -1. I wonder if there are any explanations for that deduction other than two-foot. Does anyone know?

Besides, her "two-foot" tends to be so subtle that it makes me wonder if it really deserves -1 deduction, especially when the other things were all great (e.g., entrance, air-position, flow after the landing). It seems that you cannot get away from automatic deduction regardless of the other qualities that are superb.

 

[Skye]

I wonder how it is that Kim got 132 for her program with a fall on the loop and only a point higher at cup of Russia with no fall...did her spins and such improve that much since then?

She had higher GOEs on her other jumps (as mentioned above, they were not so secure in CoR) and also pushed the 2A+3T behind the 2 minute mark, and upgraded the levels of her spins as well.

Sometimes, I wonder why Caroline gets 0 GOEs for her spirals sequences since I have not seen anyone, other than Mirai, with that kind of stretch and especially that last biellmann with the unbent leg.

and I'm not even going to say anything about Carolina's spiral...it was just blah. I know she has deep edges, but the spiral position, and especially, the biellman, are not that great

Spirals are not all about stretch and positions, and Zhang does not cover as much ice nor does she have the deep edges of Kostner.

I agree that Kostner shouldn't be getting those points when she messes up in the Bielmann but her spirals are first rate other than that.

I wonder how Nakano's 3A scored higher than Mao's (and I saw Mao's in slow motion, and it wasn't two footed)

8 out of 10 judges saw the two-foot, whether you did or not, and it was also mentioned by the Japanese commentators. Nakano's 3A was lower in height, but cleanly rotated and landed.

 

[bekalc]

I personally don't blame the judges for rewarding edges more than positions because well It's figure skating so edges should be first and foremost. Now if you can have a skater who can combine beautiful positions and edges (Mao-chan) that's divine.. Caroline got nice GOES on her spiral in the long I believe.

 

[netnuts]

I personally don't blame the judges for rewarding edges more than positions because well It's figure skating so edges should be first and foremost. Now if you can have a skater who can combine beautiful positions and edges (Mao-chan) that's divine.. Caroline got nice GOES on her spiral in the long I believe.

Stop your mindless rantings. It's so annoying. You jumped from one board after another to make those tiresome argument. You got creamed by other posters on MK forum ... You are by far the MOST annoying poster here.

http://www.mkforum.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19937&page=15

Originally Posted by bekalc
Her only problem is that when she gets nervous she sometimes goes to fast, and rushes herself.

Originally Posted by bekalc
I never said that Kostner had only one problem, but I think her main issue is that she skates to fast....When she slows down it's much better...

Hmm... were you drunk and then had a black out?

Or is this a new expression kids are using today, as in

 

[fourclover]

Stop your mindless rantings. It's so annoying...You are by far the MOST annoying poster here.

Look who's talking

 

[Ms.Anthrope]

Stop your mindless rantings. It's so annoying. You jumped from one board after another to make those tiresome argument. You got creamed by other posters on MK forum ... You are by far the MOST annoying poster here.

Pot? Kettle? Black? :sheesh: