Women's FS - 2022 Olympics: Thoughts?

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

There is nothing pointless about Plushy's arms and hands. Oh, no. Not Evan, again. That's twice tonight. Those two guys are quite different in style, to say the least. My country's commentators aren't exactly Belinda Noonan. Speaking of Belinda, I caught her version of the men's programs at Beijing and it was like watching a different Olympics. Super analysis. No snark. No propaganda. Back to Evan in the black/snake unitard designed by Vera Wang to cut off blood flow . . . where was I? In order to have superior artistry, you have to have some to begin with. That whole mess of an OG was debunked years ago and it turned out the judges liked only one thing about Evan - his spins. Evan is the one who called a guy a loser if he didn't do a quad in his program. So despite getting injured before the OG and not chancing a quad, I had little sympathy for him because he had an obnoxious attitude. Did I care Plushy went on the offensive yelling about USFS? Nope. He was right. Figure skating was in the toilet in my country compared to where it was in the 90's.

Ask yourself this - what would Trusova be skating like today were she with Plushy all this time? Honestly? I think Plushy is too artistic for her and she just wants to jump. He knows there are two sides of a coin to becoming a great skater, alas, I do not believe she cares. I know you like her, but surely in seeing Plushy's skating, and her skating, you can see a world of difference and why he achieved a type of rockstar status, so to speak.

Edit: I started this comment based on what I read in yours but most of it is just directed towards anyone reading it)

No, it was the judging at Russian Nats 2020, I bet you anything that if her skating clean with still superior tech content hadn't been underscored to the point that she realized her Olympic team spot could be in jeopardy she would have stayed with Plushenko.

She left Eteri the right way in the correct window with nothing bad said about her and she returned with no drama either. Unlike all the others who have left and/or returned. But if I recall correctly Plushenko wanted her to commit to several years but she had only intended to go for a year at first and did not want to commit to several more years, especially considering Russian Nationals 2020.

And didn't she focus on "artistry" to the point of training across the city with someone so she could get extra time working with a dancer? She worked so hard. I'm getting sick and tired of this narrative that she doesn't focus on improving to skate like other people's ideal of components.

Personally I've always like her programs, in fact this year they are the some of the best she's had, but it was cool to see her skate to such typical lyrical short program last year. I always knew she could. Doing a quad or multiple quads or a 3 Axel is hard. Skating to music like that is pretty easy. I know people will jump all over this and try to say that's not true but I think they are deluding themselves. People's opinions are subjective and the judges scores were totally rigged to put Anna and Kamila each with a significant error above her in December 2020.

Sasha has always skated to the music, if you don't like her skating that's fine. It is subjective opinion but no one should pretend it is objective fact. I watch Sasha's programs all the time, the other ladies not so much. And it's not because of the quads necessarily although that's part of it otherwise it would not be her SP programs that I watch just as much. It's because of everything she does. Sasha just has the it factor, like Yuzuru. And remember how there's people who despise his skating and try to say he's "boring". That's why I comment obliquely about what I think of other skaters' skating because I never want another fan to feel the way I do when I read the negative comments this forum heaps on Sasha.

Everyone always tries to say Sasha does not have "this", she doesn't have "that. Honestly what would you (anyone reading this) say if someone gave their true negative opinions of the your favorite skater all the time. Wouldn't you get tired of it if it was only their programs of the season that you could stand to watch? And do not mistake me, I'm not saying that specific performances by other skaters are not appealing to me too, just that Sasha's are always re-watchable.

I want to make it very clear to anyone reading this who has ever said things along the lines of: Sasha is a jump robot, she skates through the music, no artistry etc, that there are many people who love watching her skating so those comment are by the very existence of those who prefer to watch Sasha's skating proved to be false.

 

[yume]

Yeah, I've thought this as well, she was the skater coming into seniors that we all talked about not if she would win, but by how much and that just hasn't really been the case. I went Youtube searched this, but its a very vague show of Shcherbakova's journey to Olympic gold and it touches briefly that she was the first in practice to land a quad and was prepping for international competitions but then she got hurt and while she was in a cast Trusova goes out and lands the first quads in the competition and wins titles in the junior circuit it kinda hits at the thought that she was so successful in juniors but it hasn't particularly materialized in the seniors

Shcherbakova had the biggest hype in novice level actually. She was already praised for her artistic skills and had the first instaquad. She was invited to dream on ice (popular ice show) in Japan before even debuting in juniors because there was such a big hype on internet. But she broke her leg and Trusova got all the spotlight for herself. I've always said that Trusova got lucky because i don't think she would have dominated during her first junior season if Shcherbakova had competed.
I don't remember when she broke her arm but girl has her fair share of injuries and illnesses. She got that gold medal purely on her grit. It wasn't easy. I don't like her skating but i like that kind of determination, that's why i'm glad she won.

 

[Draculus]

Yes it is right. Doping is wrong.

"Doping is wrong" does not equal "once you tested positive you are guilty until proven otherwise."
Stealing is also wrong, but there rules are different.

 

[Mathman]

"Doping is wrong" does not equal "once you tested positive you are guilty until proven otherwise."
Stealing is also wrong, but there rules are different.

The rules are different because stealing is a crime. If you are accused of stealing, the case comers up in court as "the people (that is, the government) versus John Doe" and if the the courts decide against John he goes to jail. Natuirally every safegurd is put in place to ensure that the government does not ride roughshod over the rights of the individual, who is therefore assumed innocent. The burden of proof is on the government.

In the case of doping in sports the accused person has not violated a law but merely a voluntary agreement that the person has made with his fellow athletes and with sports regulatory bodies. WADA cannot send people to jail or deprive them of life, liberty or property.

 

[Shayuki]

I’m willing to bet Raf has never treated Nathan like this. It’s not necessary. It’s expedient. It’s convenient.

If it was my kid, no way on this earth. There are a lot more important things than medals in this world.

Raf had a bit of a reputation, you know... Do you think he was known as a nice coach or something?

 

[surimi]

My very brief thought on the FS: most of the women in the top 12 held it together admirably. And my personal favorites were Yelim and Gubanova.

 

[Draculus]

The rules are different because stealing is a crime.

Is there something in criminal law about doping in US? I heard it is, but I may be wrong.

If you are accused of stealing, the case comers up in court as "the people (that is, the government) versus John Doe" and if the the courts decide against John he goes to jail. Natuirally every safegurd is put in place to ensure that the government does not ride roughshod over the rights of the individual, who is therefore assumed innocent. The burden of proof is on the government.
In the case of doping in sports the accused person has not violated a law but merely a voluntary agreement that the person has made with his fellow athletes and with sports regulatory bodies. WADA cannot send people to jail or deprive them of life, liberty or property.

Well, if you read posts here, ppl would like to send Eteri to prison, but nvm.
'a law but merely a voluntary agreement' - well, any law is a 'voluntary agreement' between people, if it is not a law of nature.

I know that rules are different. And sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Is it crime or it is just a respectable commerce?
But still, my original question was 'are these rules ok, may be they are wrong?' Agreement can be changed.

 

[TontoK]

Is there something in criminal law about doping in US? I heard it is, but I may be wrong.

Well, if you read posts here, ppl would like to send Eteri to prison, but nvm.
'a law but merely a voluntary agreement' - well, any law is a 'voluntary agreement' between people, if it is not a law of nature.

I know that rules are different. And sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Is it crime or it is just a respectable commerce?
But still, my original question was 'are these rules ok, may be they are wrong?' Agreement can be changed.

Well... that depends. Would Eteri be brought up on criminal charges for being a coach, even a demanding coach? No.

But, hypothetically, she could be brought up on charges if it were discovered that she physically abused the children under her supervision or if she drugged them.

I don't know... and again I stress "hypothetically"... would these same actions result in criminal charges in Russia? I genuinely don't know how the law works there.

Edit: I don't know if doping is a criminal offense for a consenting adult. I can't recall an athlete being criminally charged with steroid use, for example. But I'm pretty sure I remember cases where those providing the steroids have been - but I can't recall a specific case.

 

[Arigato]

I bet you anything that if her skating clean with still superior tech content hadn't been underscored to the point that [...]

It has to be said, there are thousands of people all over the net who have a habit of using their favorite mantra: "If her skating hadn't been underscored, X, Y, or Z would be true." It's so overused, in fact, I find myself in shock if someone doesn't resort to employing it in order to sway others. "Her" does not merely apply to Trusova. Not by a longshot. It applies to many female skaters.

 

[Mathman]

Raf had a bit of a reputation, you know... Do you think he was known as a nice coach or something?

Arununian has given sevearal interviews in which he was asked about coaching in America as contrasted with Russia. He basically said that in Russia the coach is boss. He had to get used to the American system where the coach is hired by the skaters' parents and is essentially in the position of employee. (He who pays the piper calls the tune.)

At the 2018 Olympics mens short program, Nathan Chen went against the wishes of his coach and attempted both a quad flip and a quad Lutz, with (so it was reported) the blessings of Nathan's parents. The result was a diaster than cost Nathan the gold medal. I bet it took all of Raf's will power not to go off on Nathan and the whole American system.

 

[Mathman]

Here's what I think.

About Eteri, thetre is no law against being a stern taskmaster. There is no law against being a mean lady (not that I am accusing Eteri T. of this). There is no law against verbally bawling out a student who has not parformed up to the expected standard (athough I wish that they wouldn't).

About Kamilla Valieva, I hope she is cleared of all suspicion in the subsequent investigations, that she skates at 2022 Worlds and wins, and that this is first of 3 World championships leading up to 2026. (Although if Trusova wins the upcoming Worlds, that would be OK, too. )

 

[Arigato]

But that’s the thing. Obviously, they can be dangerous and have side effects, but even then, people still do it.

After all the years of research into steroids, you would think nobody will want to take them, but business is booming.

Making it legal also makes it safer for the athletes because they wouldn’t need to go to these shady doctors and trainers to get gear.

Why stop there? Go for cocaine legalization. Faster, higher, stronger. Right? Let's cover up our physical weaknesses so we can all pretend we're king of the jungle. If only for a day.

The Olympic spirit burns bright!

Spoiler

/sarcasm

 

[el henry]

Raf had a bit of a reputation, you know... Do you think he was known as a nice coach or something?

Yes, among those who actually know him.

Raf is, and I say this in the kindest way, a blowhard. He likes his reputation. But everyone knows he's a teddy bear underneath.

He let Adam Rippon sleep in his basement when he had nowhere to live. He gave Nathan's family their coaching money back, by slipping it to baby Nathan. Although he likes to present that he is mean and tough, not once have I heard anyone from his group say that he is standoffish, that he trains quads to the death (quite the opposite), that his camp is "win World medals or else" kind of camp. Otherwise, Mariah, Adam, etc., almost anyone except Nathan, would not train there.

To say to a skater on the worst day of her life "Why did you give up"? That's not strict, that's stupid. It requires no particular coaching expertise, I can do that. And I can't imagine Raf doing it. And I am faaaar from his biggest fan.

 

[Mathman]

- well, any law is a 'voluntary agreement' between people...

"That to secure (the inalienable rights of the people), governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."

 

[Mathman]

Otherwise, Mariah, Adam, etc., almost anyone except Nathan, would not train there.

My favorite Raf moment was once (I believe it was U.S. Nationals a couple of years ago) Mariah blew a jump and it cost her the championship. In the kiss and cry Raf looked all sad and morose, until Mariah poked and prodded him into a big smile.

 

[el henry]

...
'a law but merely a voluntary agreement' - well, any law is a 'voluntary agreement' between people, if it is not a law of nature.

I know that rules are different. And sometimes it's hard to distinguish. Is it crime or it is just a respectable commerce?
But still, my original question was 'are these rules ok, may be they are wrong?' Agreement can be changed.

Criminal law is not a "voluntary agreement". It is imposed upon you. Suzy Q may not like the stop sign at the end of the street. Suzy Q may think the stop sign is ridiculous, causes more accidents than it prevents, doesn't see the point. Suzy Q may never have agreed to that stop sign. But when she runs it, she has violated traffic laws.

Consent to WADA jurisdiction is more like employee agreements. If Suzy Q wants to work for Employer A, Employer A can say "You must bake apple pie every Thursday (The employer is not a bakery ). If you don't bake apple pie every Thursday, you can't work here". Suzy Q may hate apple pie. She may think it's the stupidest rule ever. But she is subject to that rule as part of an agreement.

If she doesn't want to bake apple pie, she doesn't take the job, even if it is the only job in her chosen field in 5000 miles. If a skater doesn't like WADA, don't skate in competitions subject to WADA.

That is the difference.

 

[Mathman]

Although I think Suzie Q could bring action against the employer for maininging a sexist workplace -- I bet the male employees were not required to bake an apple pie for the boss.

 

[el henry]

Although I think Suzie Q could bring action against the employer for maininging a sexist workplace -- I bet the male employees were not required to bake an apple pie for the boss.

I'm trying to keep this simple here. OK, Steve Q is subject to the same requirement.

 

[reneerose]

To respond to the OP, my faves in this comp were: Mariah, Karen, Wakaba, Kaori, and Alysa. They all rose above the scandal surrounding them. Very impressive ladies!

 

[el henry]

Arununian has given sevearal interviews in which he was asked about coaching in America as contrasted with Russia. He basically said that in Russia the coach is boss. He had to get used to the American system where the coach is hired by the skaters' parents and is essentially in the position of employee. (He who pays the piper calls the tune.)

At the 2018 Olympics mens short program, Nathan Chen went against the wishes of his coach and attempted both a quad flip and a quad Lutz, with (so it was reported) the blessings of Nathan's parents. The result was a diaster than cost Nathan the gold medal. I bet it took all of Raf's will power not to go off on Nathan and the whole American system.

He has also said that he learned that it was not good practice to call skaters "fat" or to emphasize weight in training. (although I think he slipped every once in a while)

Anyone who thinks that Raf just lifted "Russian" training techniques (whatever they are) whole cloth to the US: (and I'm not saying anyone said this here) is sadly misinformed.